MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[Kid Buu]

Gaffer Tape got new theory for you. Perhaps Toriyama intended to keep the protagonists dead, hence why he killed Shenlong? Krillin is replaced by Yajirobe, Master Roshi's role in the story is finished, and no one gives a shit about Chaozu. I wonder if Yajirobe failed to win over fans or something, so Toriyama decided to bring them back.

EDIT: Also are you going to talk about how Nappa would later avenge the death of Chaozu by killing Piccolo or is that too far ahead? Nappa, the true hero of DBZ.

[Gaffer Tape]

Not sure if I ever thought about it that way before. To go with my gut, though, I doubt it. It just seems too dark for Dragon Ball to permanently kill off main characters like that. And not just kill them off but have them find no rest either. Granted, that last bit was only mentioned after it was clear they were going to be revived, so maybe that's not fair to mention.

I do agree with the idea that Toriyama was probably trying to phase out certain characters, though. I think if you look at this arc and the following one, Kuririn seemed pretty ready to go that way. I think, whether by design or coincidence, the fact that Kuririn survived the Saiyan fight and was therefore available to go to Namek ensured his character would remain relevant while pretty much every character who didn't win a trip to the most boring planet in the universe was relegated to the background.

To go even deeper into that, though, I think if it was coincidence, it happened like this: Because Kuririn died in the Piccolo arc, and it had been established at that point he wouldn't be able to come back again, he probably wouldn't die again so soon. Yamucha and Tenshinhan could both afford to die. Piccolo HAD to die in order for the next story to happen at all. And Chaozu... well, sadly, Toriyama couldn't give less of a fuck. So when the dust clears, who do we have left to go to Namek? Kuririn.

[Kid Buu]

Recently a guy I know read the manga for the first time and I mentioned your videos and his thoughts on the Daimao arc; his response was that he didn't mind adding Yajirobe since he was very different from the other characters, but he wanted Kuririn to stay dead. He liked Kuririn very much and his death had a big impact, and he felt like it would have been a great exit from the series had it stuck. He also didn't really care much for Kuririn's role once he was brought back as he found the character useless as a fighter in the next arc, was killed off and revived again and then faded into the background.

Regarding the Saiyan Arc, I agree what you said but I feel there is more to it. For one, I believe he also killed off Yamcha as an excuse to get Bulma to go to Namek, but she unfortunately was a completely wasted character there (I admit I enjoy all her anime-original scenes on Namek though). As for Tenshinhan, maybe I'm being petty, but I believe Toriyama went out of his way to spite the character. I think Toriyama was trying to push Piccolo as a protagonist, and because he is similar to Tenshinhan, he was trying to push down Tenshinhan too. One arc before that Tenshinhan was easily the most pro-active character of the B-Team; he was the only one to win a fight at the tournament, got to save everyone when he made the Kikoho hole, and would have saved everyone from Piccolo by killing Kami if Goku lost. Next arc Tenshinhan died straight away, to the point that even his voice actors makes jokes about it. I wish Tenshinhan and Chaozu choose to stay dead as that would have been better closure for them, in my opinion. Another thing I'd add to your note on Kuririn is that Toriyama was pushing Gohan as a character and Gohan needed a babysitter on Namek, so Kuririn filled that void too.

Also this guy mentioned was that the first time he felt dissapointed with the series was the Urani Baba arc, mainly because Yamcha being worfed made it pretty obvious he wasn't going to be important after that and there wouldn't be any story change if Toriyama had let Yamcha win that fight and had Goku beat the rest. That got me thinking of when I was first mad at Toriyama's narrative, and I recall that moment right that I had the same sentiment. So yeah, if I had to pick a decline in the series, it would be that moment right there.

Randomly, another friend who I showed your videos too wanted me to as you if you dislike Goku. To quote her directly "As he became increasingly and ridiculously powerful, he outshines and overshadows the supporting cast constantly. Did that lead to some resentment or at least annoyance of his character?" I don't think you dislike him, but I thought maybe I'd ask to double check.

[TheGmGoken]

Ten voice actors mocked him? Can't say I blame him though.

