MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/25/20!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:07 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Cell as a whole is a character who was much creepier before he started transforming. By the time he reached his perfect form, he kind of just became a diet Freeza.
I love Cell's first form. I wish he got uglier when he transformed
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Scsigs » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:42 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Cell as a whole is a character who was much creepier before he started transforming. By the time he reached his perfect form, he kind of just became a diet Freeza.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:23 am

I think the Kami merger is one of the better moments of this arc. I like seeing an actual sacrifice of a main character that doesn't get undone. Also like the scenes at Master Roshi's house. Always nice to see the characters in scenes that aren't training/fighting.

How does Cell know Kamehameha, but not regeneration? I don't really understand that.

Also agree that Cell ruins himself with the exposition dump. Becomes unbearable when he transforms.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Doctor. » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:08 am

Toriyama was actually doing a good job of keeping the time travel intact until the point where Cell says he cohld have had Trunks' cells, I believe. I like that he went for the alternate timeline idea, because stories like the Terminator with the more conventional method of time travel always end up a mess in terms of logic. It just seems much more coherent and interesting to go with alternate timelines. Even if he could have had a little bit more care and the end result still ended up a mess, it's far less of a headache compared to other series that use the other method.

Piccolo's plan was always dumb to me. It's another case of character stupidity being passed off as genius, much like his plan against 19 and Gero. Piccolo knows that Cell has knowledge of the Kamehameha and who he is, so why did he bet on Cell not knowing about regen? In fact, why stab yourself in the foot at all? We know Piccolo is stronger than Cell at this point considering he has yet to lose his weights and they're more-or-less even, so why not get the information out of him by force? What's stupid is that it works. Cell, who knows how to use the Kamehameha and Tayoken and presumably every other technique from the people he's composed of, doesn't know he can't regenerate? That was always stupid to me. The scene is just poorly done on every level.

I'm glad you talked about the mystery being solved immediately because I honestly never understood the people who praise the Cell arc for that aspect, when it's done so poorly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:10 am

Kid Buu wrote:I think the Kami merger is one of the better moments of this arc. I like seeing an actual sacrifice of a main character that doesn't get undone. Also like the scenes at Master Roshi's house. Always nice to see the characters in scenes that aren't training/fighting.

Meh. At the end of the day it didn't even matter. Piccolo couldn't beat Cell in Ginger Town, couldn't beat 17 at the Islands, got massacred by Cell at those Islands, and somehow fell far behind all the Saiyans even though they were far weaker before they went into the ROSAT, and were far stronger than him After he went into the ROSAT.

Didn't Toriyama say Piccolo was his favorite character in an interview? If I'm incorrect my bad. If I'm correct, well you wouldn't be able to tell it with the lack of love he gets from his author.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:53 am

Doctor. wrote:I'm glad you talked about the mystery being solved immediately because I honestly never understood the people who praise the Cell arc for that aspect, when it's done so poorly.
More like the lead up to Cell's reveal was pretty damn good for all that it's worth. That's not to say that keeping the mystery going wouldn't have been far better.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:06 pm

Apologies if you mentioned this in the Namek arc videos and I just forgot, but now that Kami's gone, and having recently watched your Minus dissection (specifically, the part where you're talking about how Toriyama potentially ruined what could have been a great theme and bit of dramatic irony), I'm wondering why you didn't also bring up the irony of Piccolo and Goku and their respective trips to Earth. As we learn in the Saiyan arc, both Piccolo and Goku are aliens who have long forgotten their real names. As revealed in Minus, both were sent to Earth to save their lives by a loving parent. Both then thrived on Earth and came to see it as their true home. Piccolo uses his power to terrorize the Earth and lord over the weaker beings, while Goku has no need to be feared and no love of god complexes and fellow people suffering, only desiring to improve himself and protect those he cares about.

The twist comes when we finally meet the rest of their races. Goku came from a race of ruthless, genocidal, planet-conquering warriors. Piccolo, or more correctly the Nameless Namekian, came from a peaceful, benevolent, borderline pacifistic race of farmers, healers, and magicians. Goku was meant to be a soldier, though one of lower stature, while the son of Kataz was meant to be a dragon-clan non-combatant, but had immense power. After being influenced by humanity, Goku became a good person while Piccolo became corrupted. In another world and time, Goku would have been the conqueror and Piccolo would have been the savior. I thought it was a nice bit of pathos.

Minus kind of ruins that too. The irony is even more delicious if Piccolo was sent to Earth for a benevolent reason while Goku was sent to destroy it. Inverting the expectations of both their fathers.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:33 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Apologies if you mentioned this in the Namek arc videos and I just forgot, but now that Kami's gone, and having recently watched your Minus dissection (specifically, the part where you're talking about how Toriyama potentially ruined what could have been a great theme and bit of dramatic irony), I'm wondering why you didn't also bring up the irony of Piccolo and Goku and their respective trips to Earth. As we learn in the Saiyan arc, both Piccolo and Goku are aliens who have long forgotten their real names. As revealed in Minus, both were sent to Earth to save their lives by a loving parent. Both then thrived on Earth and came to see it as their true home. Piccolo uses his power to terrorize the Earth and lord over the weaker beings, while Goku has no need to be feared and no love of god complexes and fellow people suffering, only desiring to improve himself and protect those he cares about.

