MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:32 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:51 am I remember Toriyama stating in a interview a few year ago that he had grown tired of fighting manga when he was writing the Majin Boo arc, and somes the sign of him getting burned out really show with how his storytelling become more haphazard, inconsistent and sloppy by that point.
Do you have the link to this interview? Seems interesting

In fact, if you think about it, most of the fights in the Boo arc are very short and don't usually last more than 1 chapter and the ones that are longer usually have a lot of dialogues and other events occurring during it (causing fewer panels to be dedicated to the fight itself).

I mean, maybe this is the way that Toriyama used to not be completely overwhelmed by the accumulated tiredness of a decade drawing a weekly manga, since the art itself has remained relatively consistent in the Boo arc even with all of that. But it is a curious fact nonetheless

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:57 am

I wonder at what point Toriyama decided he was bored if Gohan. I know the OP talks about it a bit the tournament episode but there was Mystic Gohan. Always wondered if he originally intended for Gohan to best Buu.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:54 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:32 pm
Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:51 am I remember Toriyama stating in a interview a few year ago that he had grown tired of fighting manga when he was writing the Majin Boo arc, and somes the sign of him getting burned out really show with how his storytelling become more haphazard, inconsistent and sloppy by that point.
Do you have the link to this interview? Seems interesting

In fact, if you think about it, most of the fights in the Boo arc are very short and don't usually last more than 1 chapter and the ones that are longer usually have a lot of dialogues and other events occurring during it (causing fewer panels to be dedicated to the fight itself).

I mean, maybe this is the way that Toriyama used to not be completely overwhelmed by the accumulated tiredness of a decade drawing a weekly manga, since the art itself has remained relatively consistent in the Boo arc even with all of that. But it is a curious fact nonetheless
Ehhhhhhhhh, nah. As you can see in some of the images in the video alone, this is the point where Toriyama's art started getting really sloppy. Clumsily drawn characters with weird midget-like body proportions and skinny arms start popping up all over the place around this time.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:47 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:54 am Ehhhhhhhhh, nah. As you can see in some of the images in the video alone, this is the point where Toriyama's art started getting really sloppy. Clumsily drawn characters with weird midget-like body proportions and skinny arms start popping up all over the place around this time.
I think the best example of this is, a few months ago, I had someone in the comments accuse me of using fake scans because he legitimately refused to believe the official art was actually as rough as it was in my videos.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:56 am

i think i said it before in this thread but it does suck because i think the early boo arc has better art then a majority of the cell arc, but as the arc goes on and on the art just gets so much worse, gohan vs super boo especially just looks terrible. i know toriyama had been drawing weekly manga for just about 14 years with only a few months worth of breaks, not to mention the dragon quest artwork and his couple one shots, so i don't wanna be super duper harsh, but jeez. even the more detailed stuff i think looks pretty bad, like the title page for chapter 467 has that drawing of vegeta that barely even looks like him.

though his chrono trigger artwork from the same year is probably my favorite toriyama art post 1988 so what do i know.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:58 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:32 pm
Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:51 am I remember Toriyama stating in a interview a few year ago that he had grown tired of fighting manga when he was writing the Majin Boo arc, and somes the sign of him getting burned out really show with how his storytelling become more haphazard, inconsistent and sloppy by that point.
Do you have the link to this interview? Seems interesting
Here ya go.

Here's what Toriyama said:

"The greatest enemy fight in “Kai” is the sublime face-off with Majin Buu, and Majin Buu was also the final enemy in Dragon Ball's weekly manga serialization. The final enemy is round, strong, and very persistent! ...It was such a repetitious and violent fight that even me, the person drawing the manga, came to hate continuing the fight. Now that I've become an old man with high blood pressure and a liking for bland foods, I will not draw this kind of fighting again. Actually, I've lost the want to draw fighting manga ever since [the Majin Buu saga]."

