MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/2/19!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Regarder » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:46 am

I'm not really bothered by the "tingly back" thing in theory if we were starting from scratch, because at least it's a technique that somebody could know or not know, and that adds a small dimension of interest to things, but in reality it contradicts everything that came up before. Goku transformed because of righteous anger, and when Gohan was having difficulty he had to have the same impetus in the time chamber to become Super Saiyan, and then later when going beyond Super Saiyan. If "tingly back" wasn't a totally random retcon then Goku would have mentioned it to Gohan back then, and he would have had to spontaneously decide to do that when he was enraged at Krillin's death.

Since Toriyama actually came up with it as Lord Beerus points out, the only conclusion is that "Toriyama forgot" about the previous Super Saiyan dynamics.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:26 pm

That strikes me as a deliberate misreading of the Tingly Back thing. The Tingly Back is about activating the Super Saiyan form. Goku doesn't have an emotional breakdown every time he transforms

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Regarder » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:39 pm

jcogginsa wrote:That strikes me as a deliberate misreading of the Tingly Back thing. The Tingly Back is about activating the Super Saiyan form. Goku doesn't have an emotional breakdown every time he transforms
No, but I figured he summoned the memory and had that feeling in mind.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:35 pm

That assumption isn't really supported by the text though.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:06 am

Vegeta, Team Player - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 12!

Basically, Vegeta has a trolley problem to solve. What's more important? The lives of everyone on the planet or fighting Cell? Do you really need to ask?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:27 am

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone.

Gaffer, thanks for taking time to talk about Vegeta with the critical analysis he deserves. It bothers me how much people like him, in and out of universe. Especially after the Majin Debacle. Fuck that guy.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by coola » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:54 am

5:29 - May i ask where this kindergarden pic is from?

It is kinda like with Tony Montana from Scarface, there are lots of people who like/worship him, even through both original and remake made it perfectly clear that if you try and live like them, you and your friends/family will end up dead.

And i also really liked TFS interpretation of Vegeta living in CC. Yamcha "Guy responsible for murdering most of our friends is taking a shower next door, neat isnt word i would use to describe it" :)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:54 am

I don't think you'll make any enemies here since people eat "critical analysis of Dragon Ball" for breakfast even if some opinions are more unpopular than others.

I think the Anime fixed Vegeta's inclusion in the group where he hops into space with a ship Dr. Brief made in a filler story before returning to Earth just as Freeza and King Cold are on the way to Earth. He's got nowhere else to go except, well, Earth after failing to find Goku. He had been there in waiting for the first set of Dragon Ball wishes from Porunga but didn't stick around upon learning Goku's alive. It's actually a case of Toei getting lucky with plot points they'd set up unknowingly before.

Of course, the Freeza Arc's ending was overall benefited by the slower pace of the Anime compared to the Manga which seemed eager to get it over with. One would think Toriyama would prefer more of a breather after a action-packed storyline. The filler material leading up to the barbecue treats his "inclusion" as tenuous and awkward as you'd expect too as he's just now settling in, him balking at the pink shirt and everybody else just going along with it in a, "I can't believe this is happening," sort of way.

To be fair, Krillin does give Vegeta a good talking to... when he's unconscious and over his shoulder. As it goes, everybody else just hopes that he's smart enough to not make things worse after the ass-kicking Cell served him on a silver platter. It's not like they can say he's out of the group when he's only ever been this Anti-hero who hangs around so that he can one day take on Goku after Earth is safe. Lord knows he can't breath in space like Freeza can so no planet, no oxygen if he can survive the explosion.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:38 pm

This most recent video reminds me of that thread I made about four years ago, where I expressed my unease with how quickly everyone forgave Vegeta after he became a “good guy”. Piccolo’s redemption never bugged me as much because he was never shown actually killing anyone other than Goku, and even in that case, Goku willingly gave up his life. On the other hand, Vegeta was a straight up ruthless space pirate who probably wiped out billions of sentient beings, and who was explicitly shown slaughtering a village of Namekians without the slightest hint of remorse, which is no different from what Freeza and his goons did, yet he’s able to settle down and have a family by the end? Hell, if Nappa’s surprise at Vegeta betraying him was any indication, Vegeta was ruthless even by Saiyan standards.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:44 pm

