MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[FoolsGil]

I always hated Vegeta, and I always despised the other characters save Tenshinhan for just accepting him, especially when he fucked up. When I was a young boy, watching him screw things up with Cell on Toonami, I was hoping, begging that Goku would have a "talk" with Vegeta. Talk as in beat him within an inch of his life for letting Perfect Cell to exist. Man I really wanted Goku to punish Vegeta.

I never understood why in and out of universe, people liked Vegeta, to the point of white washing him to be some misunderstood tsundere who needed a good friends (Goku, Krillin, Gohan, Piccolo) and a good fling (Bulma) with benefits (Trunks) to become the man he should have always been. No dude. He's a monster who because of apathy was allowed to thrive, and maybe if Goku put him into his place years before or went SSJ3 the moment Vegeta demanded a fight, the resulting madness in this arc would not have happened.

[Lord Beerus]

YES!

I'm not only who think that Vegeta's Majin phase has more holes in it that Swiss cheese. I hate Majin Vegeta and when I rewatched Dragon Ball Z two years ago I went into great detail about why I didn't like it:

Spoiler:

Coming off the Cell arc, I was hoping that Vegeta would have mellowed out. And it kinda looks like that may have been the case. But when the Budokai Tenkaichi happens, his hard-on for beating Goku, something he’s already done, becomes a literal tumour to the plot. Then the narrative tries to paint the picture that Vegeta has pulled a face/heel turn with him unnervingly killing hundreds of people just goad Goku into fighting him. But here’s the issue… the story has already made it clear that Vegeta is still an inherently evil person. I mean, when sparring with Trunks, with the promise of taking him to the amusement park, he’s still shown to be a callous, pompous and self-righteous asshole. Even just from seeing Goten and Trunks fight each other Vegeta shows he’s still not above being vindictive and spiteful. Hell, Bobbidi even outright states that Vegeta’s heart is dripping with evil.

So Vegeta has made no real significant progress in terms of his character since the Cell arc and it’s clear to see, so what am I supposed to get out Vegeta “aligning” himself with Bobiddi? Am I supposed to feel sad? Am I supposed to feel angry? Because I don’t get anything out of Vegeta committing the evil acts that he does because I just see Vegeta acting like himself. How Vegeta acts up until him allowing Bobiddi take over his soul for the sake of power-up doesn’t give the impression that he’s any better that the snide, bitter, angry, conceited person he was for 99.9% of the time. He may have that ‘M’ on his forehead and have a few veins bulging out of his body, but him murdering hundreds of people for the sake of a fight with Goku is all on him. It has nothing to do with Bobiddi and his magic awakening his evil again. He chose to kill those people in attendance at the Budokai Tenkaichi because he had the power to do so, and probably would have done it Bobiddi didn’t take over his soul and grant him more power. So, if Vegeta appears any more evil that he was before, it just him acting normally.

But what I can’t stand the most is Vegeta’s reasoning reason for letting Bobiddi “control him”. It was literally a case of him not being patient enough. Taking care of Dabra would take no more than 10 minutes and Vegeta throws a bitch fit that his fight with Goku is getting delayed despite the fact they still have a whole day for the fight to happen. Then Vegeta delves deeper into his reason for allowing Bobiddi get a mental hold of him and starts talking about how he hates that Goku saved his life. What is this nonsense? That reasoning completely tramples over the one bit of character development he got at the end of the Cell arc where he apologized to Gohan for breaking his arm in saving to save his life from Cell as a consequence of him acknowledging that he himself had become a liability in battle.

There are some ways you can create a conflict from genuine resentment, anger or hostility that characters have towards one another, and this is not the way to do it. It feels incredibly forced, negates character development and makes Vegeta incredibly unlikable.

