MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:47 pm

FoolsGil wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:31 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:17 pm
FoolsGil wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:50 pm Goku's worst moment. He's never disrespected anyone on the side of good like the Supreme Kai before that moment, or since. And as Super has shown us, is the start of Goku getting away with things with no repercussions. imho, he should have damned his soul and lost his body for that.
The Supreme Kai is a bitch.
*snrk*

Well, that may have been the case, but Goku shouldn't have been the one to emphasize it. Feel like Toriyama's need to make it clear to everyone Goku isn't a superhero led that to happen. But you know who probably should have did it? Vegeta. He may have refused to kill Supreme Kai because Babidi ordered it, but now he's getting in the way of fighting Goku. He should have been the one to threaten Supreme Kai and force him to stand down.
Absofuckinglutely. It makes sense, considering Majin Vegeta's attitude.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:26 pm

I personally think it's a wonderful dramatic moment that appears at first to be Goku putting honor (the honor of those slain) before reason. That Vegeta's actions are so beyond the pale that giving him his comeuppance for what he's done is as important as anything else. Surely it's debatable as to whether that is true, but I appreciate the sentiment. Of course, then when they actually start fighting, and Goku's shown to just be having a great time it rather loses its punch. And of course, when Super Saiyan 3 is introduced, it more or less loses all of its punch.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:19 pm

Merry Christmas, Gaffer Tape!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by Cipher » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:41 am

I'm a little late in commenting on this, but I was better able to find what exactly struck me as being a bit odd about the Majin Vegeta episode the other week. After listening to Lance talk about Vegeta's motivations, and nodding along, because they all make sense and come across well enough, suddenly there's a pivot into "And Vegeta's having a temper tantrum/being a pathetic baby, and that's why this moment doesn't work for me."

A-are we not supposed to think he's being a pathetic baby? Goku sees through his act and expresses his disappointment nearly immediately (despite also finding enjoyment in the fight once it gets going, because Goku). The fact that the story largely follows Gohan and the Kaioshin from there, rather than Goku and Vegeta, further speaks to me that we're meant take it primarily for the drama and tension it provides to the Boo-resurrection plot, rather than as serious focal drama itself--certainly not in any way that would ask us to seriously wrestle sympathetically with the gravitas of Vegeta's conflict. Vegeta does get serious, sympathetic moments just a bit further down the line, but, I don't know. The Majin Vegeta turn always seemed like it was meant to be a transparently pathetic and low moment for him? I feel like it does what it's meant to do?

It was a rare moment in DBD where I felt like commentary stopped being a reaction to the comic, and started being a reaction ... to the fandom, I guess. Maybe it's been too long since I've gone through DB comments not written by total weirdos with encyclopedic knowledge of the series and reading extra, serious pathos and gravitas into Vegeta's turn is still common somewhere, but the idea that we're meant to grasp onto anything but the in-character tension he provides at that point in the story never even crossed my mind, or seemed like something the series itself promises. The issue of Vegeta having spent too little time not double-crossing the heroes in previous arcs dampening it as a twist is certainly a critique I'm sympathetic too if repeated plot beats are prone to bothering someone though. Admittedly, maybe if I approached the series more consciously trying to shut out my knowledge of future developments--which I know is the lens the series tries to take; how would the series have read and worked in serialization?--the repetition of twists and plot beats would bother me more too.

At any rate, no compunctions with the latest episode, and I never mind disagreeing with the series! That one just got me because I didn't feel like what it was disagreeing with was the series itself. I wasn't quite sure how to express that when the episode came out. Or maybe I'm wrong, and the series really does seem to want to push Vegeta's turn as serious, non-pathetic-baby drama! I don't know. Maybe I'd feel differently if I didn't always blitz through that section on rereads, since the two-pronged plot of Gohan and the Kaioshin going after Boo and Vegeta and Goku rapidly fueling him creates such a frantic pacing.

Looking forward to the Movie 10 commentary! I suspect it'll be one much like the Boo arc as a whole where we part ways, but who knows!

EDIT -- On the subject of the actual latest episode, I was surprised by how much I liked what (appropriately) little we get of Goku vs. Vegeta on my latest reread (which ended about a month ago). There's a nice sense of speed, weight and scale to the few pages we get, though it has the decency to not give us more than that, since it isn't the main event. (Another reason I kind of have a hard time getting on board with the idea that the Majin turn is supposed to be a moment of weighty moral complexity for Vegeta. One would except Toriyama to try to wring as much drama out of the match as the anime does ... to the anime's detriment, I think, because this section is a lot more tense and exciting with the balance of focus the manga has. The anime belaboring Goku and Vegeta's fight and inserting more speeches for Vegeta into is also probably part of the fan response I felt a bit like last episode was responding to.)