Cell's ability to regenerate things the Piccolo couldn't seems to come from having Frieza's cells.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:48 pm

"Vegeta is less useful than Chao-zu because Chao-zu is useless but not actively harmful" is something I've thought for years now. I'm glad someone else said it. What a thoughtful Christmas gift! :)

"Vegeta needs to be this badass antihero, so the rest of the cast have to accept him because there's just no other choice."
This is something that annoys me when it happens in a series where the author wants us to take the writing or characters at least semi seriously (off the top of my head I can only really think of one example). When they hang out with the former mass murderer--fully knowing the only reason he isn't mass murdering now is because he doesn't currently feel like it--it reflects on the characters. Especially when he's not even useful to have around because he keeps screwing things up for them.
matt0044 wrote: To be fair, Krillin does give Vegeta a good talking to... when he's unconscious and over his shoulder.
If I were him I wouldn't want to lecture a conscious Vegeta either. The guy's crazy and could kill me with a finger flick.
WittyUsername wrote: Hell, if Nappa’s surprise at Vegeta betraying him was any indication, Vegeta was ruthless even by Saiyan standards.
Yeah, I think there's good evidence Vegeta was meant to be unusually nasty even by Saiyan standards.
jcogginsa wrote:Cell's ability to regenerate things the Piccolo couldn't seems to come from having Frieza's cells.
That's what I think, too. Freeza's cells made him really hard to just kill outright and the Namekian ability to regenerate combined very well with that.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:47 pm

Gray Riders wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:Cell's ability to regenerate things the Piccolo couldn't seems to come from having Frieza's cells.
That's what I think, too. Freeza's cells made him really hard to just kill outright and the Namekian ability to regenerate combined very well with that.
But how exactly Freeza's cells make regeneration not taxing on ki? That's not his trait.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by lancerman » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:57 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Gray Riders wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:Cell's ability to regenerate things the Piccolo couldn't seems to come from having Frieza's cells.
That's what I think, too. Freeza's cells made him really hard to just kill outright and the Namekian ability to regenerate combined very well with that.
But how exactly Freeza's cells make regeneration not taxing on ki? That's not his trait.
Freeza can survive mortal wounds like that. If he had enough energy he could live with half his body ripped apart.

Regeneration = Piccolo
Enduring catastrophic damage = Freeza
Unlimited Ki = Androids

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by lancerman » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:59 pm

Going out on a limb but I'm guessing it's fair to say we will get a part deux to this episode when Majin Vegeta shows up.

Also looking forward to the analysis when Vegeta IS GIVEN HIS LIFE BACK BECAUSE THE DRAGON DEEMS HIM A GOOD GUY

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:13 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Gray Riders wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:Cell's ability to regenerate things the Piccolo couldn't seems to come from having Frieza's cells.
That's what I think, too. Freeza's cells made him really hard to just kill outright and the Namekian ability to regenerate combined very well with that.
But how exactly Freeza's cells make regeneration not taxing on ki? That's not his trait.
Well they don't.

However, if you assume that the ammount of Ki necessary for regeneration is static, then as the character's get stronger, they'd be less taxed

That said, Gaffer's complaint that regeneration is less interesting is still valid

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:38 pm

Agreed with others that Cell's absurd regeneration seems to be a product of Namekian regeneration interacting with Freeza's insane durability, something I find interesting (which gets more interesting later on when we see it interact with the Saiyan's ability to grow stronger after recovering from near death).

As for Vegeta being invited by Bulma to stay with them, you left out the part where he was the one who devised the way to save Krillin. Which plays an important role in transitioning from "heh, yeah I killed that village" to "hey come live with me I guess".