[Matches Malone]

A lot of fans say that Vegeta falling under Babidi's control is when he "went back to being evil", but when was he ever good up to that point ? On Namek, he was just as evil as he was on earth, and only tolerated Goku and his friends because he was forced to. He said multiple times that he would kill all of them once Freeza was out of the way. Following that was the Android arc, where he most likely would've been the big threat to the world had Gero not created the androids. Even with them as a threat, he himself was constantly threatening everyone and treating everyone like sh*t. Babidi didn't turn Vegeta back into a villain, he was always a villain up to that point. Vegeta didn't become a good guy until the final fight with Super Buu and Kid Buu, which was later developed further in GT. There's a misconception that Vegeta was a good guy or anti-hero during the Namek and Cell arcs, he wasn't, he was a flat out villain. He didn't even blink when Gero almost killed Trunks and Bulma. That should tell you something.

[Yuji]

I think the comparison to drug addiction is apt, and like a recovering drug addict, it is normal (and quite frankly, expected) for Vegeta to suffer relapse from time to time in his journey from denial to reluctant acceptance. While I understand that the repetitive nature of such an arc may grind some fans' gears, it is worth noting that the series never explicitly justifies or pardons Vegeta's action until the very end of the series when he is revived by Porunga after helping to save the universe from certain doom. Before then, Vegeta was always just kinda there, tolerated (or hated, in Tenshinhan's case), the presentation of the story itself showing that he's still as vicious and malevolent as ever.

It may be frustrating to read Dragon Ball from beginning to end and see Vegeta end up happily ever after without some kind of comeuppance, but that's just the moral framework through which Dragon Ball operates. As long as a character strives for improvement or redemption, or gradually works up to it (and Vegeta has, slowly and sporadically, but he has shown growth in the right direction in every arc following his introduction), and isn't portrayed as an irredeemable bastard (like Freeza), then it is unlikely that they will suffer any repercussion for their actions. Most of the cast is composed of reformed villains, after all, and Goku himself isn't the paragon of virtue and altruism that a man with his power and influence likely should strive to be. Outside of rare exceptions like Gohan and future Trunks (and nowadays Piccolo), most of the main cast isn't preoccupied with moral responsibility. Dragon Ball is simply a story of bad people fucking up because they chase their own selfish desires, and somehow it all works out by the end.

And perhaps that above is exactly the issue to some: that characters don't take responsibility and don't strive to do the most moral and optimal action at all times when they're gifted with literally world-ending power. However, given the lackadaisical and frankly satirical nature of the Boo arc, where Toriyama himself lampoons the idea that the Dragon World is without consequence multiple times (firstly, when Goku says they can sacrifice cities to Boo because they can be wished back; secondly, when Goku's own Kamehameha kills off a "tenth" of the population when Boo deflects it; and thirdly, when Piccolo suggests to Boo he should slaughter the remaining Earthlings), I'm willing to let it slide in comparison to a humorless and self-serious setting like the Cell arc's. The Boo arc is not only self-aware but figuratively slaps you in the face on purpose multiple times if you still want these characters to take their threats seriously. They're martial artists and selfish individuals, not superheroes with a strict moral code or responsible politicians.

Vegeta's arc in the Boo arc strikes me as one of the few times in the series where a character actually looks deep within himself to find out what's troubling him and tries to address it in a characteristic manner; Vegeta pulls off all quintessentially Vegeta moves: the betrayal, the self-important demands, the whiny entitled attitude towards Goku, and finally acceptance and redemption. It has been a long time coming and it is immensely satisfying to hear his proclamation of love for his family and that Kakarotto is "number one." It is because he had kept oscillating between unwilling ally and treacherous antagonist that the conclusion to his arc leaves such a mark and is so poignant and effective; it also, in contrast to the Piccolos and Tenshinhans that came before him, is an example of character growth that takes multiple arcs to reach its organic conclusion. His obsession with Goku may seem repetitive and overbearing by now, but that's exactly the point: his unhealthy obsession had consumed so much of his life (and now it was literally consuming others as well), it had to be addressed so that Vegeta could be free and live a normal life (at least in the vacuum of the original serialization). It was a cry for help in the only way Vegeta knew how, and he nevertheless is sent to hell after killing innocents and is only revived as a "good guy" after saving the universe (once more, if you were looking for a rigorous examination of his moral character, you're looking in the wrong place; in rough terms, saving the universe evens out his bad deeds enough for a revival). A bit messy, but it works.