Goku sure is about to get a revolving door of explanations as to his motivations for actions in the first half of the arc though.

EDIT EDIT -- This all said, you should definitely not listen to me and just continue to make videos expressing your own thoughts on the series! I just can't help but give my reaction to things they prompt me to think about sometimes too.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:15 pm

Kid Buu wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:19 pm Merry Christmas, Gaffer Tape!
And a Merry Christmas to you as well!
Cipher wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:41 am Wonderful essay
By all means I will listen to you because I find your opinions interesting and your challenges to them keep me on my toes.

First off, as much of a cop out as it sounds, I always do find myself in a bit of a quandary due to the realization that I can only go so far in a strict logical rationalization when it comes to story analysis. At the end of the day, I feel a certain way about something, and my critiques can be said to exist as a means of digging out why I feel the way I do. But at a certain point, I have to shrug and say, "Well, I just don't like it," just as those who feel the opposite often say to me, "Well, I can't disagree with all your reasons, but I still really like it." I'm not quite at that point yet, but I sometimes do feel it's worth saying, at least in regards to the possibility (or lack thereof) of reaching common ground.

There are occasions where I feel I've said all there is to say only to find much more ammunition in the comments of the video, a perspective I've either failed to look at, or a point backing up my own view that causes me to go, "Ooh! I wish I'd thought to add that too!" And I think as that has occurred in the past 24 hours, it applies to this discussion as well. I certainly do agree with you that Vegeta is meant to be pathetic to a certain degree. But likewise, a defense I received for my critique of the fight resulting from it, well, is also along the lines of your edit to this post: the fight succeeds because it's supposed to be underwhelming. And my response to that is, basically, an actor who "plays" bored comes across as boring. A comedian who does too good a job of being obnoxious ends up being grating to the audience. I think there's a fine line when it comes to "succeeding" at a eliciting a negative response, where it backfires in the worst way.

It's not as if we've never seen Vegeta be pathetic or throw a temper tantrum before. Goku bloodies his face, and his response is to attempt to blow up the planet. He realizes he's been fooled by Gohan and came within inches of having the last Dragon Ball, and his response is to rage scream across the countryside and blow up their cave. This is not exactly novel Vegeta behavior. But I do find there's a distinct charm to it in those that this moment completely lacks. And I do think perhaps it has to do with just how disproportionate the reaction is. He murders a bunch of unrelated people and completely derails any attempt to stop the end of the world in order to get a minor reward he would probably get anyway if he just sat still for another half hour. Even his Cell Arc betrayal was rooted in some form of misguided ego. He genuinely thought he could handle the challenge. He wasn't purposely letting Cell win because Trunks didn't get him a Father's Day card. It's just the most overblown response to the pettiest of worries. And I think that's as far as I can go because I think we're in agreement there, and it only comes down to our reaction to it. I suppose people who like it are amazed that Vegeta would go just that far. But for me it goes so far it completely backfires, and it's the equivalent of a little kid blowing a noisemaker in my ear repeatedly. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing, but I hate it. It's not emotionally engaging me (at least not in the way it thinks it's trying to). It's just annoying.

By the same token, I find it hard to praise the resulting fight for succeeding at being crap, if we are to believe that's what's it intended to be. There's once again an incongruity here. Vegeta very literally stops the show with his actions. He's an interruption, a focus-puller. And if nothing else, he does a great job of that. While Boo is still nominally what matters, as far as the audience is concerned, he's been completely upstaged by what Vegeta has just done. Even an uncharitable curmudgeon like myself would be inclined to go, "Well, okay. You have my attention. Now do something with it." But instead Toriyama splits the story, and the sum of its parts is far, far less than the whole. There's no tension to wring out that Goku and Vegeta might resurrect Boo because Gohan and Kaioshin barely start their story before it actually happens. The Goku and Vegeta fight is a distracting cutaway to what should matter. And like I intimated in the video, it doesn't even do a good enough job of standing on its own. I don't even tend to get into this all that much, but even when Toriyama draws action that fails to emotionally engage, it's at the very least easy to follow and fun to look at. This even fails on that level, which I don't think Toriyama has ever done before. The few panels devoted to this fight are messy, filled with too many SSJ2 lightning bolts, dust, and debris. It's cluttered in a way most Toriyama fights aren't. And there is absolutely nothing memorable or fanciful about the action in and of itself. It is what detractors of Dragon Ball think the whole series is. It's Toriyama's equivalent of those animated fight loops that pervade the television version so frequently. But I digress.