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:10 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:58 am Here's what Toriyama said:

"The greatest enemy fight in “Kai” is the sublime face-off with Majin Buu, and Majin Buu was also the final enemy in Dragon Ball's weekly manga serialization. The final enemy is round, strong, and very persistent! ...It was such a repetitious and violent fight that even me, the person drawing the manga, came to hate continuing the fight. Now that I've become an old man with high blood pressure and a liking for bland foods, I will not draw this kind of fighting again. Actually, I've lost the want to draw fighting manga ever since [the Majin Buu saga]."
That is quite the interesting quote. It lines up somewhat with a slightly more recent interview he did with Toyotaro where he said he would have liked to have continued Gohan in high school but knew people expected the fighting to start up again. I feel The Boo Arc is an amazing example of the artist waging a battle between what would make him happy and what the audience wants. And I feel the former elements are where The Boo Arc shines, while the latter elements drag it down immensely.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:14 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:56 am i think i said it before in this thread but it does suck because i think the early boo arc has better art then a majority of the cell arc, but as the arc goes on and on the art just gets so much worse, gohan vs super boo especially just looks terrible
Honestly, when the art of Boo arc is at its best, I prefer its style over the Cell arc. I just love Goku's look in this arc


I don't think it was that bad, but I understand the complaints. But I believe that the smaller number of panels dedicated to the fights may have been the price for the art not to have completely collapsed in the Boo arc
Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:58 am
Here's what Toriyama said:

"The greatest enemy fight in “Kai” is the sublime face-off with Majin Buu, and Majin Buu was also the final enemy in Dragon Ball's weekly manga serialization. The final enemy is round, strong, and very persistent! ...It was such a repetitious and violent fight that even me, the person drawing the manga, came to hate continuing the fight. Now that I've become an old man with high blood pressure and a liking for bland foods, I will not draw this kind of fighting again. Actually, I've lost the want to draw fighting manga ever since [the Majin Buu saga]."
Thanks. Wow, I didn't expect Toriyama to be that straightforward. And this is a statement made just 6-7 years ago, so since the completion of the original series he never really wanted drawing a fighting manga again (and that despite saying later he had become too attached to Dragon Ball to ever leave alone). It must have been a lot of pressure

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Skar » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:27 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:58 amHere's what Toriyama said:
Wow it's the first time I've seen this quote before! I thought you might've been referring to what he said in the 30th anniversary history book. He said he was burned out after the Freeza saga and wanted to end the story no matter what at Buu. I can always respect an author for being honest and wanting to give their series a conclusion.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Yuji » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:56 pm

Considering Goku's arc focuses on finding a successor to defend the Earth, I find it believable he would want to save the most amount of time possible in the RoSaT. The boys are, well, boys. They have their entire lives ahead of them, lives he at this point thought would be used to defend the Earth. So even if it's an hour, thirty minutes or a minute, every single second could count later. I'd say it's Goku being surprisingly level-headed in preventing potential future complications. Plus, Goku says in the same scene (or slightly later) that any deaths can be undone with the dragon balls (which, as we've seen until this point in the story, seem essentially indestructible; and even if not, there's the Namekian balls, the radar is really the only thing necessary - and the prospect of its destruction is the only time he's worried in this segment). So he isn't entirely concerned with Majin Boo killing people as long as he's not aware of their current position.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/29/21!)

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:59 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:14 pm
Honestly, when the art of Boo arc is at its best, I prefer its style over the Cell arc. I just love Goku's look in this arc

yeah i actually like the facial expressions for the most part, goten especially gets some pretty good ones, which helps a lot to separate him design wise. that's something i didn't really notice as a kid but it makes him stand out, same with kid trunks.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:58 am