[WittyUsername]

The Majin Vegeta situation is a major reason why I can never side with the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to be the hero of any given story.

[FoolsGil]

It may be frustrating to read Dragon Ball from beginning to end and see Vegeta end up happily ever after without some kind of comeuppance, but that's just the moral framework through which Dragon Ball operates. As long as a character strives for improvement or redemption, or gradually works up to it (and Vegeta has, slowly and sporadically, but he has shown growth in the right direction in every arc following his introduction), and isn't portrayed as an irredeemable bastard (like Freeza), then it is unlikely that they will suffer any repercussion for their actions. Most of the cast is composed of reformed villains, after all, and Goku himself isn't the paragon of virtue and altruism that a man with his power and influence likely should strive to be. Outside of rare exceptions like Gohan and future Trunks (and nowadays Piccolo), most of the main cast isn't preoccupied with moral responsibility. Dragon Ball is simply a story of bad people fucking up because they chase their own selfish desires, and somehow it all works out by the end.

And perhaps that above is exactly the issue to some: that characters don't take responsibility and don't strive to do the most moral and optimal action at all times when they're gifted with literally world-ending power. However, given the lackadaisical and frankly satirical nature of the Boo arc, where Toriyama himself lampoons the idea that the Dragon World is without consequence multiple times (firstly, when Goku says they can sacrifice cities to Boo because they can be wished back; secondly, when Goku's own Kamehameha kills off a "tenth" of the population when Boo deflects it; and thirdly, when Piccolo suggests to Boo he should slaughter the remaining Earthlings), I'm willing to let it slide in comparison to a humorless and self-serious setting like the Cell arc's. The Boo arc is not only self-aware but figuratively slaps you in the face on purpose multiple times if you still want these characters to take their threats seriously. They're martial artists and selfish individuals, not superheroes with a strict moral code or responsible politicians.

Feel like Toriyama is trying to have his cake and eat it as well. "Oh, no one's a hero, they're all jerks...Except when they get to train with King Kai, and when a wish is made for only good people to be resurrected, they're resurrected too..."

No one expects a Jesus allegory for Goku (well except Toei, in Movie 5) but the general idea is that they are good people, if anything, only because good people will be sanctioned by Kami or Emma to keep their bodies. This whole "everyone's selfish no one's a hero" doesn't even work because Toriyama betrayed this years ago. It's why Toei and dubbers around their world "misinterpreted" what kind of people Goku and his friends are.

[Lord Beerus]

It may be frustrating to read Dragon Ball from beginning to end and see Vegeta end up happily ever after without some kind of comeuppance, but that's just the moral framework through which Dragon Ball operates. As long as a character strives for improvement or redemption, or gradually works up to it (and Vegeta has, slowly and sporadically, but he has shown growth in the right direction in every arc following his introduction), and isn't portrayed as an irredeemable bastard (like Freeza), then it is unlikely that they will suffer any repercussion for their actions. Most of the cast is composed of reformed villains, after all, and Goku himself isn't the paragon of virtue and altruism that a man with his power and influence likely should strive to be. Outside of rare exceptions like Gohan and future Trunks (and nowadays Piccolo), most of the main cast isn't preoccupied with moral responsibility. Dragon Ball is simply a story of bad people fucking up because they chase their own selfish desires, and somehow it all works out by the end.

And perhaps that above is exactly the issue to some: that characters don't take responsibility and don't strive to do the most moral and optimal action at all times when they're gifted with literally world-ending power. However, given the lackadaisical and frankly satirical nature of the Boo arc, where Toriyama himself lampoons the idea that the Dragon World is without consequence multiple times (firstly, when Goku says they can sacrifice cities to Boo because they can be wished back; secondly, when Goku's own Kamehameha kills off a "tenth" of the population when Boo deflects it; and thirdly, when Piccolo suggests to Boo he should slaughter the remaining Earthlings), I'm willing to let it slide in comparison to a humorless and self-serious setting like the Cell arc's. The Boo arc is not only self-aware but figuratively slaps you in the face on purpose multiple times if you still want these characters to take their threats seriously. They're martial artists and selfish individuals, not superheroes with a strict moral code or responsible politicians.