I have nothing against the idea of the fight being unsatisfying... for Vegeta. But if making it unsatisfying for the audience was the goal, I think that's a huge mistake. Obviously flashy fighting is not my thing, and I've already made it clear that the anime making it bigger and flashier is not the way to fix it. But it does need to matter on some level rather than feeling like an excuse to move the plot along. I personally feel it simply doesn't fit to build it up to the degree that the story does only to let it play it out in the background. You could argue there's a subversive element to it, such as the idea that the thud punchline of Great Saiyaman being revealed is the joke. But I don't think it works even as a thud, even discounting how such moments play better for comedy than the overblown melodrama of this particular passage.

Ultimately, I feel that this entire sequence fails because it simply has no idea what it wants to be, so what it is tends to drift all over the place. There's no consistent throughline with any of these actions. And I really think Toriyama shoots the whole thing in the foot by having Vegeta admits he chose this, that he is in control of all of his actions, and by having the resulting fight end up being so casual. Goku opens this by being so incredibly angry that he threatens to incinerate a god who stands in his way of punishing Vegeta. That's great! It's a bad thing to do, but it's a wonderfully human conflict... with gods. Flip ahead a few pages, and this has basically become the gentle sparring match at the end of Rocky III. In particular are the two panels where Goku and Vegeta are just smiling at each other like Rocky and Apollo. And when it ends, I get absolutely no sense that Vegeta has come to his senses or that he has found this whole thing unsatisfying, as has been claimed. It just kinda stops. That's why, if any one of those above elements had been tweaked, this might work on some level. If there was any indication that Bobbidi was enhancing Vegeta's worst impulses or lowering his inhibitions, this would work. But for me that flies out the window when paired with Vegeta's complete control and his ability to simply stop his fight with Goku with absolutely no struggle. The idea of the fight is propped up as this big thing that has the power to stop everything else in its tracks, but then shifts on a dime to being this completely casual bit of fluff. "Well, we're here. Guess we might as well do this." And because of that, it just feels like a completely random mess, not one that's meant to subvert my expectations or has a twinkle in its eye over how crazy it's being, but just one that's gotten lost in its own storytelling.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:38 am

Gaffer Tape wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:26 pm I personally think it's a wonderful dramatic moment that appears at first to be Goku putting honor (the honor of those slain) before reason. That Vegeta's actions are so beyond the pale that giving him his comeuppance for what he's done is as important as anything else. Surely it's debatable as to whether that is true, but I appreciate the sentiment. Of course, then when they actually start fighting, and Goku's shown to just be having a great time it rather loses its punch. And of course, when Super Saiyan 3 is introduced, it more or less loses all of its punch.
I dunno, I don't see much problem with Goku both fighting Vegeta to stop any more mindless bloodshed, and enjoying himself as both a martial artist and a Saiyan. I guess considering all of the things Goku has let happen, it's at least a big step in the right direction to me.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by Cipher » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:38 am

Gaffer Tape wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:15 pm Ultimately, I feel that this entire sequence fails because it simply has no idea what it wants to be, so what it is tends to drift all over the place. There's no consistent throughline with any of these actions. And I really think Toriyama shoots the whole thing in the foot by having Vegeta admits he chose this, that he is in control of all of his actions, and by having the resulting fight end up being so casual. Goku opens this by being so incredibly angry that he threatens to incinerate a god who stands in his way of punishing Vegeta. That's great! It's a bad thing to do, but it's a wonderfully human conflict... with gods. Flip ahead a few pages, and this has basically become the gentle sparring match at the end of Rocky III. In particular are the two panels where Goku and Vegeta are just smiling at each other like Rocky and Apollo. And when it ends, I get absolutely no sense that Vegeta has come to his senses or that he has found this whole thing unsatisfying, as has been claimed. It just kinda stops. That's why, if any one of those above elements had been tweaked, this might work on some level. If there was any indication that Bobbidi was enhancing Vegeta's worst impulses or lowering his inhibitions, this would work. But for me that flies out the window when paired with Vegeta's complete control and his ability to simply stop his fight with Goku with absolutely no struggle. The idea of the fight is propped up as this big thing that has the power to stop everything else in its tracks, but then shifts on a dime to being this completely casual bit of fluff. "Well, we're here. Guess we might as well do this." And because of that, it just feels like a completely random mess, not one that's meant to subvert my expectations or has a twinkle in its eye over how crazy it's being, but just one that's gotten lost in its own storytelling.
Sorry I'm a little late in responding! That's thoughtfully justified. The argument that it lets down its own dramatic potential (an element you get at in the video via discussing the repetition of Vegeta's betrayals, but far more detailed here) speaks to me a bit more than what I thought the final video focused on, though that kind of response probably also has its place.

