MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[Saiga]

And yet we are given an image of Tenshinhan as someone who trains like crazy every day. What would be holding him back to the point he isn't anywhere near Goku or Piccolo's power?

What the hell do you think Piccolo does all day? He probably trains even more since he doesn't have the same bodily needs as Tenshihan does.

And as mentioned, Goku and Piccolo are simply better than him.

I also don't think it's ever really been mentioned that Tenshinhan trains 24/7, just assumed because we don't know crap about him. Only Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo are said to do basically nothing but train.

Hell, he has a farm in Toriyama's character epilogues, so it seems Toriyama views him as a guy who can also have a "normal" lifestyle.

[Kid Buu]

Raditz is listed as having a power level of 1500, Yamcha at 1480.

1. Neither of those canon to the manga.
2. Just as many sources list Raditz as 1200 as list him as 1500.
3. Clearly Raditz is not stronger than post-training Yamcha, given how quickly Yamcha defeated the Saibaman (that was said to be equal to Raditz) he fought in hand to hand. And actual events in the manga trump any numbers given anywhere.

Never seen a source give Raditz at 1200, neither do I remember the Saibaman being said to equal Raditz. Could you direct me to where this is said?

[FoolsGil]

Raditz is listed as having a power level of 1500, Yamcha at 1480.

1. Neither of those canon to the manga.
2. Just as many sources list Raditz as 1200 as list him as 1500.
3. Clearly Raditz is not stronger than post-training Yamcha, given how quickly Yamcha defeated the Saibaman (that was said to be equal to Raditz) he fought in hand to hand. And actual events in the manga trump any numbers given anywhere.

Never seen a source give Raditz at 1200, neither do I remember the Saibaman being said to equal Raditz. Could you direct me to where this is said?

In a series where an opponent can be utterly dominated by someone more powerful with only a 300 pl gap , the words 'equal' mean to me they are both at the same number value. If Raditz is 1500 and Saibaman were at 1200, well they wouldn't be equal.

[coola]

Polish translation was identical to this too. (Minus "over 1200" just "1200")

[Saiga]

In a series where an opponent can be utterly dominated by someone more powerful with only a 300 pl gap , the words 'equal' mean to me they are both at the same number value. If Raditz is 1500 and Saibaman were at 1200, well they wouldn't be equal.

But they WEREN'T said to be equal... only that their power rivaled Raditz. And Toriyama's own memo said their power was inferior to Raditz.

The difference in numbers doesn't matter, it's all proportional. The proportional difference between Raditz and the Saibaimen is absolutely tiny.

[Captain Space]

Um, yeah, the thing right up there (which may be taken down or something soon, so for future reference: Nappa's statement, which Vegeta agrees with, after Tenshinhan kills one). That's the only information the manga gives on them; we're told they're equal to Raditz. No reason to assume anything other than just that.

I see no reason to construe this as "Well they're not ACTUALLY equal to Raditz" just based on some guidebook written by someone completely different, months if not years later.

[MarCas92]

I like how Lance made a point to say that he doesn't care about Battle Powers and the last page has been nothing but debate about them....

It's not important guys. Well at least to me it isn't. Dragon Ball is a franchise FULL of inconsistencies and power scaling is one of them. I don't know why people feel the need to justify everything. I get DB is a franchise revolved around power and strength, but when you start arguing about arbitrary numbers, aren't you sort of missing the point?

[matt0044]

I'm split on the whole time skip with Gohan.

On one hand, the Anime's expansion on his adjustment to his situation was well-done for what it was worth and entertaining even when pretty questionable.

On the other hand, I sometimes like it when we cut from one point in time to in the near future where the hero has gone through a lot that's left to the imagination. Sorta like how Luke Skywalker advances in skill off-screen from The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Though... I suppose the two examples are pretty different cases...

[Saiga]

Um, yeah, the thing right up there (which may be taken down or something soon, so for future reference: Nappa's statement, which Vegeta agrees with, after Tenshinhan kills one). That's the only information the manga gives on them; we're told they're equal to Raditz. No reason to assume anything other than just that.

I see no reason to construe this as "Well they're not ACTUALLY equal to Raditz" just based on some guidebook written by someone completely different, months if not years later.

The issue is that's not what Nappa said. As I said IMMEDIATELY before you, the line never states that they are "equal", but that they rival him:

Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Context: after Tenshinhan beats a Saibaiman
Nappa: “"I'm-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"
Vegeta: “So [Tenshinhan]'s battle power surpasses that. A simple calculation.”

From Herms' strength checker. You really shouldn't go off Viz' translations alone.

