MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/25/21!)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:47 am

This arc is what brought me back into the series, back when toonami was airing six episodes in a row on Saturdays when the Buu arc was starting up. Had previously gone years without watching after my preteen self got tired of the Garlic Junior stuff.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:42 am

Gotenks, A Failure of Discipline - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 21!

I'm back to the main series, right before DBD December kicks into gear! Gotenks steps up to start us off in the never-ending battle against Majin Boo. He's a big fat failure, but he has a lot of really fun moves. I mean, totally awesome. The best in the series. But what can his failure say about this new generation?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am

Gotenks is truly a love-it-or-hate-it kind of character.

I love how Gotenks deconstructs the old "Chosen One" and "Idiot Hero" tropes with how he was created specifically to defeat Majin Buu, but because Gotenks is an immature, egotistical fool who's far more concerned with showboating and looking cool and is virtually incapable of taking things seriously even when lives are at stake.

Gotenks acts like a child would when he's given a lot of power and a lot of responsibility... he just keeps making the situation worse. And in the end, he fails spectacularly in defeating Majin Boo.

And if there's one thing I'll give Super credit for, is that show does NOT sweep Gotenks shenanigans in the Majin Boo arc under the rug. When it comes to picking fighters to represent Universe 7 in the Tournament Of Power, the rest of the main cast unanimously agree that Gotenks can't be trusted or relied upon for something as high-stakes as the Tournament of Power.

I personally how much of subversion Gotenks is on the usual characters and plot tropes you'd see in Dragon Ball. At the same time, I can see why some fans can't stand Gotenks for how immature and irritating he acts, especially when you consider how well written and mature Gohan was despite being younger than BOTH Goten and Trunks at the time.

Gotenks shows that his particular personality makes him very much not cut out for saving the day and that trying to forcibly create an all-powerful saviour will not always be successful.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:03 am

Frankly, I don't think it's fair to completely write off Goten/Trunks/Gotenks after their first major battle, and that write off in itself fails not only everything that came before but everything that came after.

In Gohan's first battle, his inability to take control of his power led to if nothing else, Piccolo's death. And while Nappa and Vegeta's powers were nowhere as wacky or destructive as Buu's, rest assured they would have wiped out everything just like Buu ended up doing. But right after the saga ended, was Gohan forced into the sidelines? no. And sure you can make the point they literally had no one else to go, but even if Tenshinhan or Yamcha survived, you can pretty much expect Gohan to be on the ship. And he went to Namek, more determined to prove himself and shown he's the child soldier every shonen protag dreams of.

Now look at Goten and Trunks. Grand scheme of things they are just like Gohan, just more showboating and overconfident, compared to the pessimism that Gohan had. But unlike Gohan they weren't ever given a chance to prove themselves again. We never even got a look on the mindset of their failure, for all we know, they could have realized how they failed everyone like Gohan did, and would be more determined to prove themselves like Gohan did. But instead they're completely written off. Let them be kids, and when the shit hits the fan, don't bother because they can't be trusted, because they're kids. Even if by Super's point they should actually be teenagers and could reasonably be trusted to have their shit together, they still aren't given a chance, because of the Buu Saga.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:38 am

FoolsGil wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:03 am Frankly, I don't think it's fair to completely write off Goten/Trunks/Gotenks after their first major battle, and that write off in itself fails not only everything that came before but everything that came after.

In Gohan's first battle, his inability to take control of his power led to if nothing else, Piccolo's death. And while Nappa and Vegeta's powers were nowhere as wacky or destructive as Buu's, rest assured they would have wiped out everything just like Buu ended up doing. But right after the saga ended, was Gohan forced into the sidelines? no. And sure you can make the point they literally had no one else to go, but even if Tenshinhan or Yamcha survived, you can pretty much expect Gohan to be on the ship. And he went to Namek, more determined to prove himself and shown he's the child soldier every shonen protag dreams of.