[Kid Buu]

There's a few interviews on this site that feature him and he does take some jabs at the character. Like I remember him calling Tenshinhan a weakling and the he laughed. He was also says nothing really stood out to him outside the fact that Tenshinhan likes Chaozu.

[RandomGuy96]

There's a few interviews on this site that feature him and he does take some jabs at the character. Like I remember him calling Tenshinhan a weakling and the he laughed. He was also says nothing really stood out to him outside the fact that Tenshinhan likes Chaozu.

You got a link? That vaguely reminds me of when Yamcha's voice actor, distressed by the character's shitty treatment in the android arc, asked Toriyama why it had to be this way. Toriyama responded "Come on, Yamcha's a cheater! haha".

[TheGmGoken]

There's a few interviews on this site that feature him and he does take some jabs at the character. Like I remember him calling Tenshinhan a weakling and the he laughed. He was also says nothing really stood out to him outside the fact that Tenshinhan likes Chaozu.

You got a link? That vaguely reminds me of when Yamcha's voice actor, distressed by the character's shitty treatment in the android arc, asked Toriyama why it had to be this way. Toriyama responded "Come on, Yamcha's a cheater! haha".

Found some
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ice-talks/

Suzuoki: The process of Tenshinhan becoming a good guy along the way was fun. In the second half, he doesn’t have many appearances… he’s weak. (laughs) He would fight, at least, but he’d lose immediately, and go back to not showing up. The intervals got wider… like the Olympic

Questions:


What did you most enjoy about being a cast [member] in “Dragon Ball Z”?
What was the hardest thing about the recording sessions?
Did being involved in the show’s production change you in any way?
Which of your lines left the biggest impression on you, and why?
What episode or scene left the biggest impression on you?
Which character would you have liked to try playing, and why?
If you could get one wish granted by the Dragon Balls, what would it be?

Ten's VA answers:


Being able to meet everyone each week.
Nothing really.
Not particularly.
“Chiaotzu!!” Because I like Chiaotzu.
I can’t remember.
None.
World peace

[RandomGuy96]

Suzuoki: The process of Tenshinhan becoming a good guy along the way was fun. In the second half, he doesn’t have many appearances… he’s weak. (laughs) He would fight, at least, but he’d lose immediately, and go back to not showing up.

Oh, that's just hilarious.

[Kid Buu]

Speaking of which, today is Yamcha's, I mean Toru Furuya's, birthday!

Furuya's response to the same question from the interview with Tenshinhan's voice actor:

What did you most enjoy about being a cast [member] in “Dragon Ball Z”?
Being able to know what happens next in the story before regular fans did.
What was the hardest thing about the recording sessions?
Not laughing at Kaiō-sama’s puns during the performance.
Did being involved in the show’s production change you in any way?
I think it widened my fan base.
Which of your lines left the biggest impression on you, and why?
"Sokidan!” Because it’s Yamcha’s strongest special attack, and one nobody else has.
What episode or scene left the biggest impression on you?
The scene where Yamcha had a part-time job playing baseball.
Which character would you have liked to try playing, and why?
Goku. Because he really is strong.
If you could get one wish granted by the Dragon Balls, what would it be?
“Safety and security for my family.”

So Gaffer Tape, which theme did you like better? Wolf Hurricane or The Ookami?

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't know if I agree that Yamucha dying was an excuse to get Blooma to go to Namek. Not that this is conclusive, but it's not really mentioned by anyone that it's the reason. And I can certainly see her leaving even that to other people. The main reason she is forced to go is the same reason she was the one to go with Mr. Popo: because of her technical expertise that the other characters just don't have and can't really do without. So I think she would have had to have come regardless if Yamucha was dead or not. But, yeah, she was ultimately wasted in that arc.

As for Tenshinhan, I don't think it was out of spite, but I do agree that with Piccolo, Tenshinhan was a bit redundant. That and Tenshinhan just really isn't that interesting of a character. Or maybe that's not fair. Like a lot of other characters, he was interesting enough when he was introduced but not enough to carry him through multiple stories without adding more... which never happened. I'd say Toriyama just got bored with him.

