MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:20 pm

zarmack wrote: He's the reason Gohan & Krillin survived the Namek arc, the reason Gohan beat Cell and the reason Goku beat Buu (the Spirit Bomb plan was his idea). Then there's the movies were his contributions matter more than everyone else's except Goku (6, 8 and 12). So to claim he isn't useful to the team is objectively false.
I should have specified "Cell (and Buu) arc Vegeta is worse than useless". He was useful on Namek and in the movies (I'm mostly familiar with the manga so I don't tend to think of the films when discussing DB).

Sure, his intervention againt Cell and Buu helped, but without him Cell never becomes perfect--whoever went in the room first kills him in his second form. Without him Buu never wakes up--either Gohan gets angry and defeats Dabura or Goku does it, and then they kill Babidi.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by zarmack » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:34 pm

Gray Riders wrote:
zarmack wrote: He's the reason Gohan & Krillin survived the Namek arc, the reason Gohan beat Cell and the reason Goku beat Buu (the Spirit Bomb plan was his idea). Then there's the movies were his contributions matter more than everyone else's except Goku (6, 8 and 12). So to claim he isn't useful to the team is objectively false.
I should have specified "Cell (and Buu) arc Vegeta is worse than useless". He was useful on Namek and in the movies (I'm mostly familiar with the manga so I don't tend to think of the films when discussing DB).

Sure, his intervention againt Cell and Buu helped, but without him Cell never becomes perfect--whoever went in the room first kills him in his second form. Without him Buu never wakes up--either Gohan gets angry and defeats Dabura or Goku does it, and then they kill Babidi.
Cell becoming Perfect was also Krillin's & Piccolo's fault: Krillin for not pushing the button on A18, and Piccolo for choosing to fight A17 (which alerted Cell their location, allowing him to find the Android twins) instead of having Krillin or Tien make and Solar Flare run away until any of the Saiyans come out of the ROSAT.

Buu's revival was also Shin & Goku's fault: Shin unnecessary and stupid plan to let Yamu & Spopovich steal Gohan's energy (which filled up half of Buu's tank), and Goku for not just pulling out SSJ3 and stomping Majin Vegeta (also for not Fat Buu right away).

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:54 pm

Do you think Goku would have allowed Cell to become complete?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:56 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:It's always annoyed the shit out me me how the cast just conveniently forget that Vegeta is despicable piece of shit that shouldn't be trusted and Vegeta just integrates with the cast as if he's become one of them. There's no repercussion for his actions, no fallout for what he's responsible for in an indirect manner, nothing at all. In fact, he gets rewarded. He hooks up with the most resourceful woman the planet, both financially and in terms of training based facilities, and never has to work a single day in his life.

And oh boy... does this shit get even worse in the Majin Boo arc. He murders hundreds upon hundreds of people just because he could, willingly plays the role of being the catalyst to the resurrection of an ancient djinn who would latter go on to kill billions of people and destroy the earth, but because he does one genuinely selfless act he gets the same treatment as Goku, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo and Chiaotzu and gets to keep his body afterlife. Despite the fact that Piccolo, who has God himself inside of him mind you, flat out tells him he's going to Hell.

The worst thing guys like Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo and Chiaotzu was that they beat people up in confrontations, and in Chiaotzu's case, all he ever did as misdemeanor was cheat in combat. They weren't saints, but their redemption at least had some plausibility to it given that unlike Vegeta they weren't shown to be callous, remorseless murderers with total apathy towards the lives around him.
While I agree with the broad strokes of your post, that Vegeta was allowed to keep his body after death had more to do with pragmatism than any brownie points he might've earned with his sacrifice. Enma thought it prudent to keep him in tact just in case the situation with Majin Boo on Earth went FUBAR... which is exactly what happened.
But a whole day had passed since Vegeta bit the dust against Majin Boo, so it was really more like special treatment for Enma to give Vegeta a body which Vegeta didn't fucking earn, as supposed to Vegeta going through the same soul reincarnation and memory wiping phase that every other deceased person going to Hell gets.

Unless Enma knew what was going to happen, or knew Potara existed, both are scenario which are unfounded, it makes no sense to him to give Vegeta a body. Especially since Vegeta had already been proven to be no match against Majin Boo. So sending Vegeta back into the fight with a body despite being deceased was actually a very dumb thing to do considering if Vegeta died again he would cease to exist.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by zarmack » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:59 pm

Kid Buu wrote:Do you think Goku would have allowed Cell to become complete?
Well he did allow Freeza to reach 100% of his power instead of just killing him off as soon as he went SSJ1, so maybe he'd let Cell become Perfect too. Plus unlike with Freeza, there's no way for Goku estimate exactly how strong Cell would get after absorbing A18.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by zDBZ » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:30 am

Because I saw the anime first, and because I can't recall anything in the manga that would make the anime's solution (a year in space) impossible, I can ease any unsettled state of minds by imagining that that's what happened off-page :D

Leaving that aside...if you accept the logic that Vegeta is crashing on Earth until he has a chance for a rematch with Goku, then I think you could also argue that the others tolerate his presence because...what choice would they have? Without Goku, I don't think they'd be able to destroy or expel him, but Vegeta isn't exactly someone you'd want free among the general populace either. Better to give him room and board where some of the gang are, where they can keep an eye on him.