As is typical of arcs where we part ways, there are sentences in there I could highlight as being specific reasons I like the dynamic of this development, but I wouldn't expect them to play as favorably to all readers. And if you're working backward from a visceral feeling of not being excited by or on board with events, it's critique worth presenting.

Looking forward to the next update!

Also, you totally didn't owe me that long a response, but I'm happy to have gotten it!

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/20!)

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:24 pm

Hmm... Great video as always, but I'll be frank, I haven't disagreed with a Gaffer-Take more than the whole "Goku and pals refuse to take proactive measures against the Android threat" debacle. :lol: I think Goku and Vegeta's conflict is pretty fantastic even if it isn't focused on too long in the manga. While distinguishing this particular pathetic-Vegeta-baby-tantrum from the litany of past pathetic-Vegeta-baby-tantrums might be splitting hairs, consider the time skip. Although, again, it's not focused on too much, Vegeta has visibly begun to acclimatise to Earth life at this point. He's still an asshole, but he's been softened, infected by human comforts. For the entire build-up surrounding the tournament, he's in all fairness shown a spectacular amount of restraint compared to what we usually see from him in similar scenarios. The idea of him participating in a stupid martial arts tournament with rules and junk would've been incomprehensible only a single arc ago, but now he's putting up with it with only an occasional grumble, all because there's a glimmer of hope that he can finally get what he (thinks he) wants. Goku and the other characters sate and coddle him with false promises about the rematch he wants so badly, meanwhile you have the massive amount of boiling tension from across the entire series, a Saiyan-sized mid-life crisis... Everything just reaches critical mass at the worst time.

Sure, Vegeta was hanging out having barbecues with the main cast shortly after Namek but at that point, it was all treated as a gag of him being such a fish-out-of-water. The Saiyan Prince squeezed into a ridiculous button-up shirt and slacks. Nobody has the motivation to put Vegeta in his place because Vegeta himself doesn't have any motivation so long as Goku isn't around. Krillin even acknowledges that the Android threat would give Vegeta a common goal to work towards, thereby preventing him from going apeshit on Piccolo or Tenshinhan over some petty remark, which is sound logic if you ask me. But at this point in the Buu arc, his clothes and lifestyle are no longer depicted as comical, it's just his genuine day-to-day grind as a fitness freak trophy husband.

A point you raised about the match feeling incongruous with the rest of the plot is exactly a reason I believe it works so well. Vegeta forces this conflict to happen because he bloody well said so, he doesn't give a solitary shit about Kaioshin or Majin Buu. Unlike Gohan and Kaioshin always kowtowing to the whims of The PlotTM, Goku and Vegeta mould the story around their own desires and independent motivation, while also happening to influence the main plot in a major, interesting way. And by forcing it to happen too early at such an inopportune moment, yeah, it's treated as a bit of a mediocre premature ejaculation that ultimately has broader reaching consequences beyond the fight itself.

While many see the reveal of Super Saiyan 3 as a huge dampener on this fight, I've never struggled to justify it in my head. For one, Goku wants to make a good fight of it, naturally. It's Goku. For as much as he's all "ZETTAI NI YURUSENAI", "I'll end this quick and easy" at the start of most climactic showdowns with vile villains, he can't help but relish himself when the fisticuffs start being thrown. It's all in the bloodthirsty smiles he and Vegeta share. Two, Dragon Ball is all about honour and dishonour in combat. In the absent minds of our protagonists, to go Super Saiyan 3 against a Super Saiyan 2 is plain unsporting, in the same way that Goku can go from demanding he and Vegeta fuse against fused Evil Buu to crushing the Potara in his fists because fusing or tag-teaming a single opponent like Pure Buu just ain't fair. In a similar vain, Goku in all his alpha-male chadhood may have wanted Vegeta to suffer with the knowledge that he didn't even have to go all out against him after the crimes he committed.