While it would have been nice if Yamucha had gotten to beat the Mummy, I still don't think he was without merit in that arc. After all, he was in a major leadership role that entire time. And he got to beat the Suke-san. It's just annoying that, like his impressive fight against the Saibaiman, it's marred by certain circumstances that allow detractors to easily dismiss it. At least in this one, he did actually win (and didn't quickly die), though, and it seems likely he would have won anyway if both sides didn't commit to outside interference. So I don't think the Uranai Baba stuff is what ruined Yamucha's role. I don't think any one thing did that. It's just that he kept constantly being written that way in order to achieve the Worf Effect.

You can tell your friend that I don't dislike Goku. In fact, he's one of my favorite characters. The fact that he's better than everyone else is to be expected as he's the main character. Goku only starts to get on my nerves towards the end of the series when Toriyama starts tacking on selfish, annoying Saiyan traits to him that were never there before.

[RandomGuy96]

It's just annoying that, like his impressive fight against the Saibaiman, it's marred by certain circumstances that allow detractors to easily dismiss it.

How was his one on one draw with the Cultivar "impressive"? It was just a few pages and only involved two attacks actually landing, one by each fighter.

It's just that he kept constantly being written that way in order to achieve the Worf Effect.

I'd say he stopped serving that role after the 22nd Budokai. By the time Kami curbstomped him in the 23rd Budokai arc, he had long since lost all credibility, and beating him ceased to be impressive.

[Kid Buu]

See, RandomGuy96 post just validates my post that Yamcha lost credibility way earlier than 23rd Budokai. This could have easily been avoided with two minor changes: have Yamcha beat the Mummy and have Tenshinhan beat Goku clean. If he beats The Mummy as opposed to jobbing and having Goku one-shot him, then he doesn't look weak compared to Goku. If Tenshinhan beats Goku clean, then it doesn't look so bad that Yamcha lost to him too. Kind of like how fans give Yamcha and Krillin a pass on losing to Jackie Chun because Goku did too (despite his million asspulls).

And it's not just Yamcha either. It happens so many times: Tenshinhan/Drum, Piccolo/Nappa, Vegeta/Recoome, etc. The Yamcha/Mummy one was just the first, hence why I pinpoint the decline there. I felt like it was hard to become attached to characters like Piccolo in later arcs because they would be built-up only to fail. I'm not saying I should judge a characters worth on their battle records, but with Toriyama hyping someone only to hold their own in a meaningless fight, it just brings feel of disappointment.

As for Tenshinhan, his only interesting moment after the 23rd Budokai was stalling Cell and battling the Ginyu Force in the anime. I think he should have beaten Goku clean at the Budokai. In addition to what I said earlier, Goku basically winning-but-technically-not bugs me. Mainly because the 23rd Budokai is about him finally winning the tournament and beating Piccolo, when he has done both of those things before.

Speaking of the 22nd Budokai, I love how the guy Yamcha defeats in the preliminaries is called Mohawk Guy. That is just hilarious. Also, why didn't Toriyama even bother to show Chaozu winning a fight in the preliminaries? Or maybe he didn't even fight and rigged everyone's memories to think that he did?

[TheGmGoken]

Ten beating Goku clean would be horrible and make Goku less credible losing to someone like Ten. Plot wise that is. Should had just been a draw. Ten was a failed experiment by Toriyama. That's all he was. IMO he's was like a test to see how Toriyama draws serious based character. Since this Tenkaichi Budokai felt more personal and serious. Ten failed at maintain Toriyama and the audience attention span. Ten was to boring and had zero character. Yes he went through devolpedment but it wasn't pulled off good. Piccolo and Vegeta were. Ten failed. He deserved to fail.

[Gaffer Tape]

It's just annoying that, like his impressive fight against the Saibaiman, it's marred by certain circumstances that allow detractors to easily dismiss it.

How was his one on one draw with the Cultivar "impressive"? It was just a few pages and only involved two attacks actually landing, one by each fighter.

I'd say it's a fairly well-choreographed, if brief, fight, just like Tenshinhan's was. It shows that Yamucha was just as capable of defeating the Saibaimen as any of the rest of them. And despite what some people think, how a character shines is more than just his/her achievements in battle. It's an impressive fight because of the character moments surrounding it. Yamucha put himself on the line instead of letting Kuririn do it, and even Kuririn implies it probably would have happened to him otherwise. It's heartbreaking to see Kuririn's reaction to the death of a friend he probably spent more time with than any other in the series. It's just overall a very impressive scene.

