MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/8/20!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/17!)

Post by coola » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:52 am

caejones wrote:Re: Yajirobe. Wasn't he in the previous movie? He didn't really do anything, but he was there when Goku and Kuririn came to after getting Slugslapped out of the plot for a few minutes. I think he gave them senzu or did CPR or something.
Yup, he was

Image
Gave Goku Sensu after he was knocked out by asteroid

Image
At end of movie
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/17!)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Honestly, I've just assumed that it was some girl coming on to him while he freaked out and was unable to stop her, and Bulma happened to see this and overreacted. Ergo "He is a cheater," because he didn't prevent the scene.
Keeps things consistent with both Bulma and Yamcha's personalities, keeps the "cheater" thing intact, and even makes a joke out of it to fit in with Toriyama's delivery of the line.
That actually really works! :thumbup:

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/17!)

Post by Olympian » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:35 am

It`s the only way it works given the lack of consistancy from Toryama`s end.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/17!)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:30 pm

Yamcha mentions having a new girlfriend at the end of the Cell arc. I wonder if it is the same girl?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:53 am

Yamcha's Cheating Heart? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 2!

Dragon Ball Dissection December comes to a close. First, we examine a few Terminator parallels and then get to the nitty-gritty: who are Trunks's parents? And, of course, the age-old debate over whether or not it makes any sense for Yamcha to be rebranded as a cheater! Anyone who's followed me on these forums for any length of time should know my answer. And I feel RandomGuy96 is going to have a field day with this one!

But I finally (and barely) made it through another year of DBD December. Now that I finally have some free time, like I said, I'm going to try to respond to the questions and topics in this thread. Thanks, everybody!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:25 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Yamcha's Cheating Heart? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 2!

Dragon Ball Dissection December comes to a close. First, we examine a few Terminator parallels and then get to the nitty-gritty: who are Trunks's parents? And, of course, the age-old debate over whether or not it makes any sense for Yamcha to be rebranded as a cheater! Anyone who's followed me on these forums for any length of time should know my answer. And I feel RandomGuy96 is going to have a field day with this one!

But I finally (and barely) made it through another year of DBD December. Now that I finally have some free time, like I said, I'm going to try to respond to the questions and topics in this thread. Thanks, everybody!
I see my interpretation made it into the video :P

Good one, by the way. First time I've ever actually watched. Subscribed :)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by coola » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:49 am

Funny, how not even Kanzentai release fixed that glaring #19 and #20 mistake, they fixed 20.000 Vegeta PL stated by Jeice, so why not this? I might be wrong, but i like to think, Terminator later borrowed from Dragon ball Multiverse theory created by time travel in Genisys.

Now that you mention it, it is pretty strange how so many people assumed that Yamucha was a cheater, however, at this point, he was probably already considered sore loser...
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:38 am

Keeping in mind I've hated Vegeta since I was a kid, I wasn't too happy about Bulma and Vegeta hooking up. Even when told Yamcha cheated on Bulma, I would just think about the time Vegeta wiped out a Namekian Village just because he could, or how he would threaten everyone that he'd kill them, or how he indirectly killed Piccolo, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu, and actively tried to kill Gohan, Krillin, Yajirobe and Goku. It's crazy that everyone else just ran with it, and not ostracize Bulma, or try to plan a way to get revenge on Vegeta.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:08 pm

I completely understand your pain with Yamcha's scenario of being branded as a "cheater", Gaffer Tape.

As someone who has recently rewatched the story from beginning up until the Namek (I'm still going by the way), there is no setup, indication or implication of Yamcha being promiscuous. You can buy the idea of Bulma being the "cheater" because there are way more hints of Bulma being more of wanderer when it comes to partners than Yamcha is up until that point in the story. I can understand characters changing, but Yamcha being a cheater is such a jarring and out-of-context change in character that, as you said in your video, it can be really seen as character assassination for the sake of the plot happening and moving forward.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by The gr » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:32 pm

Good video,a great way to end 2017,just a little disappointed that you didn't tackle the scene where everyone did not wanted to kill Gero because they wanted a challenge.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by coola » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:14 pm

The gr wrote:Good video,a great way to end 2017,just a little disappointed that you didn't tackle the scene where everyone did not wanted to kill Gero because they wanted a challenge.
He might tackle it next part, he even said "Cell Arc is no stranger to characters doing really stupid, OOC things, as we'll explore in great detail next time..."
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Ricno924 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:26 pm

I really appreciate you delving into the whole "Yamcha cheated" fiasco, Gaffer Tape. I've always been fond of the character, and the whole situation just never seemed plausible. Your analysis of Yamcha's and Bulma's characters and the related sequence of events over the course of the serieswas refreshing to see. I've seen way too many people laughing it off with, "Of course Yamcha cheated, he's Yamcha," and it never sat well with me. Glad to see I'm not alone with my opinion.