Finally, we get to another core of the matter. Goku, through no action of his own, always makes things worse just by being there, a theme raised in the Android arc. Everything utterly goes to shit within one day of his temporary resurrection.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:30 am

Unfrozen Caveman Broli - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Dangerous Duo! Super Warriors Can't Rest

You know what? I really like this movie. If that is even more insulting after the thrashings I gave to Vegeta, then so be it. But Videl really should be on the poster. Happy New Year!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:16 am

I will say I like Videl's outfit. That's an alt costume I wish would show up in fighting games.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:39 pm

The two Broly sequels are interesting in terms of how they give the limelight to lesser characters, namely Goten and Kid Trunks, but that also seems to be a key reason why they’re so disliked. People don’t want to see them, they want to see Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. I guess that’s why between Movie 10 and Movie 11, the latter is the more hated, because the former at least includes Gohan and Goku in prominent roles, even if Goten and Trunks get more focus.

I don’t care for either of these movies, but I don’t really despise them. Still, between the two of them, I honestly prefer Movie 11. Despite its reputation as the worst movie in the franchise (not counting the live action stuff), I kind of like how they seemed to just throw their hands in the air and made a B-movie with Dragon Ball characters.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:50 pm

I like all the Broli films tbh. Also I think Kid Gohan was pretty realisitc.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:28 am

I would've liked this film more if the fights were less one-sided. Bio-Broly was better about this, with Goten and Trunks scoring some genuinely damaging hits on the big lug.
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He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:01 am

agree, well i do like broli 2 (me and my bf watched it together and i really grew to appreciate since then), i honestly think bio broli does everything better besides animation and directing. better comedy, a more creative end fight, much better plot, and i like the character interaction more. plus as much as i love them, not having goku or gohan in it improves it, given how much that role was outplayed and how little they added to the movies besides the final fight. their both still better then broli 1, and both are waaay overhated, but i think broli 3 is kinda easily the best of the bunch.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by zDBZ » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:20 pm

IMO, the first half of Broly: Second Coming is everything the early Buu saga should have been once the Saiyaman material wrapped up. The more time passes, the more disappointed I am that the whole "next generation" angle of that period never got a chance to shine. Videl (almost) fully integrated into the main cast, Goten and Trunks being kids, hunting dragon balls as a way to reintroduce the wider dragon world after the seven-year gap, bringing back dinosaurs and random, colorful locales; if Gohan had been incorporated into that part of the movie, it would've been everything I wanted.

But I would say, having not seen it for a while, that I remember the second half of this film being much weaker. Goten and Trunks being funny during the fight doesn't really make up for the fact that the charming plot of the front half degenerates into just another fight. Without Paragus and the story material tying into the history of the saiyans, Broly has nothing going for him IMO, so him coming back at all is a weak concept. Gohan is less the Goku of the standard formula than the Vegeta, the guy who wasn't even around for the front half and only turns up for the fighting; a bigger waste, in other words. And while I understand the appeal the father/sons Kamehameha has for people...I just don't care. Goku doesn't have any relationship with Goten to speak of at that point, and just like I wish more and more the next generation got to properly lead the series, I wish more and more Goku had stayed dead after the Cell Games.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by Cipher » Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:21 pm

Oh. We completely agreed on Movie 10. It's one of my favorites.

It looks gorgeous (in all three of artwork/design, animation, and coreography/staging), the character interactions are fun (you highlighted how well the Goten/Trunks/Broly dynamic works), we get surprises like Videl fighting the main villain, on top of a lake in that gorgeous sequence no less, and it sets up the excellent score for much of the Boo arc.

If the goal of the Z movies is simply to provide engaging character interactions, flashy visuals, and a new score for 45 minutes to an hour, this is among the most successful and watchable in the run for me. Like you, I also get frustrated with those too beholden to formula or that act as digest versions for content in the main series (though those also had their place in an era before home releases of any other animation were common). Really, the only way I see Movie 10 being a letdown is if your only focus or stake in terms of enjoyment is tied to the charisma of its main villain. And even then, Broly still has plenty of presence in this movie and remains legitimately threatening (so that Goten, Trunks and even Videl not taking him seriously gives us humor and tension upping each other rather than simply existing in two separate spheres in tandem--an combination the Boo arc itself also unlocks), and if that's all you care about, I have to say I don't really get the fuss about Movies 9 or 12.

Movie 11, which I really want to like because of its offbeat premise and cast, I have much less positive to say about. That's mostly because it commits the cardinal sin of being Dragon Ball trying really hard to be funny, but ... not actually being funny. The simultaneous character-based humor and tension of characters facing Broly not in the know is gone in the follow-up as well, and then it doesn't have the excellent visuals and atmosphere 10 has, with rather dully staged action and the drab lab setting taking up most of its runtime. That issue of trying to be funny but ... not being it is something that rears its head in an upcoming fan-favorite as well.

