Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:00 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote: Didn't Cabba get the crap beaten out of him before he went Super Saiyan? That would account for the difference in their performances.
Super Saiyan rejuvenates you and renders previous wounds irrelevant. See the case of Goku vs Freeza.
Bringing up another point here - Freeza 100% > Super Saiyan goku.
Goku outright says he's the strongest in the universe now, which was the entire point.
Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga)
.
At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.
However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:09 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.

He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.
I disagree there were some panels where they were even, Freeza even goes through a kamehameha.

He lost power, he admits it himself. We have to take the 100% in context, we can't just ignore everything that happened beforehand.

Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:15 pm

apex_pretador wrote: Bringing up another point here - Freeza 100% > Super Saiyan goku.

Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga). However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
So, 100% damaged freeza =< SS Goku (new) << 100% Healthy freeza
I generally go with the idea that the previous beatings Freeza got ended up diminishing his stamina rather than affecting his actual power output.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:23 pm

LightBing wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.

He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.
I disagree there were some panels where they were even, Freeza even goes through a kamehameha.
So blocking an attack with a barrier makes you even with your opponent? The complete ass kicking that was the entire battle just didn't happen?
He lost power, he admits it himself. We have to take the 100% in context, we can't just ignore everything that happened beforehand.
There's no context to ignore. 100% is 100%. When Freeza said 100% power, he meant 100% power, likely because his transformation rejuvenated him the same way his previous ones did.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:50 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.

He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.
I disagree there were some panels where they were even, Freeza even goes through a kamehameha.
So blocking an attack with a barrier makes you even with your opponent? The complete ass kicking that was the entire battle just didn't happen?
He lost power, he admits it himself. We have to take the 100% in context, we can't just ignore everything that happened beforehand.
There's no context to ignore. 100% is 100%. When Freeza said 100% power, he meant 100% power, likely because his transformation rejuvenated him the same way his previous ones did.
Read again what I wrote they were even for a few panels, I said nothing about the whole fight. Overall Goku dominated, that much is clear.

Yes there is. You can't just pick and choose. Freeza said he was damaged, so much that he had to made it clear that he could still kill everybody there. Then he says he would go 100%, did he say his wounds were healed? No, he should because the visuals tell us he's the same mess as pre-100%.
Even when he went to his true form he regenerated his tail and all previous damage, here he stays the same.

100% is very much be situational. I can lift weights all morning and go carry furniture in the afternoon. I'll give 100% but obviously my muscles will be fatigued. Does Freeza look like someone who's at 100%?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Analytic » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:58 pm

Opinions for Vegeta's battle power against Jeice but before he naps? I think 250,000.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:41 pm

LightBing wrote: Read again what I wrote they were even for a few panels, I said nothing about the whole fight. Overall Goku dominated, that much is clear.
They weren't even for a few panels. It was one-sided from start to finish.
Yes there is. You can't just pick and choose. Freeza said he was damaged, so much that he had to made it clear that he could still kill everybody there. Then he says he would go 100%, did he say his wounds were healed? No, he should because the visuals tell us he's the same mess as pre-100%.
Even when he went to his true form he regenerated his tail and all previous damage, here he stays the same.
Except Freeza said he'd go to 100% and made no reference to being below 100%, which would pretty dang important considering the whole point was that he'd finally been surpassed. He of all people would bring this up as an excuse.

No one would actually be disputing that 100% means 100% unless they were trying to justify made-up power levels.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:04 pm

I don't see the fight being one-sided the whole time. Freeza fought fairly well against SSJ Goku until his stamina started to drop imo.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:24 pm

ahill1 wrote:I don't see the fight being one-sided the whole time. Freeza fought fairly well against SSJ Goku until his stamina started to drop imo.
I wouldn't say it was one-sided, but Goku did have the advantage throughout the fight. In fact, the only time I saw Freeza really get the drop on Goku was during that Kamehameha/Barrier struggle that the two had, and that was because Freeza ducked around it and smacked into Goku while he was off-guard.

As far as I'm concerned, Goku surpassed Freeza in that fight, period. Regardless of whether or not Goku and Freeza were at their best or if they were weakened from the previous fight, it wouldn't fit the theme that Goku only won because of Freeza's previous injuries. Sometimes you have to look past the in-universe conditions and remember that this is a work of fiction, and that the author has a reason for writing events the way he does. The point of the fight was to show that Goku well and truly surpassed Freeza, that he triumphed over the one who brought his people to near extinction and the one who killed his best friend.