Now, I know you, RandomGuy96, have it out for Yamucha, and you, Kid Buu, are a huge fan of him, but can we please remember that this is not the Yamucha Discussion Thread or Yamucha/Furuya Fan Club? I'm happy to debate any aspect of the series, but I really don't want this thread to be overtaken by such things. Thanks!

[Kid Buu]

I'd say there is just as much Tenshinhan talk in this thread as Yamcha talk as or right now, unless you are referring my comment on your FB Status, but that was just a joke that had someone respond to it so I responded back.

But yeah, I get what you mean that thread is turning into a generic DBZ chat room instead of a thread about your web series, so yeah I'll drop the Ten/Yamcha talk unless my mentioning of them is relevant to your latest episode.

[Gaffer Tape]

No need to drop anything entirely. I just know what happens when the three of us get together for a Yamucha debate. It usually ends up going on for several pages.

EDIT: Also, I prefer Wolf Hurricane.

[Kid Buu]

Karin expected Goku to die and was wrong about it? Makes you wonder why Goku went to him for intuition in the Cell Arc then.

I like the panel that has everyone at Master Roshi's house; Tenshinhan has a non-serious look for once.

Karin is Blue? I never knew that. I guess Beerus is the first cat not to be of a Blue/Purpleish color.

I like Mr. Popo's design, but the internet fandom makes me annoyed by hearing about the character, mainly because they keep repeating DBZ Abridged jokes.

Speaking of racism, are you going to cover homosexuality when Mr. Slave shows up? I've seen some complaints Mr. Slave's portrayal was offensive to the LBGT community.

The Swastika is actually a Symbol that Hilter stole Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism; so anyone who refers to it as just a bent X would be offending more than just Holocaust Survivors.

Are you a fan of Pokemon, or were you just covering Jynx because it ties into the Popo discussion? I ask because I remember watching another video of yours when you sing the theme song, something like that.

I do like Mr. Popo's lesson being a homage to Jackie Chun's lesson at the 21st Budokai. Too bad everyone seemed to forget about lesson that in the later arcs.

I don't think anyone doesn't gives a shit about Chaozu. The problem is, to keep a narrative interesting, you have to build tension and stakes to keep the readers in suspense. Had Chaozu used his full power; Piccolo, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, Guldo, Recoome, Burter, Jeice, Captain Ginyu, Freeza, King Cold, Dr. Gero, Lapis, Lazuli, Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura, Babidi, Majin Buu, Beerus, and Whis would have all died in one-shot. Can you imagine how boring the manga would be if it ended on an anti-climatic note like that? Good thing Chaozu lost on purpose, just on the sake on entertaining us manga readers.

[Saiga]

It's just annoying that, like his impressive fight against the Saibaiman, it's marred by certain circumstances that allow detractors to easily dismiss it.

How was his one on one draw with the Cultivar "impressive"? It was just a few pages and only involved two attacks actually landing, one by each fighter.

It's just that he kept constantly being written that way in order to achieve the Worf Effect.

I'd say he stopped serving that role after the 22nd Budokai. By the time Kami curbstomped him in the 23rd Budokai arc, he had long since lost all credibility, and beating him ceased to be impressive.

No, Yamcha's loss to God was still meant to be impressive.

But for Yamcha instead of God. The fact that God would smack him around was treated as a given by the story.

[Gaffer Tape]

The Piccolo Daimao Arc Part 6!

Always knew I'd have to do the Popo episode some day, and while I'm very proud of the way it turned out, I can't deny that it scares the bajeeezus out of me!

[FoolsGil]

On the topic of Popo, I have to say you were very respectable about the whole thing.

On to the discussion, I'm not a fan of the whole Kami and Piccolo are the same, and the whole how worthless Kami was and is:

Why didn't Popo or Kami take on King Piccolo? And if there is some rule about interference, what about the 23rd Budokai? Or find the budding Z Fighters and invite them to train with you until they can stop/capture King Piccolo?