Feel like Toriyama is trying to have his cake and eat it as well. "Oh, no one's a hero, they're all jerks...Except when they get to train with King Kai, and when a wish is made for only good people to be resurrected, they're resurrected too..."

No one expects a Jesus allegory for Goku (well except Toei, in Movie 5) but the general idea is that they are good people, if anything, only because good people will be sanctioned by Kami or Emma to keep their bodies. This whole "everyone's selfish no one's a hero" doesn't even work because Toriyama betrayed this years ago. It's why Toei and dubbers around their world "misinterpreted" what kind of people Goku and his friends are.

That aspect of the story has ALWAYS annoyed me.

There's always been some kind of accountability of your actions in Dragon Ball, but its handled in the sloppiest way imaginable. The people who kick start armageddon ultimately end up getting rewarded for it. And you can't even play it off a some kind of joke rooted in dark comedy because how some members of the cast will be processed in the afterlife is treated with some degree of seriousness in-universe.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve always found this “these characters aren’t heroes” argument to be annoying. More often than not, it seems like it’s just an excuse to justify the characters making careless decisions in order to move the plot along.

[Kid Buu]

Surprised some people don't consider Vegeta a big bad. He was way more entertaining than Freeza and Cell.

[Yuji]

Feel like Toriyama is trying to have his cake and eat it as well. "Oh, no one's a hero, they're all jerks...Except when they get to train with King Kai, and when a wish is made for only good people to be resurrected, they're resurrected too..."

No one expects a Jesus allegory for Goku (well except Toei, in Movie 5) but the general idea is that they are good people, if anything, only because good people will be sanctioned by Kami or Emma to keep their bodies. This whole "everyone's selfish no one's a hero" doesn't even work because Toriyama betrayed this years ago. It's why Toei and dubbers around their world "misinterpreted" what kind of people Goku and his friends are.

They are good people and they're not heroes. The title of a "hero" in our modern sense carries with it notions of personal responsibility for the safety of others at the expense of your own, normally in such a large scale story like Dragon Ball's, it means the safety of everyone at the expense of your own. Outside of characters like future Trunks and Gohan, the exceptions and not the rule, who strive to do good actively and voluntarily, most of the cast is passive and reactive. They are more interested in their own selfish and personal wishes and desires, and happen to defeat bad guys by proxy because they get in the way. Of course, they don't like to see loved ones or innocent people get hurt, but they won't go out of their way to stop it à la Great Saiyaman if they're not directly aware of it. They're aware that there are no consequences as long as the villain is dead, so they're free to mess around. Most of the time any self-sacrificial act is put on display, it was kick-started by a threat to the character's loved ones. Even self-sacrifice is personal in nature, rather than universal. Essentially, they're normal people, like you and me, with their own desires and wishes, only with world-ending power; the difference is that they haven't developed the kind of moral code and personal responsibility that you'd probably expect people with their power and influence to have (but that's also okay because they're reclusive hermits). That would probably be awful in real life and in a more serious setting, but Dragon Ball doesn't take itself seriously enough o the point where their moral character should be rigorously examined. You're just supposed to take the idea that they're fundamentally good-natured people who do selfish things, and sometimes that causes innocent people to get hurt, but it's okay because they also do selfless acts on occasion and everything is reset by the end anyway with no consequences.

Now Vegeta is really the only character who still by this point in the story hasn't been recognized as a "good guy." He's the most reckless, the most morally ambivalent, the most unpredictable, and he never gets the result he wants. He never gets any sort of closure: in the Cell arc, his rival sacrifices himself, crushing his spirit for the following seven years. Even though Vegeta had one of the most important roles in defeating Cell, he basically renounces his entire self because Goku died; that's arguably tragic. In the Boo arc, he goes to Hell and only gets his "happy ending" after saving the entire universe (billions and trillions of lives). Again, it would be antithetical to Dragon Ball, if Vegeta, who single-mindedly (in the Dragon Ball sense, this makes him "pure") strives for self improvement and has made gradual progress in the path to "goodness" as a consequence of his desire to improve physically, were to perish in Hell without redemption.