Tavarano wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:23 pm Gyūmaō was implied to be a mass murderer and was about to kill Bulma and Oolong before Goku came back, Bulma tried to shoot a kid she just met, Yamcha had a paunzerfaust and a machine gun, Oolong also bullied Puar in school as far as his bad actions go. Immoral actions being normalized is a "running joke" of Toriyama's stories, and it's not an accident, he admitted to doing it on purpose. Frieza's next.
I'm sorry to quote a comment from years ago and to derail away from the current conversation but I was reading through the wuxia conversation in this thread, got to this image, had an aneurysm, and am now giggling madly. I wish to God that had been the endgame for Super. Freeza running a totalitarian galactic empire while also yuking it up on Earth. It would have made Super worth it. Just imagine the fandom-wide freakout if Vegeta got Yamcha'd by Freeza. Picture it. Makes me shiver just thinking about it!
Yuji wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:56 pm Considering Goku's arc focuses on finding a successor to defend the Earth, I find it believable he would want to save the most amount of time possible in the RoSaT. The boys are, well, boys. They have their entire lives ahead of them, lives he at this point thought would be used to defend the Earth.
It's been a few years since I've read through Buu but was that really Goku's goal? He doesn't seem to care about finding a successor elsewhere. To be honest, he doesn't seem to care about defending the Earth at all except on a very superficial level.

When Goku fights with Vegeta he pays no mind to how quickly his fight might charge up Buu. When the Kaioshin tries to stop him Goku threatens him. And when Buu starts genociding the Earth's population Goku, pretty callously imo, reminds everyone they can use the Dragon Balls to ressurrect everyone. Which he also did during Gohan's fight against Cell. Goku likes Earth just fine (its where his dinner gets made!) but ensuring its safety has never seemed to be a priority.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Yuji » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:11 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:58 am It's been a few years since I've read through Buu but was that really Goku's goal? He doesn't seem to care about finding a successor elsewhere. To be honest, he doesn't seem to care about defending the Earth at all except on a very superficial level.

When Goku fights with Vegeta he pays no mind to how quickly his fight might charge up Buu. When the Kaioshin tries to stop him Goku threatens him. And when Buu starts genociding the Earth's population Goku, pretty callously imo, reminds everyone they can use the Dragon Balls to ressurrect everyone. Which he also did during Gohan's fight against Cell. Goku likes Earth just fine (its where his dinner gets made!) but ensuring its safety has never seemed to be a priority.
It may have been thoughtless writing on Toriyama's part, but Goku does state at least twice in the arc he wants to let the kids handle things because he's not gonna be around forever (once to Piccolo after the fight with Boo and afterwards to Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo). It follows logically from his declaration at the end of the Cell arc that Gohan is better suited to the role of hero than he is, and his arc is actualized when he meets Oob who he sees both as a great sparring partner and as a needed successor when the time comes - Oob functions as the best of both worlds, the heroic savior (the role he intended for Gohan and Goten) and the self-indulgent fighter (the role he plays).

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:31 pm

Yuji wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:11 pm It may have been thoughtless writing on Toriyama's part, but Goku does state at least twice in the arc he wants to let the kids handle things because he's not gonna be around forever (once to Piccolo after the fight with Boo and afterwards to Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo). It follows logically from his declaration at the end of the Cell arc that Gohan is better suited to the role of hero than he is, and his arc is actualized when he meets Oob who he sees both as a great sparring partner and as a needed successor when the time comes - Oob functions as the best of both worlds, the heroic savior (the role he intended for Gohan and Goten) and the self-indulgent fighter (the role he plays).
Sure. But if Goku's using Uub primarily as a sparring partner he can train up and relying on Uub's sense of right and wrong to nudge him towards looking after the Earth once Goku's gone, then it still feels like Earth is an after thought. It's fortunate that him asking for Buu's reincarnation resulted in a potential protector for Earth and good on Goku for taking the time to actually train Uub but ultimately this is still about finding someone to trade blows with. There's no sense of responsibility or duty on display which, if Goku were truly being motivated by a desire to protect, would show up somewhere. And that, to me, seems to run counter to the idea that Goku's Buu-era character arc is about finding a replacement.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Yuji » Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:14 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:31 pm
Yuji wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:11 pm It may have been thoughtless writing on Toriyama's part, but Goku does state at least twice in the arc he wants to let the kids handle things because he's not gonna be around forever (once to Piccolo after the fight with Boo and afterwards to Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo). It follows logically from his declaration at the end of the Cell arc that Gohan is better suited to the role of hero than he is, and his arc is actualized when he meets Oob who he sees both as a great sparring partner and as a needed successor when the time comes - Oob functions as the best of both worlds, the heroic savior (the role he intended for Gohan and Goten) and the self-indulgent fighter (the role he plays).
Sure. But if Goku's using Uub primarily as a sparring partner he can train up and relying on Uub's sense of right and wrong to nudge him towards looking after the Earth once Goku's gone, then it still feels like Earth is an after thought. It's fortunate that him asking for Buu's reincarnation resulted in a potential protector for Earth and good on Goku for taking the time to actually train Uub but ultimately this is still about finding someone to trade blows with. There's no sense of responsibility or duty on display which, if Goku were truly being motivated by a desire to protect, would show up somewhere. And that, to me, seems to run counter to the idea that Goku's Buu-era character arc is about finding a replacement.
But he blatantly says that he's looking for a replacement himself and that he didn't handle fat Boo because of it. His modern portrayal aside, Goku wasn't that careless and aloof in the original run.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:48 pm