Now look at Goten and Trunks. Grand scheme of things they are just like Gohan, just more showboating and overconfident, compared to the pessimism that Gohan had. But unlike Gohan they weren't ever given a chance to prove themselves again. We never even got a look on the mindset of their failure, for all we know, they could have realized how they failed everyone like Gohan did, and would be more determined to prove themselves like Gohan did. But instead they're completely written off. Let them be kids, and when the shit hits the fan, don't bother because they can't be trusted, because they're kids. Even if by Super's point they should actually be teenagers and could reasonably be trusted to have their shit together, they still aren't given a chance, because of the Buu Saga.
I agree with what you say, but like the video at the end says, the story is written like it is just because it's fun for the author, there was never a clear cut statement implying they are been punished for being immature and that's why they've been written off, we can make that reading but it's in our heads, because there's no official motive explaining why they've been sidelined.

The truth is they were written off because they are not part of the story they wanted to tell.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am Gotenks is truly a love-it-or-hate-it kind of character.

I love how Gotenks deconstructs the old "Chosen One" and "Idiot Hero" tropes with how he was created specifically to defeat Majin Buu, but because Gotenks is an immature, egotistical fool who's far more concerned with showboating and looking cool and is virtually incapable of taking things seriously even when lives are at stake.

Gotenks acts like a child would when he's given a lot of power and a lot of responsibility... he just keeps making the situation worse. And in the end, he fails spectacularly in defeating Majin Boo.

And if there's one thing I'll give Super credit for, is that show does NOT sweep Gotenks shenanigans in the Majin Boo arc under the rug. When it comes to picking fighters to represent Universe 7 in the Tournament Of Power, the rest of the main cast unanimously agree that Gotenks can't be trusted or relied upon for something as high-stakes as the Tournament of Power.

I personally how much of subversion Gotenks is on the usual characters and plot tropes you'd see in Dragon Ball. At the same time, I can see why some fans can't stand Gotenks for how immature and irritating he acts, especially when you consider how well written and mature Gohan was despite being younger than BOTH Goten and Trunks at the time.

Gotenks shows that his particular personality makes him very much not cut out for saving the day and that trying to forcibly create an all-powerful saviour will not always be successful.
Hang on... Did you get that from TV Tropes by any chance? :wink:

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:05 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:34 pm
Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am Gotenks is truly a love-it-or-hate-it kind of character.

I love how Gotenks deconstructs the old "Chosen One" and "Idiot Hero" tropes with how he was created specifically to defeat Majin Buu, but because Gotenks is an immature, egotistical fool who's far more concerned with showboating and looking cool and is virtually incapable of taking things seriously even when lives are at stake.

Gotenks acts like a child would when he's given a lot of power and a lot of responsibility... he just keeps making the situation worse. And in the end, he fails spectacularly in defeating Majin Boo.

And if there's one thing I'll give Super credit for, is that show does NOT sweep Gotenks shenanigans in the Majin Boo arc under the rug. When it comes to picking fighters to represent Universe 7 in the Tournament Of Power, the rest of the main cast unanimously agree that Gotenks can't be trusted or relied upon for something as high-stakes as the Tournament of Power.

I personally how much of subversion Gotenks is on the usual characters and plot tropes you'd see in Dragon Ball. At the same time, I can see why some fans can't stand Gotenks for how immature and irritating he acts, especially when you consider how well written and mature Gohan was despite being younger than BOTH Goten and Trunks at the time.

Gotenks shows that his particular personality makes him very much not cut out for saving the day and that trying to forcibly create an all-powerful saviour will not always be successful.
Hang on... Did you get that from TV Tropes by any chance? :wink:
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:11 am

The Tonal Dissonance of Gotenks - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 22!

Dragon Ball Dissection December begins! Here we get to something that's always stuck in my craw. Majin Boo kills nearly every major character... and the story barely cares at all. There's more comedy with Gotenks to wring out, and that's just more important than giving a fitting tribute to most of the series' regulars. I would say it's a problem, and that's coming from someone who enjoys Gotenks and the comedy. What do you guys think?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/21!)