Also, just want to let you know I've really been enjoying your series as a whole. I started watching recently and I can't get enough of it. :)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Gray Riders » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:35 pm

Would it be odd to say this was the single most anticipated video you've done since I discovered your series? The whole thing with Yamcha's "what a tweest" cheating has irritated me ever since I first read the manga from the beginning and realized just how much it required bending and twisting his character.

*
"Trunks did his best to lend Freeza some of his ki so he could survive on his own, but instead it just blew Freeza to smithereens. Who'd have thunk?"
This is a work of true beauty.
*
"I tend to feel sympathetic towards a character when I can so obviously see that character being railroaded by authorial machinations that are just completely unfair."
This is an excellent way of summing up how I feel about a number of characters (not just in Dragon Ball, but in general).
*

I sometimes wonder how people in Japan reacted to the Vegeta/Bulma revelation. If the internet existed back then those would be some discussions very interesting to look at.
Although...I don't know. I've read a few things and sort of got the impression that Yamcha's still a joke in Japan, but a more affectionate one and people like him, while he seems to be hated in the English fanbase. There was that Japanese poll earlier this year where people were asked who they'd put in the tournament if they had a choice and Yamcha won pretty overwhelmingly (23 votes, next closest was 9 for Trunks). That was a very small sample size, though.
*
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I've seen the argument that if Trunks wasn't the son of Bulma there'd be no way to save the future so many times and I can't remotely figure out why.

*
"But the Cell arc is no stranger to characters doing really stupid, out of character things, as we'll explore in great detail next time, in what might be the most controversial episode of Dragon Ball Dissection I've ever done."
Yeah. When I reread the manga last year/this year I thought maybe I'd appreciate it more this time (it's very popular in general) but no, if anything it was worse then I remember.
*
FoolsGil wrote:Keeping in mind I've hated Vegeta since I was a kid,
Are you my spiritual twin?
Even when told Yamcha cheated on Bulma, I would just think about the time Vegeta wiped out a Namekian Village just because he could, or how he would threaten everyone that he'd kill them, or how he indirectly killed Piccolo, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu, and actively tried to kill Gohan, Krillin, Yajirobe and Goku.
Yeah, yeah I'm pretty sure you are my spirituall twin. I've seen how some Bloogeta fans like to portray Yamcha as an abusive monster ,which is pretty ironic when the guy she marries was monstrous on a multi-planetary scale.

Yet if Super has Bulma cheat on Vegeta with Freeza they'd think it was ridiculous and came out of nowhere.


Yamcha got a reallly, really bad deal in the end. "Poor dolt" sums it up about as well as anything ever could.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Totamo » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:56 pm

Here is the thing. I didn't watch z until my early teens i only played the video games, but when I did I knew 3 things from random fandom tibits. The 5 minutes on namek, Goku was awesome and Yamcha is a joke.


So when i did watch them in hindisght, they just made Yamcha look pathetic and not really sympathetic, this scene was the epitome of that. Because look regardless of have happened, Yamcha still loses Bulma to Vegeta, she has a kid with Vegeta, she gets married to Vegta. Yamcha was indirectly killed by Vegeta. This we be like if my girlfriend left me for the guy that beat me up 3 years ago. Sure you call the girl vain and empty, but I'm still the loser who has no girl, has no kid, has lost my pride to the other guy.

It my honest opinion, it feels like Yamcha's treatment would only naturally lead up to this, being humiliated in a way, no one could come back from.
And he never ever does come back from this.,





My question is, is it really character assassination when said character was never really respected by the author in the first place? I mean its not like this was Krillin. I would riot even back then.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:15 pm

Totamo wrote:
My question is, is it really character assassination when said character was never really respected by the author in the first place? I mean its not like this was Krillin. I would riot even back then.
I suggest reading or re-reading the Hunt for The Dragonball Arc and the 21st Budokai Arc. The respect you don't think exists, is found there. And until he died in the Daimao Arc, Krillin was shown in a more comedic, slapstick poor loser light than Yamcha in the manga and anime. Shoot, early DBZ Movies show Krillin like he's a cowardly fool. While Toriyama didn't write those movies, the movie writers considered Krillin as the poor dolt, not Yamcha.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:52 pm

You are a marvel, sir. I don't think anyone ask for five videos and you did it anyway! Get some sleep and finish Batman- at your leisure of course!