As for them not immediately offing Vegeta: Goku and Vegeta still haven't had their rematch. Said rematch was the only reason Vegeta was spared after their first meeting. I doubt Goku would be fine with them getting rid of the guy, even if any normal person should be.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:33 pm

It's always annoyed the shit out me me how the cast just conveniently forget that Vegeta is despicable piece of shit that shouldn't be trusted and Vegeta just integrates with the cast as if he's become one of them. There's no repercussion for his actions, no fallout for what he's responsible for in an indirect manner, nothing at all. In fact, he gets rewarded. He hooks up with the most resourceful woman the planet, both financially and in terms of training based facilities, and never has to work a single day in his life.

And oh boy... does this shit get even worse in the Majin Boo arc. He murders hundreds upon hundreds of people just because he could, willingly plays the role of being the catalyst to the resurrection of an ancient djinn who would latter go on to kill billions of people and destroy the earth, but because he does one genuinely selfless act he gets the same treatment as Goku, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo and Chiaotzu and gets to keep his body afterlife. Despite the fact that Piccolo, who has God himself inside of him mind you, flat out tells him he's going to Hell.

The worst thing guys like Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo and Chiaotzu was that they beat people up in confrontations, and in Chiaotzu's case, all he ever did as misdemeanor was cheat in combat. They weren't saints, but their redemption at least had some plausibility to it given that unlike Vegeta they weren't shown to be callous, remorseless murderers with total apathy towards the lives around him.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:28 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:It's always annoyed the shit out me me how the cast just conveniently forget that Vegeta is despicable piece of shit that shouldn't be trusted and Vegeta just integrates with the cast as if he's become one of them. There's no repercussion for his actions, no fallout for what he's responsible for in an indirect manner, nothing at all. In fact, he gets rewarded. He hooks up with the most resourceful woman the planet, both financially and in terms of training based facilities, and never has to work a single day in his life.

And oh boy... does this shit get even worse in the Majin Boo arc. He murders hundreds upon hundreds of people just because he could, willingly plays the role of being the catalyst to the resurrection of an ancient djinn who would latter go on to kill billions of people and destroy the earth, but because he does one genuinely selfless act he gets the same treatment as Goku, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo and Chiaotzu and gets to keep his body afterlife. Despite the fact that Piccolo, who has God himself inside of him mind you, flat out tells him he's going to Hell.

The worst thing guys like Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo and Chiaotzu was that they beat people up in confrontations, and in Chiaotzu's case, all he ever did as misdemeanor was cheat in combat. They weren't saints, but their redemption at least had some plausibility to it given that unlike Vegeta they weren't shown to be callous, remorseless murderers with total apathy towards the lives around him.
While I agree with the broad strokes of your post, that Vegeta was allowed to keep his body after death had more to do with pragmatism than any brownie points he might've earned with his sacrifice. Enma thought it prudent to keep him in tact just in case the situation with Majin Boo on Earth went FUBAR... which is exactly what happened.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by coola » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:48 pm

I remember someone made topic, saying that Vegeta was just unlucky, Goku made similar stupid decisions, that back then could also backfire, he let Piccolo and Vegeta go, just so he could have rival to fight, and while Piccolo was reincarnation/son of Piccolo Daimao, he still wanted conquer world and enslave/kill people. If Vegeta let Piccolo go, few months later Earth would be full of demon spawns that each would be as strong as Vegeta.

Then again, it is also part of Dragon Ball charm, having such jerks as defenders :)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by zarmack » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:11 pm

Gray Riders wrote:"Vegeta is less useful than Chao-zu because Chao-zu is useless but not actively harmful" is something I've thought for years now. I'm glad someone else said it. What a thoughtful Christmas gift! :)

"Vegeta needs to be this badass antihero, so the rest of the cast have to accept him because there's just no other choice."
This is something that annoys me when it happens in a series where the author wants us to take the writing or characters at least semi seriously (off the top of my head I can only really think of one example). When they hang out with the former mass murderer--fully knowing the only reason he isn't mass murdering now is because he doesn't currently feel like it--it reflects on the characters. Especially when he's not even useful to have around because he keeps screwing things up for them.
He's the reason Gohan & Krillin survived the Namek arc, the reason Gohan beat Cell and the reason Goku beat Buu (the Spirit Bomb plan was his idea). Then there's the movies were his contributions matter more than everyone else's except Goku (6, 8 and 12). So to claim he isn't useful to the team is objectively false.

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