Post by coola » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:40 pm

It kinda happened earlier too, Trunks lost his dad, Goten's mom was murdered in front of him, yet they got back to goof around after a week or so in Time Chamber. To quote DBZ Abridged "You act like death doesn't matter anymore!" "It really doesn't! We have few sets of Dragon Balls"
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/21!)

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:20 pm

Outside of that one panel of Gohan when he arrives, Toriyama's art falls ALL the way off the cliff here, goddamn.

Nice that you noticed Toriyama forcing Gohan into the Goku costume - I think that was the point where he realized he was forcing it and gave up on Gohan once and for all. I actually used the square peg/round hole analogy too when describing it on here once :P
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/21!)

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:03 pm

I dislike the shift in art during this arc, the characters don't look like them anymore, maybe the android arc already started with this. That said, I don't have a problem with Gohan's eyes or stare, I actually like it, but I hate how weird it was drawn, how asymmetrical it looks, some panels look like I drew them.

Agreed about how nobody gives a shit about the entire cast dying. And Gotenks copying with it by playing volleyball.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 11/22/21!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:21 pm

Thinking of how much is made of Goten and Trunks being intended to be "normal children" (well, close enough) with Dragon Ball powers, the next generation of super warriors that has the power without the experiences our previous characters have had, that cannot take the life-and-death battle seriously enough, I go back to very beginning and recall that Dragon Ball began with such a boy, with dim-witted Goku raised by a nice old martial artist but who ultimately had little tact or sense of self, and I understand Toriyama's struggle here. With Gotenks he has another chance at that kind of frank and silly child character, only now with a boy who can fly, shoot laser beams, and use his fantasy energy to come up with any silly trick he wants.

But after several comparatively serious story arcs aiming to popular, Dragon Ball stories now aim too big for such a character to "responsibly" appear; as Lance so nicely puts it, Buu can do whatever he wants, it all feeds back into his being the bad guy, but the moment a good guy consciously has some fun in the battle, no sir, no wakku wakku here. You mentioned way back when that the Ginyu Force did not land nearly so well for you because they do what the "serious" characters do, just with deliberate theatrics. I'm reminded of that double-standard here. Dragon Ball's appeal to me is it being a silly comic artist playing pretend at a big fantasy story, trying to advance characters and create drama and scale while at the same time winging most of it flippantly doing what he wants. Now he's caught up in his own trap. I remember reading Michi's "Who wants to be a superhero?" fan comic posted here (and elsewhere I'm sure) and actually hoping Gotenks would show up, and when he finally does as a literal mustache-twirling villain set up to make Saiyaman look good, I was all smiles.
FoolsGil wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:03 am Frankly, I don't think it's fair to completely write off Goten/Trunks/Gotenks after their first major battle, and that write off in itself fails not only everything that came before but everything that came after.
You are quite right, and it is a now forever-unanswered question of where Goten and Trunks might have gone had we gotten another manga story past Buu. I just don't think they were intended for that kind of developmental momentum the way young Goku, Krillin, and Gohan were.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/21!)

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:50 am

You can't compare Gohan to Yamcha. Yamcha just loses, while Gohan loses and makes the villain twice as strong as before. :lol:

I dug the Gohan/Buu fight, at least in the anime. Gohan's punches are just brutal, you can really feel the pain in Buu.

The twist of the absorbtion was pretty good. It undermined the "hero who got stronger beats villain" trope that we saw in the other arcs. Do agree on the whole tennis thing though.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:54 am

Gohan's Ultimate Disappointment - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 23!

Dragon Ball Dissection December continues! Glad to see we're mostly in agreement about Gohan's design here, but now it's time for the fight, his role in this story, and just how quickly said story gives up on him in favor of Goku. Seriously, what do I say in this video? It's literally seven pages of Boo beating him up before the Elder Kaioshin throws in the towel? Oh, well. Gohan's been having to live down this no-good, very bad day for 26 years now. =P
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:57 am

In retrospective, Gohan has pretty much gone down as a one-hit wonder
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 am

There is a reason a lot of fans cling onto SSJ2 Cell Arc Gohan. That was essentially the definitive climax of Gohan's journey. Because nothing happens in the Majin Boo arc to substantially build on his character other than he likes to cosplay.

