MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by BWri » Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:31 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:41 pm The Cell and Buu arc conclusions show that if there's anything Toriyama can do, it's stick the fucking landing

Edit: ^Ah, if this came off as a snarky rebuttal to the above post, I didn't intend to :P
Definitely! He's great at setting up intrigue at the start of the arc as well. Both leave a lasting impression.

Looking back on it, this is probably the best that Goku and Vegeta's dynamic has ever been to me. It's just such a great crescendo for all the key players involved (Goku, Vegeta, Buu, and Satan).
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:57 pm

For your least favorite arc of the original manga, I’m surprised by the amount of positive things you’ve had to say, especially in regards to the climax. Great analysis on said climax, by the way. I agree, it’s great seeing characters prove useful in a way that doesn’t involve fighting.

With that said, I can’t shake the feeling that the tension at the end feels a bit forced. There’s no reason they couldn’t simply teleport Gohan, Goten and Trunks to the planet of the Kaioshin and have them gang up on Boo. Don’t get me wrong, that would’ve made for a fairly boring climax, but the fact that it was an option kind of invalidates the significance of Mr. Satan’s contribution, in my opinion.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:10 am

I like the joke that follows Vegeta's speech. DBZ isn't particularly funny to me, but that one right there cracked me up, and it doesn't invalidate the speech either.

I never had a problem separating the fact that Porunga considers Geets a good guy, and that he did awful things up to two days prior, and may still have to pay for it. It doesn't mean he is off the hook either, hellwise. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Death in the dbworld I've come to see as you having two lives, well, two if you know the Gods personally and they like you. Then you get a second "life" keeping your body in the afterlife, until somebody kills you for good and you are finally real-life dead.
Also, yeah, I never thought about the kaioshin going at it a second time against Buu and dying again. Good one. It makes sense, though, dumb gods, why not team up against Buu? Zamasu was right, perhaps.

The landing sticks, yeah, you didn't really know where the arc was going, who was the central piece, why some unnecessary things happen, but the ending make sense and connects the dots. And while the more practical approach would've been fetching the hybrids, the risk of the situation getting worse because of their immaturity of naivety also grows. I mean, that's the only reason I can see for the adults choosing to deal with Buu themselves and leave the WMD at home.

This fighting analysis comes at the right time, considering the DBS manga has been going for half a year with fights for the sake of fights, basically.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:02 pm

Kid Buu wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:42 pm About Goku Vs. Vegeta. Just gonna copy and paste this post that sums up my thoughts.
I definitely understand a lot of that. Cipher is one of my favorite people to debate this stuff with, and he presents his thoughts very, very well. Believe me. I totally get where Vegeta is coming from. I understand his frustration. I sympathize with it. I really do. But let's take that analogy to where it actually ends up. We have a guy who wants a black belt. Everyone else blows past him. The universe seems to be against him. The dojo shuts down. He gets his one chance to make things right, but then this new guy shows up and sucks all the oxygen out of the room, making everything about him. So, yeah, guy jumps up on the table to make himself heard. However, and this is really important, the analogy in this case overly euphemizes the reality. The guy makes himself heard... by returning with a gun and shooting up the dojo. Yes, it sucks that all these bad things happened to this hypothetical martial artist. But my sympathy for him dissipates the second he decides his disappointment justifies murdering innocent people. That is ridiculously petty and evil.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:01 pm

Well I won't deny Vegeta is an asshole who repeaed what he sew, it just seems Goku can be selfish and the narrative favours him. Then again, to play Devil's advocate against myself:

1.) Goku lets go off Raditz tail, and dies in battle later on as a result.
2.) Goku lets Gero build the Androids, and gets his ass kicked by Nineteen.
3.) Goku gives his Senzu Bean to Cell, and gets beaten by a Cell Jr later on.
4.) Goku falls for Majin Vegeta's bluff, and gets suckered punch as a result.