That all said--It is weird that both the Dragon Ball-appearing necklace and the monster threatening the village aren't tied into the Dragon Ball plot and Broly's presence respectively. (Like, maybe Broly's bad juju could have been causing the local wildlife to act up, and the dinosaur had only been threatening the village for "the last seven years or so"; something to make it less random.) Those seem like gimmes. But oh well! What we get is fun, and those little plot disconnects certainly aren't among the Z movies' worst. We also get the coherence of the starting activity continuing through and playing a role in what characters are doing during the climax, as you pointed out, which is weirdly rare in Z films, and maybe even wholly absent outside of this and Movie 13.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by Paleomario66 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:49 pm

I will give Movie 10 credit for trying to distance itself from the formula by focusing on different characters. The Videl/Goten/Trunks team up, and characters new to hunting the Dragon Balls being the main focus here are ideas I really appreciate, and there were several moments I really enjoyed (Videl's argument with Trunks, Goten and Trunks messing around with the dinosaur, and Videl being shocked by how strong the boys are). It's definitely more ambitious than the boring, bland, formulaic Movie 7. And as some other people have said, it looks absolutely gorgeous. The character designs are great, and while I'm not big on the fights in this movie, they are well-animated.

Despite that, I really don’t like this movie. It’s easily my least favorite of all the Broli movies, and my second least favorite of all the Dragon Ball movies (not counting Episode of Bardock since it’s a special, not a movie). I like it better than Movie 7, but not by that much.

Movie 10 is way too all over the place for me to enjoy it. The plot with the village doesn't interest me at all, and the scene with the trio in hiding trying to lure in the monster with a bunch of food frustrates me to no end. I don't see why they have fruit in that pile, and why Videl is so against them taking an apple or two. Considering the stories that they've heard from the village, it would be common sense to assume that the monster is a carnivore. And Videl slapping Goten... what the hell? Why didn't she slap Trunks too? Hypocrisy much? And I also hate Goten's crying being the reason for Broli waking up in the first place. How did Broli even hear him? I've said before that there are some funny scenes with Videl/Goten/Trunks that I enjoy, but this is not one of them.

Oh, there's another thing: Broli. There is no chance in hell that he could survive his explosive death in Movie 8, let alone end up in a space pod (the last of which he destroyed along with Paragus) that winds up on Earth, land in an area that becomes flooded with water and not drown, then get frozen in ice for 7 years. The beginning of the film is such a logical failure that it's unbelievable (Other movies have problems like this too [like Meta-Coola's head somehow floating close enough to Namek], but this is one of the worst ones).

As for Broli's character, I'm not a fan. He wasn't a fantastic villain or anything in Movie 8, but at least he was interesting. In Movie 10, he just, grunts, screams, and yells, "Kakarrotto!" That's it. And I will admit that initially, Broli wasn't the main focus of the movie and that his seriousness could make him a good foil for Goten and Trunks, but I don't think they needed to butcher his character like this to do so. Goten and Trunks could still not be taking things seriously since they've never been in danger, and Broli could be toying with them in the same way as he did to the Dragon Team in Movie 8 (while still in regular SS instead of LSS), and that would still be a good dynamic with Trunks and Goten since Trunks/Goten and Broli would still be chaotic for different reasons.

Gohan showing up, while it makes sense to some extent since he wouldn't just leave Goten and Trunks to handle Broli, takes the spotlight away from Goten and Trunks like with Goku showing up during the Freeza Arc. Actually, no, it's worse, since it comes completely out of nowhere. At least in the Freeza Arc, it's already established that Goku is coming to Namek later on. In this movie? No. It sidelines Goten and Trunks, making this another "big fight" like in the other movies, getting rid of the unique concepts I praised earlier (though I still thought they were poorly executed, to begin with, I'm disappointed that Gohan butchered it even more).

Although, since Gohan did get involved, why didn't Vegeta and Piccolo get involved? I see no reason why they'd stay out of a fight with someone like Broli. It makes no sense at all. The Kuririn in Piccolo's outfit gag was a decent subversion of Koyama's formula, but I don't see how Gohan could mistake him for Piccolo. Plus, Kuririn gets owned just like in the previous Z movies, and I see no reason why he would wear Piccolo's clothing.