It's the same argument I make when people question the base Goku can't beat Freeza thing from Battle of Gods. If the statement were untrue, it would've been contested or proven wrong at some point. What reason wold the author have to put it in there and never have anyone question it if it weren't true?

Whoops, went of on a tangent there.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:24 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Except Freeza said he'd go to 100% and made no reference to being below 100%, which would pretty dang important considering the whole point was that he'd finally been surpassed. He of all people would bring this up as an excuse.

No one would actually be disputing that 100% means 100% unless they were trying to justify made-up power levels.
I concede, looking at it again specially Goku lines, Freeza has to be at full power. Unfortunately it basically forgets the first part of the fight, for a full power struggle. Although there's precedent for Freeza's regeneration as seen when he performed his transformations.

Now did Goku also received a recovery? It would be unique in the series since SSJ is never show to restore characters. He says nothing about it. Which makes me think SSJ is a boost, since whatever injury's affected Goku only did so to his base. SSJ would be unaffected and still be enough to defeat Freeza. Since Goku's base should be minuscule compared to Freeza.

I don't see the point of your last sentence, I didn't put forward any number and even if I did this would be the right place. Was that an attempt to undermine my opinion?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Khin » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:37 pm

After reading the Strength Checker again. I pretty much agree with RandomGuy here. Freeza has to be in his 100% Power at that time, or else this line wouldn't sense.
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Not to mention in the Mecha Arc, Freeza didn't said anything about how he was beaten by Goku because was injured or something.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:51 am

Now did Goku also received a recovery? It would be unique in the series since SSJ is never show to restore characters. He says nothing about it. Which makes me think SSJ is a boost, since whatever injury's affected Goku only did so to his base. SSJ would be unaffected and still be enough to defeat Freeza. Since Goku's base should be minuscule compared to Freeza.
It did recharge him. He later reverts to his base form and he's fine, while before the transformation he couldn't even move to the point where Piccolo had to save him from drowning.
I don't see the point of your last sentence, I didn't put forward any number and even if I did this would be the right place. Was that an attempt to undermine my opinion?
It was trying to pinpoint the author's intent by looking at it from the perspective of a normal reader. The point was that, as written, the sequence makes no sense if Freeza is below 100%, and that the average reader wouldn't think he was. Hence Toriyama's intent was almost certainly to have him at 100%.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:15 pm

I agree. Freeza had to be at 100%, otherwise it wouldn't make sense IMO. 100% means 100%. Freeza could have lost a bit of power after his Nova Strike though.

I just respectfully disagree that SSJ Goku was owning Freeza from the beginning, mainly after reading this thread:

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8397852/3/

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:32 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
apex_pretador wrote: Bringing up another point here - Freeza 100% > Super Saiyan goku.

Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga). However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
So, 100% damaged freeza =< SS Goku (new) << 100% Healthy freeza
I generally go with the idea that the previous beatings Freeza got ended up diminishing his stamina rather than affecting his actual power output.
Why so? Where do the 20 million points (power loss) come from?

RandomGuy96 wrote:Goku outright says he's the strongest in the universe now, which was the entire point.
Goku says freeza is the strongest in the universe.
Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga)
.
At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.
If anything, Freeza had the advantage beofre porunga appeared. You need to check the fight again.
However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.
[/quote]
Where do the ~24 million PL points come from? Or you are saying that freeza took 0 damage from genki dama? Despite him saying he did nearly die? Or he wasn't referring to his "current" 100%?

RandomGuy96 wrote:
LightBing wrote:He lost power, he admits it himself. We have to take the 100% in context, we can't just ignore everything that happened beforehand.
There's no context to ignore. 100% is 100%. When Freeza said 100% power, he meant 100% power, likely because his transformation rejuvenated him the same way his previous ones did.
He never transformed after his FINAL FORM. Final form is final form. 100% varies with condition, but final form is always final form, unless freeza had an ultimate evolution.

Also, I don't remember Freeza eating a senzu thet goku threw at him so that he could recover his energy. Am I missing something?