I guess the main difference is that Vegeta keeps being a bitch about it, while Goku simply just moves on. If Trunks goofed around against Cell and Vegeta had to sacrifice himself, he'd probably still be harping on about it in the Buu arc. :lol:
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by Lukmendes » Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:03 pm

Kid Buu wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:01 pm Well I won't deny Vegeta is an asshole who repeaed what he sew, it just seems Goku can be selfish and the narrative favours him. Then again, to play Devil's advocate against myself:

1.) Goku lets go off Raditz tail, and dies in battle later on as a result.
Even that case the narrative favored him, not only was dying part of his plan (Though that happened because he let go of the tail earlier), it allowed him to train in Other World with Kaio, which's what allowed him to learn Kaioken and Spirit Bomb to begin with, not to mention become that much stronger.
2.) Goku lets Gero build the Androids, and gets his ass kicked by Nineteen.
3.) Goku gives his Senzu Bean to Cell, and gets beaten by a Cell Jr later on.
4.) Goku falls for Majin Vegeta's bluff, and gets suckered punch as a result.

I guess the main difference is that Vegeta keeps being a bitch about it, while Goku simply just moves on. If Trunks goofed around against Cell and Vegeta had to sacrifice himself, he'd probably still be harping on about it in the Buu arc. :lol:
The narrative also doesn't tend to give Goku shit for his dumb mistakes, he asks Krillin to spare Vegeta just so he can fight Vegeta again later, Krillin just reacts with "Oh well, you saved our lives", Bulma suggests for them to use the dragon balls to deal with the androids before they become a problem, Goku refuses, everyone else agrees with him, including Krillin finding a half assed excuse to agree with the decision ("Oh it'll keep Vegeta busy").

There are still moments where his dumb actions get called out, most noticeably him throwing a senzu to Cell, which was a collective "wtf Goku!", but in general his dumb stuff is either called out in a more comedic tone, not commented at all, or he's quickly forgiven for it.

I'd also say another difference between both is how whenever Vegeta is selfish, someone immediately gets screwed over, he either knows it's gonna happen, or is the reason the screwing over happens, and he doesn't care, most noticeably, letting Cell become perfect means 18 would need to be absorbed, and he doesn't care, and letting Babidi possess him, he knows that'll risk awakening Majin Boo, and he doesn't care, even kills a bunch of people to goad Goku into fighting.

So yeah, Vegeta's selfish actions tend to have him being actively an asshole about it at least, or a psychopath at worst, while Goku's either have him being naíve, or a complete moron, so it makes some sense why the narrative isn't as brutal towards his mistakes when compared with Vegeta, even if it still pushes it at times.

Also curiously, when he threw a senzu to Cell, Gohan makes no comments about it at all for some reason.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:23 am

Gaffer Tape wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:02 pm I definitely understand a lot of that. Cipher is one of my favorite people to debate this stuff with, and he presents his thoughts very, very well. Believe me. I totally get where Vegeta is coming from. I understand his frustration. I sympathize with it. I really do. But let's take that analogy to where it actually ends up. We have a guy who wants a black belt. Everyone else blows past him. The universe seems to be against him. The dojo shuts down. He gets his one chance to make things right, but then this new guy shows up and sucks all the oxygen out of the room, making everything about him. So, yeah, guy jumps up on the table to make himself heard. However, and this is really important, the analogy in this case overly euphemizes the reality. The guy makes himself heard... by returning with a gun and shooting up the dojo. Yes, it sucks that all these bad things happened to this hypothetical martial artist. But my sympathy for him dissipates the second he decides his disappointment justifies murdering innocent people. That is ridiculously petty and evil.
I should clarify that I think the story justifies Vegeta's actions in and of what we might expect out of his character. I do not think it actually asks us to sympathize with him or believe he's in the right at all. I just buy that the guy's going to do it, and why.

He's a warrior who thinks his kind of last shot at redemption of his own pride, the only thing he's ever wanted to prioritize (so he tells himself), is being run roughshod over. He's also a shitty person for going through with those urges.

Which the story seems to agree with, since it lets us know he's going to literal-actual Hell even when he's attempting to atone. He gets a pass from the dragon at the end in the sense that he's no longer cosmically evil after a more genuine change of perspective, but that's about all we get for him.