I don't think it's a case of Toriyama wanting his cake and eating it too, just more-so a case of fans projecting their own moral compass onto a story that has no intention dealing with conventional morality. It's a whimsical, lackadaisical world; if there's any morality to take from Dragon Ball, it's that the series champions individualism above all else.

[FoolsGil]

They are good people and they're not heroes. The title of a "hero" in our modern sense carries with it notions of personal responsibility for the safety of others at the expense of your own, normally in such a large scale story like Dragon Ball's, it means the safety of everyone at the expense of your own. Outside of characters like future Trunks and Gohan, the exceptions and not the rule, who strive to do good actively and voluntarily, most of the cast is passive and reactive. They are more interested in their own selfish and personal wishes and desires, and happen to defeat bad guys by proxy because they get in the way.

I don't think it's a case of Toriyama wanting his cake and eating it too, just more-so a case of fans projecting their own moral compass onto a story that has no intention dealing with conventional morality. It's a whimsical, lackadaisical world; if there's any morality to take from Dragon Ball, it's that the series champions individualism above all else.

You know you're probably right, and I think I realized where the issue is. The interpretation of a hero.

As I see it, Toriyama sees hero, and thinks of superheroes. Superman, or Sentai. And so, the characters of Dragonball aren't heroes, with them being selfish, and doing stupid things to show their selfishness.

But, I think that maybe where things got mixed up, is that when maybe Toei, (except Movie 5 allegory) probably Funi, and probably other dubs all over the world sees hero, they think of the military. My favorite dubism in the world is "Earth's Special Forces." They aren't do-gooders. They aren't going to share their secrets, or change the world to be a better place, or fight for the little guy, but when the Earth is threatened, they are going to handle it. When you look at things like that, what Toriyama made the characters as, and what interpretations saw them as, is not that much different. But then Toriyama overcompensates. He has to make it so clear that Goku and friends not aren't only heroes, but also shouldn't even be depended on, because now Goku isn't handling his business even when under normal circumstances, and in similar situations, he would have. It's why Vegeta was allowed to live on Earth and even start a family. It was why Goku never put Vegeta in his place, even when the first thing he did as Majin was blow up all those people, and all the other stupid stuff that happens in this arc that leads to the villain almost winning because of apathy and stupidity.

[Yuji]

But then Toriyama overcompensates. He has to make it so clear that Goku and friends not aren't only heroes, but also shouldn't even be depended on, because now Goku isn't handling his business even when under normal circumstances, and in similar situations, he would have. It's why Vegeta was allowed to live on Earth and even start a family. It was why Goku never put Vegeta in his place, even when the first thing he did as Majin was blow up all those people, and all the other stupid stuff that happens in this arc that leads to the villain almost winning because of apathy and stupidity.

Fair points, but I'll have to disagree here. If Vegeta wasn't bothering anyone on Earth (and it seems like he wasn't), then it would have been out of character for Goku to act as some sort of moral arbiter deciding if Vegeta deserves to live on Earth and start a family. Not to mention that the second that Goku lands on Earth, he meets Trunks, he knows that Vegeta mellows out eventually or at least he knows that Trunks is a good guy (and unaware of the parallel timeline system), he would be putting his existence into cause. The other characters, outside of Piccolo arguably, didn't have enough power to do anything about Vegeta staying on Earth. As for Vegeta himself, at the start of the Artificial Humans arc, he knows that Goku is astronomically stronger than him, and putting his friends or planet in harm's way would inevitably cause Goku to finish him off for good; Vegeta may be arrogant but he wasn't stupid. Afterwards, he achieves Super Saiyan, but he has to face the artificial humans and Cell, to the point where he mellows out and develops a love for Trunks, and finally he has his spirit shattered once Goku sacrifices himself.

So as you see, there was no really any point or justification in the artificial humans arc for Goku and Vegeta to face off. Goku isn't bothered unless someone bothers him, and Vegeta didn't have enough strength to challenge him, and once he does, he never gets the chance. Vegeta was essentially bidding his time playing nice.