DanielSSJ wrote: I wouldn't say it was one-sided, but Goku did have the advantage throughout the fight. In fact, the only time I saw Freeza really get the drop on Goku was during that Kamehameha/Barrier struggle that the two had, and that was because Freeza ducked around it and smacked into Goku while he was off-guard.
Goku NEVER had the advantage before freeza's stamina started to drop (after porunga).
As far as I'm concerned, Goku surpassed Freeza in that fight, period. Regardless of whether or not Goku and Freeza were at their best or if they were weakened from the previous fight, it wouldn't fit the theme that Goku only won because of Freeza's previous injuries.
I'm not saying goku only won due to injuries of freeza. Even if they both were fresh, Goku would've won like he did in RoF, which was made to be an alternate take on freeza arc IMO.
Sometimes you have to look past the in-universe conditions and remember that this is a work of fiction, and that the author has a reason for writing events the way he does.
The author had a reason to only get freeza down after stamina drop, not without that.
The author had a reason to have the fight even before that point
The author had a reason to show freeza heavily, HEAVILY damaged
The author had a reason to ask gohan say freeza is not even close to namek levels when he was fodderized by trunks
The point of the fight was to show that Goku well and truly surpassed Freeza, that he triumphed over the one who brought his people to near extinction and the one who killed his best friend.
Goku has shown again and again that he doesn't need power advantage to truly surpass someone.
It's the same argument I make when people question the base Goku can't beat Freeza thing from Battle of Gods. If the statement were untrue, it would've been contested or proven wrong at some point. What reason wold the author have to put it in there and never have anyone question it if it weren't true?
Not sure how base goku << Freeza situation relates here
Khin wrote:After reading the Strength Checker again. I pretty much agree with RandomGuy here. Freeza has to be in his 100% Power at that time, or else this line wouldn't sense.
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Not to mention in the Mecha Arc, Freeza didn't said anything about how he was beaten by Goku because was injured or something.
That can refer to the current best / current 100%.
I fail to see how the incredibly huge power loss from genki dama is recovered.

ahill1 wrote:I agree. Freeza had to be at 100%, otherwise it wouldn't make sense IMO. 100% means 100%. Freeza could have lost a bit of power after his Nova Strike though.

I just respectfully disagree that SSJ Goku was owning Freeza from the beginning, mainly after reading this thread:

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8397852/3/
and power loss is power loss unless healed by senzu or dende. How was the power loss healed?
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:32 am

There is Freeza's line in RoF, where he decides to go to Final Form straight away, because he was caught off guard "the last time."
Now he only ever faced Goku in his final form, so the implication that he didn't use his final form right from the start against Goku is bull.
He could be referring to the entire group of course, but he only seems to be focusing on Goku. A case of Toriyama forgetfulness perhaps, but it might offer some insight into what his own thoughts are on their previous battle, mainly Freeza feeling he got caught off-guard and so the fight didn't go as it would have, if he hadn't been so arrogant??

Who knows? Possibly a stretch to say he was referring to his death, which came at the sword of Future Trunks, but he was unquestionably off-guard in that instance.

In any case I agree with apex and I like to have patterns in mah powur levels, so the gap between Golden Freeza and SS Blue Goku is the exact same gap, there would have been between the two back on Namek, if Freeza hadn't sustained so much damage.
Goku could have won the same way he did on RoF of course.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:22 pm

apex_predator wrote:Why so? Where do the 20 million points (power loss) come from?
It comes out of his reserves. And the reason I go with this is because it doesn't make sense for Freeza to be at less than his full power with quotes like this
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.
The author had a reason to ask gohan say freeza is not even close to namek levels when he was fodderized by trunks
Yeah, the point of this
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
is to show that the scarily large Ki looming over them is just the tip of the iceberg and to drive home the utter hopelessness of the situation. Gohan isn't saying "that's weird, he should be a lot stronger than this. I wonder what happened." He's saying "Oh this is nothing. Once the fighting starts, he has a lot more power hidden away, so don't get your hopes up."
As for the Trunks part, the point of Trunks beating Freeza so easily is to hype up the Androids, that this guy, who killed Freeza, Mother F*cking FREEZA, in an instant, is shaking in his boots over this new threat upon the horizon.
Goku has shown again and again that he doesn't need power advantage to truly surpass someone.
Not really. The only times Goku has won a fight with someone without help are during points when he's either equal to them, or has surpassed them. He nearly tied with Jackie Chun, he needed extra training to beat Taopaipai, he tied with Tenshinhan, he needed a magic power boost and training with God to beat Piccolo both times, he needed help with the Saiyans, he needed a prophetic transformation to beat Freeza, and he needed a massively overpowered energy attack with the power of everyone on Earth (and Namek and the Other world) to beat Boo. All of those times he was either on even terms with his opponent, above them, or needed help.
Not sure how base goku << Freeza situation relates here
It relates in that a lot of people doubt the line without looking at it from an out-of-universe prospective. You can look at their injuries all day, but when lines like "100%" and "at his best" get thrown around without a single mention any injuries weighing them down, take it as both Goku and Freeza being at their best during the fight.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:39 pm