(For all the fuss fans had about recent dialogue in Super in which he assumes he's still bound for Hell, my stance is basically ... Uh, mightn't he be?)

Anyway, starker looks into Vegeta's redemption on any real front are all saved for Super (and he's one of the few characters I think is done actively better for its inclusion). The original series ends him in a spot of "You are marginally less shitty than before! Or just as shitty but at least you have friends now," which is the typical Toriyama mode.]

Re: Jokes: I don't think the speech itself is a joke at all (although the interjection of comical panels from Goku and Boo's fight alongside the dramatic dialogue is ... comical), but it's definitely followed by one, which is great?

A moderately unfortunate element of the way the climax is structured I'm surprised you didn't touch on in the video is Vegeta already having been brought back to life (and thus not at risk of permanent erasure) as the Genki Dama goes down, which somewhat reduces the drama of Mr. Satan having to rush in to save him. The moment still works, but you get the feeling Toriyama might have structured it differently had his own lore/rules/foresight afforded it.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:10 am This fighting analysis comes at the right time, considering the DBS manga has been going for half a year with fights for the sake of fights, basically.
I thought the Ultra Ego chapter did an excellent job of blending characterization and action--either the best or tied for best in Super's run--but there have indeed been several where it felt like the spectacle was running on for the sake of it. The climactic fight with Boo is basically the opposite. What action pages are there are still quite good--everything feels large-scale, and fast, and impactful--but the bulk of the fight in a visual sense is pushed off page and into the background in favor of the character beats.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:00 am

I'll get to responding to the posts here later today when I finish work, but I just wanted to apologize to Cipher really quickly here. Didn't mean to drag you into this debate, it was just a post I remembered that I felt I really agreed with hence I posted it.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by zDBZ » Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:54 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:41 pm Edit: ^Ah, if this came off as a snarky rebuttal to the above post, I didn't intend to :P
No worries, it wasn't taken as such.

And when I saw the climax of the Buu saga as a kid, I enjoyed it. It felt like a grand finale. It just didn't hold up the more I thought about it.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 2/28/22!)

Post by nhienphan2808 » Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:41 am

Kid Buu wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:01 pm Well I won't deny Vegeta is an asshole who repeaed what he sew, it just seems Goku can be selfish and the narrative favours him. Then again, to play Devil's advocate against myself:

1.) Goku lets go off Raditz tail, and dies in battle later on as a result.
2.) Goku lets Gero build the Androids, and gets his ass kicked by Nineteen.
3.) Goku gives his Senzu Bean to Cell, and gets beaten by a Cell Jr later on.
4.) Goku falls for Majin Vegeta's bluff, and gets suckered punch as a result.

I guess the main difference is that Vegeta keeps being a bitch about it, while Goku simply just moves on. If Trunks goofed around against Cell and Vegeta had to sacrifice himself, he'd probably still be harping on about it in the Buu arc. :lol:
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/14/20!)

Post by Noah » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:07 am

It has been a while since my last post in this thread, It took some time to catch up, but now I can now share comments on how the series currently is:

Current Majin Boo arc dissection:

- I don't even know why Toriyama did that Bibidi retcon, it doesn't add anything to the story just complicate the things a little bit.

- You know I read somewhere in this forum that MistareFusion had a pissy rant about Majin Vegeta and for that reason I was quite excited to get to that part and actually what I saw was a good analysis why Vegeta's actions cannot be justfied? Yeah people tend to overblow stuff lol

- What I love about these series is that you often suggests better alternatives the story could take to improve its narrative, Vegeta not really wanting to kill innocents to convince Goku, but Babidi's magic making his will through his impulses would be way better and also Goku fighting with strategy avoiding getting damaged.

- Funny how I never thought this arc was full of bullsh*t: the time to master the Fusion Dance that in two movies took less than one week, inconsistency regarding DB wishes, the Radar "Special Parts", everyone assuming Gohan to be dead and etc.