Furthermore, it's not some guidebook written months/years later that contradicts this. It's Shonen Jump, where Dragon Ball was seralized - in this spread that was included with chapter #231, where Goku clashes his Kamehameha with Vegeta's Galick Gun. Yes, these were four months apart. But that's an incredibly small timeframe in this franchise.

Furthermore, Herms' has this to say on Nappa's original quote:

Nappa’s line on the Saibaimen’s strength is often translated as saying that they are “equal” to Raditz. While the verb hitteki suru can be translated as “equal”, it doesn’t necessarily mean equal in any sort of mathematical sense, but just that something is roughly on par with something else. In his memo to the anime staff published in the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen’s battle power is inferior to Raditz’s, saying:

Akira Toriyama’s Saibaimen Memo
「しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度。」
“But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz”

Taken from his manga battle power guide. This was released in October 1989, compared to chapter 215's March 1989 release and chapter 231's July 1989 release.

So, in summary:

The manga says they "rival", and Herms clarify this doesn't mean they're exactly equal. Two sources released in the same year state Raditz is superior, including a direct, unambiguous line from Toriyama himself.

I'm not being rude but you really don't know what you're talking about. All you've based this on is a line from Viz's release and ignorance of where these other sources come from.

[Kid Buu]

I like how Lance made a point to say that he doesn't care about Battle Powers and the last page has been nothing but debate about them....

It's not important guys. Well at least to me it isn't. Dragon Ball is a franchise FULL of inconsistencies and power scaling is one of them. I don't know why people feel the need to justify everything. I get DB is a franchise revolved around power and strength, but when you start arguing about arbitrary numbers, aren't you sort of missing the point?

Well, it was in response to this:

Honestly, i think it really is better to not think about power levels at all, for 5 years Z fighters and Piccolo barely got stronger, and in just one year they almost all (Except Yamcha and maybe Chaozu) made Raditz look like trash.

I was just pointing out that while Yamcha and Chaozu are weaker than Raditz, Yamcha is actually stronger than Chaozu. Then the discussion kinda dominoed from there:

[Captain Space]

I like how Lance made a point to say that he doesn't care about Battle Powers and the last page has been nothing but debate about them....

It's not important guys. Well at least to me it isn't. Dragon Ball is a franchise FULL of inconsistencies and power scaling is one of them. I don't know why people feel the need to justify everything. I get DB is a franchise revolved around power and strength, but when you start arguing about arbitrary numbers, aren't you sort of missing the point?

I mean I was kind of trying to argue against worrying too much about numbers...although I got pretty comprehensively shown up just now, ahah...

The issue is that's not what Nappa said. As I said IMMEDIATELY before you, the line never states that they are "equal", but that they rival him:

Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Context: after Tenshinhan beats a Saibaiman
Nappa: “"I'm-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"
Vegeta: “So [Tenshinhan]'s battle power surpasses that. A simple calculation.”

From Herms' strength checker. You really shouldn't go off Viz' translations alone.

Furthermore, it's not some guidebook written months/years later that contradicts this. It's Shonen Jump, where Dragon Ball was seralized - in this spread that was included with chapter #231, where Goku clashes his Kamehameha with Vegeta's Galick Gun. Yes, these were four months apart. But that's an incredibly small timeframe in this franchise.

Furthermore, Herms' has this to say on Nappa's original quote:

Nappa’s line on the Saibaimen’s strength is often translated as saying that they are “equal” to Raditz. While the verb hitteki suru can be translated as “equal”, it doesn’t necessarily mean equal in any sort of mathematical sense, but just that something is roughly on par with something else. In his memo to the anime staff published in the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen’s battle power is inferior to Raditz’s, saying:

Akira Toriyama’s Saibaimen Memo
「しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度。」
“But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz”

Taken from his manga battle power guide. This was released in October 1989, compared to chapter 215's March 1989 release and chapter 231's July 1989 release.

So, in summary:

The manga says they "rival", and Herms clarify this doesn't mean they're exactly equal. Two sources released in the same year state Raditz is superior, including a direct, unambiguous line from Toriyama himself.

I'm not being rude but you really don't know what you're talking about. All you've based this on is a line from Viz's release and ignorance of where these other sources come from.

Fair, but when you posted immediately before me you hadn't presented the evidence you're doing now, and that scan was right there lookin' pretty darn conclusive. Hence my holding to that stance at the time.

Anyway, clearly I stand corrected on several points. No need t'be like that about it, though, I hadn't seen any evidence for what you were saying at the time and every anime/manga version I'd watched/read had translated it as "equal". I mean...I still don't take any of those battle power lists too seriously, they're still no better than educated-fan-guesses. But Toriyama's say-so is pretty conclusive, yeah.