I like to see Golden Freeza's power advantage over SSJ Blue Goku the same power advantage Mecha Freeza 100% would have over Namek SSJ Goku.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Khin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:43 pm

apex_pretador wrote:That can refer to the current best / current 100%.
I fail to see how the incredibly huge power loss from genki dama is recovered.
I fail to see how an injured 'Full Power" is his best. Or how Freeza won't have no regrets when he's not really at his best.
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”
Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”
And i said before. Mechanical Freeza could've just simply said the reason why he lost against Goku was because he was injured, but he didn't. In fact, he brought Cold with him and think he will probably win now because he got stronger than before. Not that he will win now because he's stamina/ki is full unlike before.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:40 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
apex_predator wrote:Why so? Where do the 20 million points (power loss) come from?
It comes out of his reserves. And the reason I go with this is because it doesn't make sense for Freeza to be at less than his full power with quotes like this
Power loss is power loss, it can't be filled with reserves.
For example,
Perfect cell (before eating senzu) full power <<< Full power perfect cell, otherwise he wouldn't bother eating the senzu if the power loss in goku battle couldve been recovered by ONLY his reserves.

And the power loss was so severe that gohan doesn't note freeza's power-up before he surpasses his 70%, so 70% freeza (injured) ~ 50% Freeza (healthy).
So, that's nearly 20% power loss.


Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P6.2
Context: Freeza still powering up
Gohan: “To top it off, it looks like Freeza’s ki is getting bigger again…! What’s happening!?”


The damage from genki dama is so severe that freeza notes it:

Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”



Now, some take on other quotes:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”


That means his ki is becoming full in the sense that he is no longer suppressed.
Ki sensing can tell in many cases if the opponent is suppressed or not.

Another quote, which supports my point that freeza and SS Goku were even despite freeza being damaged:

Chapter 326 (DBZ 132), P4.1-5
Context: after Goku dodges his homing blast
Freeza: “An afterimage, huh?...You’re pretty good, aint’cha?...”
Goku: “Like I thought, I don’t have any desire to fight you as you are now…With you pinning your hopes on a worthless technique like that…If you really want to settle the score with me, recover your stamina and polish your skills.”
Freeza: “Yo-you’re calling my technique worthless?...Well then, how about two of them?!”


Goku believes that just by improving the stamina and Skills-techniques, freeza can settle the score with goku, which means goku never had the power advantage to begin with.


now, the most used up quote in this thread:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

See ^^^



Another hint that freeza > Goku:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”


Goku calling freeza still the strongest in universe.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Khin » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:17 am

apex_pretador wrote:Another hint that freeza > Goku:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”


Goku calling freeza still the strongest in universe.
Except Goku said that before Freeza used his 100% Power.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”


^ That line couldn't be any more clearer. The entire point of the fight was to show that Freeza was surpassed by a mere Saiyan, not that Freeza was only surpassed because we was injured or something.

100%-Full Power is 100%. They wouldn't call 100%-Full Power if Freeza was not actually 100%, instead they could just call it as Full Powered Freeza. The term 100%-Full Power was only used on Freeza, which makes me think the author's intent was to show the readers that Freeza is actually in his Full and 100% Power.

Mechanical Freeza could've just simply said the reason why he lost against Goku was because he was injured, but he didn't. In fact, he brought Cold with him and think he will probably win now because he got stronger than before. Not that he will win now because he's stamina/ki is full unlike before. There's also a line from King Cold later on where he said they need to kill the Super Saiyan because they're clan must be the strongest in the universe no matter what. Indicating that SS Goku is stronger than Freeza.

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