You mentioned that you didn't care about powerscaling, which is totally fair, and I understand it. However, Videl surviving hits from Broli is a case where I believe the complaints are justified. There is no reason Videl should survive a fight with Broli, or that Broli would hold back against her, especially given how wild and uncontrollable he is, particularly in this movie (since he barely says anything other than "Kakarrotto!" If the movie established that Broli was holding back tremendously, or Movie 10 Videl was a lot stronger than the one in the manga or anime, I could accept this, but it's way too outlandish for me to accept it. Goten and Trunks surviving a fight with Broli I could see if they were in Super Saiyan, since Broli isn't in his Legendary Super Saiyan form, but they were in base form, and it's not well-established if Broli was toying with them, to begin with.

I'd definitely want characters like Videl to be relevant, but I also don't want them performing absurd feats that contradict their previous showings at that point in the story. In the case of Kuririn matching Blue Goku's Kamehameha in Super, it was already stated that he was no match for Goku, and it was implied that Goku was holding back. Movie 10 never has implications like these.

And now for my final issue with the movie: the Family Kamehameha. It's a great idea, but like other things in the movie, I feel it's poorly executed. How does Goku even come back to life? It's left vague on purpose, but the way it's done feels like the movie's just throwing stuff in with no explanation. Nobody ever stated a wish, Shenlong was never summoned, and it's never explained if Goku was just back from the dead like with Uranai Baba giving him 24 hours of life. There is so much going on with this that doesn't make sense. Not only that, but Goku takes the spotlight from Gohan, Goten, and Trunks, moving further from the unique dynamics that this movie had the potential to explore more.

I used to consider Movie 10 the worst Z movie, though I thought about it some more and decided that it's better than Movie 7 because it at least has new ideas, tried to be something different, and has great visuals and character designs.

I get why you enjoy Movie 10, and we can both agree that it's better than Movie 7, but I still can't stand this movie. It's too nonsensical and absurd for me to enjoy it, and while I like some of the ideas of this movie, I don't feel they're handled well. One big thing that maybe could have made this better if the villain wasn't Broli, and the film focused more on Videl, Goten, and Trunks throughout. There are a lot of other things I'd change too, but that's one of the biggest ones.

Here's a summary of my positive and negative opinions of Movie 10:
+Love the idea of a Videl/Goten/Trunks dynamic, and there are a few scenes that work really well
+The movie distances itself from the typical Z movie formula, which is nice
-Most of the ideas I praised in this movie are not executed well
-Broli surviving Movie 8, getting in a space pod, landing on Earth, being covered in water without drowning, and being frozen in ice is completely illogical
-The village plot isn't interesting at all
-The scene with Goten's crying waking up Broli is absolutely terrible
-Broli as a character is incredibly boring
-Videl surviving a fight with Broli makes no sense whatsoever
-Kuririn is wasted
-Gohan steals the spotlight from the kids like Goku did in the Freeza Arc, and in some ways, it's even worse than that
-Since Gohan did show up, there's no reason why Piccolo and Vegeta wouldn't since the enemy is Broli
-The Family Kamehameha is not only illogical, but Goku coming back to defeat the villain is another part of the DBZ formula

I'm really looking forward to seeing your opinion on Movie 11. Despite the hate it gets, I actually like it to some extent. The Goten/Trunks dynamic is something I enjoyed in that movie a lot more, #18 and Mr. Satan are there, they're actually part of the big fight, Kuririn is somewhat more than just a joke, and other characters like Gohan don't steal the spotlight. There's a lot of weird and nonsensical elements of Movie 11, but it has a lot of unique ideas that help it stand out, and unlike with Movie 10, I don't feel those concepts are mishandled.

And while I disagreed strongly with your opinion on Movie 10, it was still really nice to see you give some defense for it, especially since a lot of people (including myself) dislike it, though not as much as Movie 11.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:52 pm

My main problem with Movie 10 is that I don't care for Goten and Trunks as characters in general, and the whole beginning subplot with the Dragon Ball hunt and the village is so goddamn boring, and then on top of that you have Broly at his dullest arriving in an implausible matter as the poster above me illustrated.

And then my biggest problem: the Goku part. Much like with Broly's survival, the mechanics don't make sense. When have the Dragon Balls worked like that in any sense? Just granting a wish it overheard, bringing a guy back for a second and...ugh, just everything really. If they were trying to be ambiguous about whether Goku actually came back or if he were just the friends we made a long way blah blah blah then why did the Dragon Balls scatter. Just sloppy.