- I wish you elaborated a little bit more reasons in-Universe why Goku didn't use SSJ3 vs. Vegeta, but I guess there isn't much to talk about it.

- The dynamic between Satan and Fat Boo were one of the best of this arc overrall and pretty much made me appreciate a lot his character.

- Really liked your vision about why Pure Boo showed up instead of Grey Boo without Fat Boo.

- You know seeing you elaborate the whole reason Vegetto exists is because of Gogeta, I wonder if is that also a reason why Kaioshin exists while we had Grand Kaio that could pretty much serve the same role.

- Your idea that the Boo arc could conclude Vegeta arc the same way in Movie 12 where he vanishes in the end it would be really rad.

Movie 10:
- Funny thing about this movie is that I still have a copy on VHS that my aunt bought to me when I was 10, I remember to still be fond of it though I despise Broly characterization on it.

Movie 12:
- I remember when I mentioned somewhere (probably this thread) that although Movie 6 introduced Goku and Vegeta as a duo, Movie 12 is where they are on their best character speaking, too bad after that they together became something oversatured due Super.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/14/20!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:23 pm

Noah wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:07 am - I wish you elaborated a little bit more reasons in-Universe why Goku didn't use SSJ3 vs. Vegeta, but I guess there isn't much to talk about it.
I like to assume that it had something to do with Goku being in the afterlife. We know from this arc that performing SS3 with a living body is significantly more taxing than it is for someone who is dead, so it stands to reason that the same would hold true when it comes to attaining the form in the first place.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/14/20!)

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:39 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:23 pm I like to assume that it had something to do with Goku being in the afterlife. We know from this arc that performing SS3 with a living body is significantly more taxing than it is for someone who is dead, so it stands to reason that the same would hold true when it comes to attaining the form in the first place.
The problem is that Goku made it clear that he didn't want Boo to be awakened, and he was going all out, and he went SS2 against Vegeta, then when Vegeta goes SS2 as well, Goku looks surprised and a bit annoyed at it, which gives the impression Goku wasn't interested in a fair fair and was willing to overwhelm Vegeta, then he uses SS3 against Boo just to distract him for a minute?

His excuse later on is that he was saving it just in case, but that's stupid because Vegeta becoming possessed was the worst possible situation at the moment, so he really shouldn't have held back, that situation just can't work with in-universe logic.

As for Vegeta's stuff, honestly, DB is a world where characters easily forgive each other, Piccolo and Vegeta are the standout examples, since Piccolo killed Krillin and Chiaotzu, overthrew the government, was planning to kill everyone on the planet, almost killed Tien and Goku, tried to kill Goku again in 23rd tournament, kidnapped Gohan, abandoned him in the middle of nowhere, forced him to train, forced him to fight, and nobody holds it against Piccolo for doing all of those horrible things, Gohan himself keeps saying that Piccolo isn't that bad, when Piccolo was nothing but an abusive, violent asshole as far as we've seen before he sacrifices himself.

After the sacrifice, Piccolo melows out and is actually helpful, and after a while, Tien even basically says "Oh yeah, Piccolo was evil", completely forgetting somehow that Piccolo almost killed him, and had killed Chiaotzu.

Of course, Vegeta was worse than Piccolo and was the groups evil member for the longest, and mostly only got in the way in Cell and Boo sagas, but again, DB is a world where characters get easily forgiven by the main characters if the character actually mean it, so, I don't see why it's so problematic for Vegeta to get forgiven when the writing itself is dumb enough to have that as a pattern, it's a dumb world working under dumb values, doing thing Goku's way is usually the best possible outcome, even if common sense says "That should get all of them killed but the plot armor is too strong", so yeah, as dumb as it is for a genocider like Vegeta to get forgiven, uh, that's how that world works, and fact they have someone like Beerus hanging around now, who tried to kill the planet for the dumbest reasons and might still be an active genocider... Yeah, again, dumb world lol.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/14/20!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:58 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:39 pmThe problem is that Goku made it clear that he didn't want Boo to be awakened, and he was going all out, and he went SS2 against Vegeta, then when Vegeta goes SS2 as well, Goku looks surprised and a bit annoyed at it, which gives the impression Goku wasn't interested in a fair fair and was willing to overwhelm Vegeta, then he uses SS3 against Boo just to distract him for a minute?