The twist comes when we finally meet the rest of their races. Goku came from a race of ruthless, genocidal, planet-conquering warriors. Piccolo, or more correctly the Nameless Namekian, came from a peaceful, benevolent, borderline pacifistic race of farmers, healers, and magicians. Goku was meant to be a soldier, though one of lower stature, while the son of Kataz was meant to be a dragon-clan non-combatant, but had immense power. After being influenced by humanity, Goku became a good person while Piccolo became corrupted. In another world and time, Goku would have been the conqueror and Piccolo would have been the savior. I thought it was a nice bit of pathos.

Minus kind of ruins that too. The irony is even more delicious if Piccolo was sent to Earth for a benevolent reason while Goku was sent to destroy it. Inverting the expectations of both their fathers.
Minus really is the gift that keeps on giving.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:24 pm

Wow. This installment has done extraordinarily well, far beyond my expectations. Its views far outstripped the last episode, I got a ton of new subscribers, and (I don't know if this happened at the same time or if I only stumbled across it now) I have my own page on TV Tropes! Maybe that's silly, especially since anyone can edit it, but many years I used to spend a lot of time on that site, so having my own page and reading about my "tropes" is crazy to me.
Scsigs wrote: 1. You say Trunks should've known that the time travel would've worked the way it does from the start. No, that doesn't make sense. Time travel was entirely new to him & future Bulma. He didn't know that the timeline would be split in 2 until it was actually shown to him that that's what would happen.
But I don't say that. Not at all. I say it's weird that Trunks suggests going back and changing things immediately before he launches into an explanation of why that wouldn't work. It's really weird that it's pretty much back to back with Tenshinhan "forgetting" about Piccolo. Again, neither of these is a plot hole, or at the very least certainly not this one. You can rationalize that people can make mistakes. But it is bizarre that Toriyama keeps giving these lines to the one person in a group least reasonable to say whatever it is.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Apologies if you mentioned this in the Namek arc videos and I just forgot, but now that Kami's gone, and having recently watched your Minus dissection (specifically, the part where you're talking about how Toriyama potentially ruined what could have been a great theme and bit of dramatic irony), I'm wondering why you didn't also bring up the irony of Piccolo and Goku and their respective trips to Earth. As we learn in the Saiyan arc, both Piccolo and Goku are aliens who have long forgotten their real names. As revealed in Minus, both were sent to Earth to save their lives by a loving parent. Both then thrived on Earth and came to see it as their true home. Piccolo uses his power to terrorize the Earth and lord over the weaker beings, while Goku has no need to be feared and no love of god complexes and fellow people suffering, only desiring to improve himself and protect those he cares about.

The twist comes when we finally meet the rest of their races. Goku came from a race of ruthless, genocidal, planet-conquering warriors. Piccolo, or more correctly the Nameless Namekian, came from a peaceful, benevolent, borderline pacifistic race of farmers, healers, and magicians. Goku was meant to be a soldier, though one of lower stature, while the son of Kataz was meant to be a dragon-clan non-combatant, but had immense power. After being influenced by humanity, Goku became a good person while Piccolo became corrupted. In another world and time, Goku would have been the conqueror and Piccolo would have been the savior. I thought it was a nice bit of pathos.

Minus kind of ruins that too. The irony is even more delicious if Piccolo was sent to Earth for a benevolent reason while Goku was sent to destroy it. Inverting the expectations of both their fathers.
Wow. That is fantastic. I honestly never thought to compare the two together like that before, but that is a fantastic juxtaposition.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:12 pm

Gaffer, your video inspired me to make a thread

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:05 pm

Yeah, I saw that! I thought that was interesting because I did do a little Dr. Slump research to make sure I had that sentence worded in a way no one could find anything wrong with it. And I happened across the Dr. Slump Wiki, and apparently they've done just that, compared Dr. Slump dates to Dragon Ball dates. Personally, I find it very interesting that the events of Battle of Gods work out to be in 2013, which is the year it came out.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:15 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Yeah, I saw that! I thought that was interesting because I did do a little Dr. Slump research to make sure I had that sentence worded in a way no one could find anything wrong with it. And I happened across the Dr. Slump Wiki, and apparently they've done just that, compared Dr. Slump dates to Dragon Ball dates. Personally, I find it very interesting that the events of Battle of Gods work out to be in 2013, which is the year it came out.
Yeah, that surprised me too. I wonder if any of the other dates line up with their real life counter parts.

(Also apparently Goku turned Super Saiyan on Christmas Eve according to the Wiki. )

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:44 pm

jcogginsa wrote:Yeah, that surprised me too. I wonder if any of the other dates line up with their real life counter parts.