Pretty much the only thing I give this movie credit for is the Krillin/Piccolo gag.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by Cipher » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:05 am

I really have to disagree that the film would have been better off without Broly. His known menace and presence is precisely one of the things that makes it work, as we understand the tension of Videl (to our unease) and later Goten and Trunks (to our unease but also in a comical sense) not knowing what they’re up against when challenging him. Gohan’s fight becomes more tense and interesting without wasting time establishing a new dynamic as well.

This saves us from 1) having to waste time with serious villain setup in a movie not focused on or needing a charismatic villain du jour, and 2) getting another hum-drum nobody like Bojack to fill that role, which would reduce the fun of the movie substantially. We know who Broly is, we know from Movie 8 that he’s scary, he has a cool presence and design, he hasn’t met most of these characters before—okay, let’s get moving.

In a weird way, a Broly return is the perfect choice for a movie in which the villain isn’t the focus. I’m not saying the solution for mixing up focus or formula was always “just reuse a villain,” but in this particular instance, with these particular characters, it does the job really well. The humor (and way their childishness feeds into tension) of Goten/Trunks/Gotenks also depends on their opponent, and Broly is, I think, the character to best leverage that outside of Boo, for reasons covered in the video (but for a recap, you have the simultaneous humor and tension of Broly and Goten/Trunks speaking past each other, so to speak—having no idea and not bothering to care what the other side is about or after). Beerus works well with Gotenks too, with Gotenks (of all people) trying to chide him for his inanity and pettiness, but that never gets off the ground.

Not having the Dragon Balls scatter would have added some welcome ambiguity, but then we’d all just be questioning why they didn’t pull out the radar and search for them in the crystal quarry again. I’m fine with Toei Dragon Balls stretching credulity and rewarding a wish made improperly in dire earnestness from time to time. It won’t be the last time they do it.

So, yeah... Everything the Z movies are meant to do as harmless spectacle and story-light character interaction is in rare form here. I only see taking issue with it if enjoyment is tied solely to their villains—which, maybe it is for some people.

I don’t think I like it more than the ambitious (and tone-defying, with the seriousness of its plot and villain) Movie 8, nor 13, but of the 45-minute “preamble plus flashy fight” Z movies, it’s probably in my top two or three. M-maybe my #1 of that lot even?

It’s really pretty. I actually don’t know why more discussion of it doesn’t focus on how good its art direction is. Broly vs. Videl is gorgeous, and the crystal quarry might be my favorite location in the run—unique and interesting without being gaudy. Even something as simple as “landscape with magma” winds up looking gorgeous in the final third of the movie, thanks to decisions made with coloration and framing. In a run of movies where the most interesting locations tend to come down in a lot of cases to “dark, busy, and some shade of purple,” the crispness of the locations in this movie stands out, while not being bland and drab like the glacier of Movie 7 or empty battlefield that is Namek in 6.

Also:
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:52 pmAnd then my biggest problem: the Goku part. Much like with Broly's survival, the mechanics don't make sense. When have the Dragon Balls worked like that in any sense? Just granting a wish it overheard, bringing a guy back for a second and...ugh, just everything really. If they were trying to be ambiguous about whether Goku actually came back or if he were just the friends we made a long way blah blah blah then why did the Dragon Balls scatter. Just sloppy.
When have the mechanics of the finales of any of the Z films made sense?

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/20!)

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:22 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:05 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:52 pmAnd then my biggest problem: the Goku part. Much like with Broly's survival, the mechanics don't make sense. When have the Dragon Balls worked like that in any sense? Just granting a wish it overheard, bringing a guy back for a second and...ugh, just everything really. If they were trying to be ambiguous about whether Goku actually came back or if he were just the friends we made a long way blah blah blah then why did the Dragon Balls scatter. Just sloppy.
When have the mechanics of the finales of any of the Z films made sense?
The only movie finales that didn't make much sense to me was Movie 8 with the channeling energy thing and Movie 13's SUPA TOEI PUNCH. Movie 10 is so off the gord that I can't even make the slightest leap in logic to explain it, and then the mystery of it is presented so sloppily that I can only conclude that it was just a half-assed way to get Goku in there.

As for the rest of your post, I've always seen Movie 10's animation highlighted as, well, the only redeeming factor. I think you're also underestimating people's distatse for the entire subplot preamble, a sentiment I've frequently seen mentioned about the movie. I know most subplots in the movies tend to be empty and meandering, but I think the simplest bar to clear for them is to make me not want to turn the movie off, and Movie 10 can't even do that. Even my 13-year-old "everything Dragon Ball is awesome" self was ready to break his TV when Goten started fake crying.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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