Yuji wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:14 pm But he blatantly says that he's looking for a replacement himself and that he didn't handle fat Boo because of it. His modern portrayal aside, Goku wasn't that careless and aloof in the original run.
Not to be flippant but Goku says a lot of things. He also said he was going to Namek to 'help out' when it was patently obvious he just wanted to pit himself against Freeza and his soldiers. I think, on average, it's better to look at what Goku does, not what he says.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Yuji » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:47 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:48 pm
Yuji wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:14 pm But he blatantly says that he's looking for a replacement himself and that he didn't handle fat Boo because of it. His modern portrayal aside, Goku wasn't that careless and aloof in the original run.
Not to be flippant but Goku says a lot of things. He also said he was going to Namek to 'help out' when it was patently obvious he just wanted to pit himself against Freeza and his soldiers. I think, on average, it's better to look at what Goku does, not what he says.
Right, and what he did was teach Goten and Trunks fusion rather than killing Boo himself, just as he gave up and threw Gohan at Cell the previous arc rather than going all out and sacrificing himself before his son could fight. He was clearly invested in this whole successor ordeal.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 am

The Maturity of Son Goku - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 17!

Goku steps into the role of mentor to train Goten and Trunks in the art of Fusion. At the same time, he takes it upon himself to further the wedge been Majin Boo and Bobbidi. Has Goku finally matured as a character? And what does Super Saiyan 3 have to do with all of this?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:39 am

Gaffer Tape wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 am The Maturity of Son Goku - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 17!

Goku steps into the role of mentor to train Goten and Trunks in the art of Fusion. At the same time, he takes it upon himself to further the wedge been Majin Boo and Bobbidi. Has Goku finally matured as a character? And what does Super Saiyan 3 have to do with all of this?
I wanted to make a preemptive point relating to this post. I am going to watch the video of course and hear your points but I actually think Super Saiyan 3 is a fairly justified inclusion to the story.
1. It establishes Buu as being greater than everyone as SSJ2 through fighting one warrior who is 4xSSj2. Sure numbers aren't important, but SSJ3 helps explain to the reader the stakes and why different methods of power are needed to be acquired.
2. It perfectly highlights issues with transformations which later comes into play with Gohan's potential unleash state
3. It helps push Goku out of the story for a bit, sure this might not be a good defense but I should be fair and say that the classic Goku separated from the pack element is helped by SSJ3 draining him
4. It gives Vegeta a tangible thing to associate with Goku being his superior at the climax of the story by showing Goku capable of reaching such a height in power.

Those are at least my reasons for thinking the inclusion matters. Again this could all be torn a sunder by your video but I thought I would quickly share. Excited for the video regardless.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:49 am

Super Saiyan 3 is one of the biggest narrative misfires Toriyama has ever come up with and really represents how Toriyama was creatively running on fumes in Majin Boo and was just introducing new transformations to pad out the plot.

I've gone into great detail about this in the past:

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