I had never thought of Cooler as being in the wrong from the beginning, since he ultimately brought Goku's wrath on himself. But I suppose if you point out the faux pas and don't rectify it on the chance it will prove a point, you are not being any more responsible. Cold never concerned me because of just how mechanical he was; the point was to tell us there was more than one Freeza running around and that the terrifying truth that that rabbit hole only went deeper still. And it definitely works! It instantly makes you appreciate how much work the Namek Expeditionary Committee put in to bring him down.

It is a loss to how decades of hindsight (and closer to the actual event, the series being complete by the time much of the rest of the world received it) numbs us to how utterly mercenary Bulma's situation is. Yamcha's deterioration as a character gave some impetus for a change, but a one-two punch of their finally breaking leading into Bulma bearing still-evil Vegeta's child would jam a story penned by anyone more verbose than Akira Toriyama. Goku's losing his language at the prospect is probably one of the most human responses he ever has to anything :lol: Even watching the Toonami Z dub with no context to Goku's childhood (only know the series began there because Viz was doing their pre-tankobon Dragon Ball releases at the time), I go from "Sure I guess they could split up, Dragon Ball likes to use time jumps to do things off-screen," to "Well. Um, its a thing that happened so it happened, but, how does that follow? This man is not your friend! More Saiyans!"

Nice touch on the existential dread of coming back to life to die again- it is one part of the "I only hear whispers, and that's worse than knowing nothing at all" that the later Z-era (the entire Z era in the TV version!) subjects Goku's extended family to. Another perk of bringing Freeza back even for a moment, to put everyone on the same page of the "new world order". Nice that all of the Earthling fighers get at least one of those, from the "In what other world was I the strongest man on Earth?" to "I can't fight Cell, but I can tell how deep that well goes as well as any of you Saiyans. Pity me."
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Totamo » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:08 pm

FoolsGil wrote:
Totamo wrote:
My question is, is it really character assassination when said character was never really respected by the author in the first place? I mean its not like this was Krillin. I would riot even back then.
I suggest reading or re-reading the Hunt for The Dragonball Arc and the 21st Budokai Arc. The respect you don't think exists, is found there. And until he died in the Daimao Arc, Krillin was shown in a more comedic, slapstick poor loser light than Yamcha in the manga and anime. Shoot, early DBZ Movies show Krillin like he's a cowardly fool. While Toriyama didn't write those movies, the movie writers considered Krillin as the poor dolt, not Yamcha.
You are right. Yamcha was respected for a moment but the years have not been kind to him, so now every blunder feels like aq build up.


Kuririn was also a joke but he was more of the guy who tried even when he was out of his league and his defeats for more respectful.


I'm positive if i was reading the manga at the time this came out and Yamcha was treated this way, I would be upset but I can't just pretend I don't have that here. Kudos to Lance for his ability to.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:19 pm

Totamo wrote:I'm positive if i was reading the manga at the time this came out and Yamcha was treated this way, I would be upset but I can't just pretend I don't have that here. Kudos to Lance for his ability to.
It's all good, No one was asking you to pretend anything. But If I read something that don't sound right I'm going to call it out.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:36 pm

For all the talk I’ve often seen about how Toriyama doesn’t respect Vegeta, it’s pretty apparent that Yamcha is the character Toriyama really doesn’t care for. Even though Yamcha isn’t one of my favorite characters, I can definitely sympathize with the way people who are fans of the character feel about his treatment. Even to this day, he continues to be a punching bag in the series. That’s actually kind of sad when you remember that he’s actually been part of the cast before Kuririn.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/17!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:23 pm

jcogginsa wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:What's the difference? If Toriyama wanted, Sorbe could of been how Freeza came to earth in the Cell arc and it wouldn't of affected anything. Cold provided Cell some more DNA, that's about it.
Because it's hardly last resort option if you don't even wait a year before going back to him
I don't know why it would need to be a last resort option. If Freeza's empire works on fear of Freeza himself, then the organization needs him (especially given that all of his most powerful lieutenants are also dead) to make sure their own livelihoods are secure. Without a Freeza to helm it, everyone who worked for him is now vulnerable. So, yeah, I don't see Cold being a justification for that. I still think it would have worked just as well with a henchman, minus the cute chemistry, obviously.
Noah wrote:So, I've been watching your videos recently (I rarely watch them when released) and I have some questions about your series in general:

- Have you ever thought about subtitles? Your content is great, even though I'm no native english speaker I can understand mostly of it, but some of my friends have to rely on those generated subtitles from YouTube. I think having proper subtitles could help you to reach more audience too.