So what we have is that Tenshinhan is said by Vegeta to be more powerful that a being that closely rivals Raditz...what he says still seems to imply Ten's surpassed Raditz. And if that's true of him, shouldn't it be true of Yamcha, who also beat a Saibaman? Not as quickly, but it was still pretty quick. Going by the same logic as Vegeta's statement about Tenshinhan, I still don't see a reason to assume Yamcha would lose to Raditz (especially if you don't think Tenshinhan would). Like, Toriyama said the difference was slight.

[Kid Buu]

I think Yamcha would win since he knows about the tail weakness.

[MarCas92]

Just finished rewatching the entire series. As usual great stuff. As we approach the end I can't help but feel that 5 will go to Saiya-jin 9 To Namek 3 to Android and 1 to Boo.
Android and Boo are still toss up's but the way things are going I think these being 1 and 3 is safe bet.

According to Gaffer Tape: The 2 worst parts in the series are in the Android Arc from Piccolo vs 17 until the beggining of the Cell Game and in the Boo Arc from Super Boo's appearance to the fight at the Kaioshin realm. Those are both HUGE chunks of those stories. Another big clue is that I have never seen any positive post about Vegeta from him after the Namek Arc. Whereas he has praised Vegeta in the Namek arc before and hinted that he enjoyed his character in the Saiyan Arc over later incarnations. All that evidence seems to suggest to me that those 2 arcs will receive the last 2 low scores. He also praises the Namek Arc early on in his Red Ribbon videos when he talks about how the characters are always separated and have to avoid direct conflicts. He also says he enjoys the separate skill sets villains and heroes have during the Saiyan Arc which really comes into play during the Namek Arc. The only 2 negative things that he has hinted at about the Freeza Arc are Goku being removed from the story for training, and Goku showing up and upstaging everyone again. He also stated that the 9 spot will go to the Arc he believes has the best fights. Seeing as how the 2 most boring sections of the story to him are parts that are almost exclusively fighting, I think it's safe to say that those 2 arcs are out. Also, given all the negative criticism that's been given in the Saiyan Arc so far, I think it's safe to say this will end up receiving the 5 spot.

Hopefully I''m wrong and I'll be surprised, but I can't wait to come back in 3 to 4 years and checking this post to see if I was right!

[Saiga]

I think Yamcha would win since he knows about the tail weakness.

Goku mentions that Raditz could have cut off his own tail to escape that, and Raditz was surprised Goku knew about that.

So I think the tail weakness was feigned, Raditz just didn't want to do it if he could avoid it.

[coola]

Sorry for opening that power level pandora's box

[Gaffer Tape]

Sorry for opening that power level pandora's box

It's not bothering me at all. It's just probably something I won't get involved in personally, at least not at the moment.

Just finished rewatching the entire series. As usual great stuff. As we approach the end I can't help but feel that 5. Will go to Saiya-jin 2. To Namek 3 to Android and 1 to Boo.
Android and Cell are toss up's but the way things are going I think these are safe bet.

Interesting analysis. I do try to hide my scores as best I can so they'll be something of a surprise, but I obviously can't just go for years without discussing Dragon Ball on this Dragon Ball forum, so obviously my feelings on certain things are out there. So it's fun to see someone compiling things I've said to make an educated guess. While I'm obviously not going to confirm or deny anything, I will point out that, while you mention what you think the 9 spot won't go to, you never said what you think it will go to. As such, you've created a bit of a pile-up because you awarded 2 to the Freeza arc, but the Piccolo arc already has 2.

[MarCas92]

, I will point out that, while you mention what you think the 9 spot won't go to, you never said what you think it will go to. As such, you've created a bit of a pile-up because you awarded 2 to the Freeza arc, but the Piccolo arc already has 2.

. Whoops! I meant 9 will go to the Freeza Arc. I put 2 since I was probably thinking 2nd place' I was a bit tired when I wrote it so I just went back and edited the post to make it make more sense.

[Gaffer Tape]

DBD: The Saiyan Arc Part 5!

Dragon Ball Dissection December has begun. Hope you like it. This one and Part 6 are already completed, and I'm pretty proud of both of them. But let me know what you think!

[coola]

- Wow, i heard about Gohan 3 years old error, but i had no idea there was Gohan and Kuririn never met error too
- At moments like this, i wish we had anime filler that show remach with Past Saiyans, where earthlings manage to beat them, it would make their cockiness little more understandable.
- I like to think of Saiyans as barbarians in business suits, they are cold blooded killers, who manage to suppress their savage nature, yet when they kill, they clearly enjoy it, licking their lips

Great video as always

[Geekdom101]

DBD: The Saiyan Arc Part 5!

Dragon Ball Dissection December has begun. Hope you like it. This one and Part 6 are already completed, and I'm pretty proud of both of them. But let me know what you think!

Love this man so so so so much