His excuse later on is that he was saving it just in case, but that's stupid because Vegeta becoming possessed was the worst possible situation at the moment, so he really shouldn't have held back, that situation just can't work with in-universe logic.
Turns out I completely misread what Noah was talking about. I thought they were asking why Vegeta never went Super Saiyan 3. No idea how I misread it that badly, but I guess I am a Dragon Ball fan.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/14/20!)

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:43 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:58 pm Turns out I completely misread what Noah was talking about. I thought they were asking why Vegeta never went Super Saiyan 3. No idea how I misread it that badly, but I guess I am a Dragon Ball fan.
Hey, reading is hard, just recently someone made a thread here asking what people think of Ultra Ego now, and I somehow misread that as "Ultra Instinct" and made a comment talking about UI there :lol:.

Either way, Goku initially talks about SS3 like it's something that can only be done in afterlife, or at least, he only really manages to do it there ("I can only use Super Saiyan 3 in Other World, here in this world, where you have time, it uses up too much energy", this is from a fansub, Viz's translation on the other hand, has Goku talking like SS3 can only be used in the afterlife in general), but then Gotenks can do it too and he drops that point, only saying it took him years to manage to use SS3, I think by that point it indicates a living person can reach SS3 naturally, but it'd be much harder, and would naturally be far harder for a non fusion to do it, since fusion characters get the talents of both people involved.

So yeah, someone as naturally talented as Goku admits it took him years to get SS3, and I think you're right about it being easier to get in the afterlife, and Vegeta, who's less talented, and alive... Yeah, he would take far longer, specially considering he wasn't even aware that going beyond SS2 is a possibility.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/28/22!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:19 am

Dragon Ball's Two Endings - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 28!

We finally, finally, finally reach the final chapters of the original series. There's a time skip, wherein all the characters are re-introduced and have no role in the story. Goku runs off with a random kid, but then he does it in a slightly different way. Talking about the two endings was actually something I've been looking forward to for a long time, so I hope you enjoy it!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/28/22!)

Post by jcogginsa » Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:00 pm

I'm surprised you didn't mention the other puns In Pan's name, but this is a busy episode so it makes sense.

I never knew that there were two endings to the Manga, that's wild.

As for the Tournament, you make a very good point.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/28/22!)

Post by coola » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:49 pm

When you look at Super episode 1, Vegeta was actually right about Buu, and how Mr. Satan won't be able to control him (And yes, i know it was done for "comedy" like lots of flanderization, but still). I didn't know that stupid Vegeta OOC speech replaced that heartwarming goodbye message. Sorry for offtopic, but i love how all those "perfect editions" not only add, but also remove stuff from original releases, like author comments between chapters in Fruits Basket and Sailor Moon :(
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/28/22!)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:34 pm

I thought the original ending was the one with Vegeta's panel. I guess my collection does have the original ending after all.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/28/22!)

Post by Noah » Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:53 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:19 am Dragon Ball's Two Endings - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 28!

We finally, finally, finally reach the final chapters of the original series. There's a time skip, wherein all the characters are re-introduced and have no role in the story. Goku runs off with a random kid, but then he does it in a slightly different way. Talking about the two endings was actually something I've been looking forward to for a long time, so I hope you enjoy it!

- Loved how you addresed Vegeta demeanor changes regarding Saiyan honor and other bullsh**s that came after the Freeza arc

- I always though the wish was just to wipe the earthlings memories about Boo's appearance, not what he was and what he did to the world

- Loved the sarcasm by the part "nothing of any anote has happened" :lol:

- Interesting to address major changes made by the Kanzenban edition, I share the same opinion as you, in fact I always had in mind that Vegeta said that smiling, mainly because I had this scene (from DBZ Episode #288) in my mind. Years after I saw that I was wrong, because this damn panel justifies why he did not move on in DBS :yawn:
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