Majin Vegeta is just a decade's worth of concentration and pent-up retaliation released, but he learns that he has to move on from his grudge for the sake of the loved ones that he somehow has acquired, and eventually does.

It's not Goku's place to "put Vegeta in his place." That's just not the kind of character Goku is. He puts villains in their place because they show no signs of change, but Vegeta does. And by that point in the series, he likely considered Vegeta an awkward friend as well. Not to mention, as a prideful martial artist, Goku knew that breaking Vegeta's spirit again by showing him how thoroughly outclassed he was even after selling his soul to the devil would likely do more harm than good. But fundamentally, Goku's just not the kind of person who tries to dish out moral judgement. That's just now how he operates.

[Gaffer Tape]

The Pointless Saiyan Rematch - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 13!

Merry Christmas! Hope you enjoy this video! Yeah, there's a fight here between Goku and Vegeta. It kinda sucks. But it's okay because we get a new villain, and he's pretty cool!

[PurestEvil]

Yeeaaah, I can see people liking this fight, but I have seen a few who prefer it to the FIRST Goku vs Vegeta fight. Like, I can't seem to understand why people think so, even as someone who actually does like Vegeta's character in this arc.
For the anime, I think felt that the Majin Vegeta fight was a bit...lackluster. It was not at the same level as the first one in terms of dynamics and choreography IMO.

[FoolsGil]

Goku's worst moment. He's never disrespected anyone on the side of good like the Supreme Kai before that moment, or since. And as Super has shown us, is the start of Goku getting away with things with no repercussions. imho, he should have damned his soul and lost his body for that.

[Matches Malone]

I have seen a few who prefer it to the FIRST Goku vs Vegeta fight. Like, I can't seem to understand why people think so, even as someone who actually does like Vegeta's character in this arc.

The final fight in the Saiyan arc is undoubtedly better, the problem is that it's not really a Goku vs Vegeta fight, but rather Goku and his friends vs Vegeta. The actual fight between them was very short, after that it was a one sided beat down by ape Vegeta, followed by Gohan and the others taking him on. Here, especially the anime, it's a one on one fight from start to finish, animated greatly on top of it.

[Yuji]

Goku's worst moment. He's never disrespected anyone on the side of good like the Supreme Kai before that moment, or since. And as Super has shown us, is the start of Goku getting away with things with no repercussions. imho, he should have damned his soul and lost his body for that.

Goku attacked God on sight and effectively killed Kaio. This is one of Goku's more interesting character moments in the series, in my opinion. It's a fascinating character turn that isn't all together unrealistic.

[FoolsGil]

Goku's worst moment. He's never disrespected anyone on the side of good like the Supreme Kai before that moment, or since. And as Super has shown us, is the start of Goku getting away with things with no repercussions. imho, he should have damned his soul and lost his body for that.

Goku attacked God on sight and effectively killed Kaio. This is one of Goku's more interesting character moments in the series, in my opinion. It's a fascinating character turn that isn't all together unrealistic.

Goku just finished fighting King Piccolo in the former, and the latter was a quick decision with no ill intent to King Kai. Though thinking of it that should have docked points off of him as well.

[PurestEvil]

Goku's worst moment. He's never disrespected anyone on the side of good like the Supreme Kai before that moment, or since. And as Super has shown us, is the start of Goku getting away with things with no repercussions. imho, he should have damned his soul and lost his body for that.

The Supreme Kai is a bitch.

[FoolsGil]

Goku's worst moment. He's never disrespected anyone on the side of good like the Supreme Kai before that moment, or since. And as Super has shown us, is the start of Goku getting away with things with no repercussions. imho, he should have damned his soul and lost his body for that.

The Supreme Kai is a bitch.

*snrk*

Well, that may have been the case, but Goku shouldn't have been the one to emphasize it. Feel like Toriyama's need to make it clear to everyone Goku isn't a superhero led that to happen. But you know who probably should have did it? Vegeta. He may have refused to kill Supreme Kai because Babidi ordered it, but now he's getting in the way of fighting Goku. He should have been the one to threaten Supreme Kai and force him to stand down.