Gohan's character absolutely stalls in the Majin Boo arc, and it is emphasised when Gohan wants to wear his father's gi. Rather than build his own identity he's just doing what he did in Cell arc and is cribbing an aesthetic from another character. But at least then it made sense for the character given the dynamic Gohan had with Piccolo. In the Majin Boo arc, it really does feel like a Haily Mary attempt from Toriyama to making Gohan interesting.

I really think at this point in the story, Toriyama had just checked out.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by coola » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:58 am

Little late on Ultimate Gohan eyes comment, Toriyama should did what he he has done in Cell Saga with Goku, and only get those eyes when he went full power https://youtu.be/arRMfjIDJH0?t=110
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:13 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 am There is a reason a lot of fans cling onto SSJ2 Cell Arc Gohan. That was essentially the definitive climax of Gohan's journey. Because nothing happens in the Majin Boo arc to substantially build on his character other than he likes to cosplay.

Gohan's character absolutely stalls in the Majin Boo arc, and it is emphasised when Gohan wants to wear his father's gi. Rather than build his own identity he's just doing what he did in Cell arc and is cribbing an aesthetic from another character. But at least then it made sense for the character given the dynamic Gohan had with Piccolo. In the Majin Boo arc, it really does feel like a Haily Mary attempt from Toriyama to making Gohan interesting.

I really think at this point in the story, Toriyama had just checked out.
There's a nice conclusion to his arc in the Boo fight that is very overlooked. Gohan actually tells Boo that he'll kill him and he's not really playing with his food. That's a sign of progression from his reluctance to fight and kill in the Cell arc and his arrogance when acquiring power. One could argue that his personality in the Cell arc was out of character, or that by the end of the Cell fight he had learned how to be responsible, but this is still the first time we see Gohan be so upfront about his willingness to kill someone if need be and follow up on it without losing himself.

The whole "ultimate Gohan is arrogant" thing is pretty much absent from the manga but got played up by the anime, adopted and amplified by the fanbase and finally canonized by the Super anime as the reason for Gohan's undoing. Gohan in this fight was very practical and straight to the point, not really toying with his opponent, and only really failed to seal the deal because Boo outsmarted the kids.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:38 pm

Yeah this whole moment still stings even today. I honestly stand by that you might as well have had Gohan die to Fat Buu and be revived at the end. His entire section was pointless. Gotenks at least had some fun visuals and moments to justify in a fun way what he could add. So he had something to offer as well as at least giving the kids SOMETHING since Goten and Trunks don't really offer much. In Gohan's case it's even worse as honestly you could literally skip his section and have Vegetto and you lose nothing at all. Gotenks defuses, Goku comes in to save the day. Vegeta is brought back and we have Vegetto. Same fight happens as Vegetto stomping Super Boo over Boohan is basically the same thing either way. Then you can have Gotenks brought back when he wants to fight Boo because the kids are cocky and Boo takes advantage and absorbs him (or don't but I'm tying in the inside boo stuff). So Bootenks is back and we get an on the spot dilemma before Vegetto resides to do the same thing he did in the manga and we pretty much accomplish the same thing but without Gohan's section just wasting time.

It's super aggravating whether you're a fan of Gohan or not as it's just really unsatisfying as a story beat. Don't hype up or promise something and then fail to deliver. It's just a waste of reader and viewer time to waste plot points. It's probably why in recent times the Boo arc has dropped to dead last for me after I originally thought it was at least just campy fun. It's direction is too all over the place and I care about story direction a lot more than I used to. I haven't experienced many stories like this arc that have no idea what it wants to do until by the time it finally does, it's too late and the cracks become caverns.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/21!)

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:02 pm

A lot of people seem to think that Toriyama originally intended for Ultimate Gohan to defeat Boo, only to decide against it, for one reason or another. I’m not sure I buy that idea, but this is just another example of this arc building up something, only for it to ultimately amount to nothing, which gets boring after a while, whether it was meant to be a fakeout, or a result of Toriyama writing by the seat of his pants.

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