- Do you have a formed opinion of Akira Toriyama as a writer? Don't know if you have plans to make a final evaluation by the time you end covering the manga, but you think he's great, good or average?

- How about a movie count? Watching your DBD discussing about the movies, makes me wonder which ones you like best and which ones you like less.
Subtitles: As a fan of captions and subtitles even for things I watch in my own language, I'm definitely a fan of this idea. It just feels like it would be a massive undertaking, and I don't know if I have time right now! Hmm. Then again, I have no idea how the YouTube captioning system works.

Toriyama as a writer: Briefly, I think he works best in his element, which is a rather absurdist humor. I think the more complex he tries to craft a story, the more he's going to trip up. I certainly don't think he's a bad writer. I think he's fantastic. He just has specific limitations as to his strengths. And I think that's true for a lot of writers. But if I didn't think he was any good, I wouldn't be here, and I certainly wouldn't have spent six years analyzing the series on YouTube.

Movies: I don't know if I could make a list since several of them are so middling for me. I've made special mentions of movies I like particularly well, which I will continue to do. So far, I think I've made special mention of Princess, Adventure, and the first three Z films as examples of films I'm particularly fond of.
caejones wrote:Re: Yajirobe. Wasn't he in the previous movie? He didn't really do anything, but he was there when Goku and Kuririn came to after getting Slugslapped out of the plot for a few minutes. I think he gave them senzu or did CPR or something.
Yes, he was in movie 4, something I realized very quickly after putting the video out. How I didn't notice that, especially given that I specifically talked about that in my movie 4 episode, is beyond me. But that's the danger of working on 5 videos simultaneously. Now, what I've used in my defense, and I happen to think it's quite clever, is that it's an homage to the fact that Toriyama mistakenly drew two Yajirobes on the spine art for the manga. That means that, canonically, there are two Yajirobes! And movie 4 is an adaptation of one of those Yajirobes, and movie 5 is an adaptation of the other Yajirobe. Therefore, I am still right! QED

I hope that covers everything. I'm glad to see the new video is getting so much debate going on. I was hoping it would! I also wanted to add one other thing because, while it's not the only example, it's one that stood out to me as kind of a defining spark that began Dragon Ball Dissection. As in, when I first got the idea of adding a Dragon Ball review series to my channel and mused about topics to discuss, this was one of the things that I thought would be fun to talk about. Well, anyway, here's the speech I posted on Facebook and Twitter:

"Now this episode is very interesting for me. Around the summer of 2010, when I'd only been working on this channel for about a year, and I had under 100 subscribers, I was living in Nashville, Tennessee. I used to go for late night walks around the Vanderbilt campus neighborhood to clear my head and just think of things.

Around this time, I was working on my Power Rangers/Super Sentai series of videos, so often I'd be putting those scripts together in my head. But the ongoing release of the Dragon Boxes had reignited my interest in Dragon Ball in a big way (and it didn't hurt that my Dragon Box review was, at the time, the biggest video I'd done). Plus, I had just won or was about to win Geekvolution's Who Reviews the Reviewers contest, I was watching Linkara's History of Power Rangers, and through him was going to become a huge fan of SFDebris's Opinionated Star Trek Guide. Not to mention, I had joined the Kanzenshuu forums so was getting used to talking Dragon Ball publicly. So the idea of doing videos more analytically as opposed to comedically was beginning to appeal to me.

So as I would walk the mean streets putting together my Power Rangers scripts, the ideas began to flash in my head of how much fun it would be to do Dragon Ball videos. As a teenager, I always wanted to make a Dragon Ball website, just like Kanzenshuu or DBZ Uncensored or Planet Namek or Ginga GIRI GIRI. I even took a semester of web design in high school, for all the good it did me. But as the idea sparked, I began to think of topics I could talk about. I had tons of them, for sure, many of which I've long since covered. But there were some I've been waiting to get to for years, always reminding me of those late-night walks. And seven and a half years later, here's one I finally get to do! So this episode is pretty special to me."

So, yeah, it's taken me a long, long time to get even this far, and there's a long way to go still. And thanks, everyone, for giving me the encouragement to keep this up for so long!
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