(Also apparently Goku turned Super Saiyan on Christmas Eve according to the Wiki. )
Well, the beginning of Dragon Ball corresponds to 1984, so, yeah!

And, yeah, the entire Freeza fight takes place on December 24th.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:43 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:I think the Kami merger is one of the better moments of this arc. I like seeing an actual sacrifice of a main character that doesn't get undone. Also like the scenes at Master Roshi's house. Always nice to see the characters in scenes that aren't training/fighting.

Meh. At the end of the day it didn't even matter. Piccolo couldn't beat Cell in Ginger Town, couldn't beat 17 at the Islands, got massacred by Cell at those Islands, and somehow fell far behind all the Saiyans even though they were far weaker before they went into the ROSAT, and were far stronger than him After he went into the ROSAT.

Didn't Toriyama say Piccolo was his favorite character in an interview? If I'm incorrect my bad. If I'm correct, well you wouldn't be able to tell it with the lack of love he gets from his author.
I'm not talking about how his strength or W/L streak, but rather the way Toriyama was able to organically phase out a non-antagonist character.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:45 pm

This is past beating a dead horse, but a really easy solution to the whole Gero situation could've just been Gero finding a DB, then sealing it in a place where nobody from the radar to God would find it. The DBs emit a faint electromagnetic pulse which Bulma discovered, it would be easy for Gero to do the same and hunt one or all of them down so they can't get used against him.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:20 pm

Hey Gaffer, remember when you talked about how Roshi made a big deal of the idea that martial arts shouldn't just be for winning battles and that it's a true master's duty to strike down those committing injustice? Specifically about how that contradicts the usual excuse for Goku's behavior being "he's a martial artist, not a superhero"? I think I spotted some more unintentional foreshadowing right after that moment:
Image
:lolno:
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Fizzer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:01 am

ekrolo2 wrote:This is past beating a dead horse, but a really easy solution to the whole Gero situation could've just been Gero finding a DB, then sealing it in a place where nobody from the radar to God would find it. The DBs emit a faint electromagnetic pulse which Bulma discovered, it would be easy for Gero to do the same and hunt one or all of them down so they can't get used against him.
I always thought it would be funny in retrospect, having seen the modern stuff, to have Bulma at some point rethink the Shenron plan by herself and get out the dragon radar only to find someone has already found all seven balls... cutaway to the Pilaf gang accidentally turning themselves into babies. Bulma shrugs it off and hopes Goku knows what he's doing.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Noah » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:33 pm

So, I've been trying to catch up lately, so I watched the whole thing where I left and that part got me curious: not a fan of Yamcha, but I despise the lack of service to his character, especially on Super where everyone got a moment to shine and he not, aside from a lame baseball episode.

But how would you change it? Would you keep him revelant to the plot or just drop him to the sidelines in a more compelling way?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Toriyama's reaction to Furuya asking why Yamcha got screwed over (which was basically "because he sucks lol" ) is one of the many reasons why I can never not like the guy.
You mean you don't like Toriyama? :D

And wow that got me amused, so Yamcha's voice actor: Toru Furuya was so involved with the character to the point of confronting the author, looking for a response? I really would like to read the source on that.
I don't remember where I read that, but Piccolo's strategy wasn't supposed to be a small retcon? I mean Toriyama planned to take him out but then changed his mind?
Hearing your analysis on this arc in general, I was wondering if your opinion deviates a little on the anime as I remember that you liked better the Saiyan arc in the animated adaptation.

A small nitpick, but this track or that one would suit better on the opening than Unmei no Hi IMO
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:53 pm

Noah wrote:A small nitpick, but this track or that one would suit better on the opening than Unmei no Hi IMO
That seems like a battle that was lost ages ago. I can't imagine that Lance ever intended to not use Unmei no Hi for the Cell Arc.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:13 am

This isn't quite Dragon Ball Dissection, but I did realize recently I was going to be coming up on my 20th anniversary as a Dragon Ball fan, so I decided to celebrate by making a video of my favorite edits from the first two seasons. I had a lot of fun making this one. I had a bit less fun trying to force myself to say dub names my mouth hasn't been used to forming in about 18 years. :lol:

20 Years of DBZ on Toonami! 10 Favorite Edits from Seasons 1 and 2
RandomGuy96 wrote:Hey Gaffer, remember when you talked about how Roshi made a big deal of the idea that martial arts shouldn't just be for winning battles and that it's a true master's duty to strike down those committing injustice? Specifically about how that contradicts the usual excuse for Goku's behavior being "he's a martial artist, not a superhero"? I think I spotted some more unintentional foreshadowing right after that moment:
Image
:lolno:
Haha, yeah, I did mention that in that video that maybe there's where the trouble comes from.
DanielSSJ wrote:
Noah wrote:A small nitpick, but this track or that one would suit better on the opening than Unmei no Hi IMO
That seems like a battle that was lost ages ago. I can't imagine that Lance ever intended to not use Unmei no Hi for the Cell Arc.
Yes. I haven't had the music planned in advance for every arc, but this one was always going to be Unmei no Hi.
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