Is that a stretch? Oh, most certainly. And that clearly isn't Bulma's logic when she offers him a place at Capsule Corp. But I don't think it's a wholly unwarranted stretch.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by BWri » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:08 am

zDBZ wrote:Because I saw the anime first, and because I can't recall anything in the manga that would make the anime's solution (a year in space) impossible, I can ease any unsettled state of minds by imagining that that's what happened off-page :D

Leaving that aside...if you accept the logic that Vegeta is crashing on Earth until he has a chance for a rematch with Goku, then I think you could also argue that the others tolerate his presence because...what choice would they have? Without Goku, I don't think they'd be able to destroy or expel him, but Vegeta isn't exactly someone you'd want free among the general populace either. Better to give him room and board where some of the gang are, where they can keep an eye on him.

Is that a stretch? Oh, most certainly. And that clearly isn't Bulma's logic when she offers him a place at Capsule Corp. But I don't think it's a wholly unwarranted stretch.
Thats an interesting thought. Maybe Bulma is more of a pragmatic genius than we all gave her credit for. By offering Vegeta a place to stay and seducing him, she singlehandedly secured Earth's second most powerful protector and future protectors for generations to come :lol: :clap: :think: . Okay, not really, but that would be an improvement over her being someone who gets her kinks from the thought of being with an unrepentant mass murderer.

Loved the video by the way. It explained perfectly my long time dislike of Vegeta. He's more or less grown on me since the Buu saga but this stuff still prevents him from being even close to my favorites list.

Another thought. Do you think Vegeta's death on Namek was Toriyama's way of absolving Vegeta of his old sins and resetting him, so to speak? Death changes people and Vegeta was markedly different after his first death. It doesn't absolve him, but do you think it was meant to?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by zarmack » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:19 am

BWri wrote:
zDBZ wrote:Because I saw the anime first, and because I can't recall anything in the manga that would make the anime's solution (a year in space) impossible, I can ease any unsettled state of minds by imagining that that's what happened off-page :D

Leaving that aside...if you accept the logic that Vegeta is crashing on Earth until he has a chance for a rematch with Goku, then I think you could also argue that the others tolerate his presence because...what choice would they have? Without Goku, I don't think they'd be able to destroy or expel him, but Vegeta isn't exactly someone you'd want free among the general populace either. Better to give him room and board where some of the gang are, where they can keep an eye on him.

Is that a stretch? Oh, most certainly. And that clearly isn't Bulma's logic when she offers him a place at Capsule Corp. But I don't think it's a wholly unwarranted stretch.
Thats an interesting thought. Maybe Bulma is more of a pragmatic genius than we all gave her credit for. By offering Vegeta a place to stay and seducing him, she singlehandedly secured Earth's second most powerful protector and future protectors for generations to come :lol: :clap: :think: . Okay, not really, but that would be an improvement over her being someone who gets her kinks from the thought of being with an unrepentant mass murderer.

Loved the video by the way. It explained perfectly my long time dislike of Vegeta. He's more or less grown on me since the Buu saga but this stuff still prevents him from being even close to my favorites list.

Another thought. Do you think Vegeta's death on Namek was Toriyama's way of absolving Vegeta of his old sins and resetting him, so to speak? Death changes people and Vegeta was markedly different after his first death. It doesn't absolve him, but do you think it was meant to?
Bulma has expressed attraction to bad boys in the past: Yamcha (when he was a bandit), General Blue (despite being gay), Zarbon, etc. So her hooking up with Vegeta isn't out-of-character nor all that random at all.

Also, Toriyama has never came across to me (and many others) as a moralistic writer. After all, Dragonball is a series that features a protagonist (Goku) who makes selfish, dangerous decisions mainly for the thrill of battle and only gets away with it through pure luck (Toriyama himself even commented on this in that interview from 1997 about Goku not being an idealistic hero).

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by BWri » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:53 am

zarmack wrote: Bulma has expressed attraction to bad boys in the past: Yamcha (when he was a bandit), General Blue (despite being gay), Zarbon, etc. So her hooking up with Vegeta isn't out-of-character nor all that random at all.
I hear what you're saying but there are several degrees of difference between what you're describing and what Vegeta was at the time. Vegeta was a sadistic mass murderer and Bulma had just heard about the stuff he did, murdering innocent Namekians and children. Even if Yamcha managed to murder someone in his bandit days, its doubtful that its the level of out and out slaughter as what we saw from Vegeta. This quickfix band-aid by Toriyama didnt do Bulma any favors in terms of characterization and its great to hear MistareFusion point that out.
Also, Toriyama has never came across to me (and many others) as a moralistic writer. After all, Dragonball is a series that features a protagonist (Goku) who makes selfish, dangerous decisions mainly for the thrill of battle and only gets away with it through pure luck (Toriyama himself even commented on this in that interview from 1997 about Goku not being an idealistic hero).
That's one of the things I really like about Dragon Ball. Still, despite his heroes having shifty morals, Toriyama likes to clearly define evil in his story and he shows the depths of evil in actions such as King Piccolo ordering the deaths of the martial artists, Frieza killing Dende, Buu commiting genocide and Vegeta slaughtering a village of Namekians. The payoff to this is seeing evil get its comeuppance at some point in the story, typically through death or at least a really bad beatdown in Tao's case. Vegeta never got his comeuppance for killing those innocent Namekians, who are still dead to this day. Children included. This puts him several steps more in the evil category than any of our other protagonists. And he never had to answer for it. Sure, Frieza killed him, and maybe that and his pleading to Goku was enough for many in the audience to forgive him, but many of us still remember those poor Namekians and the justice they never received ... okay, I'm being a tad overdramatic, but the point is he never answered for his crimes and so his redemption and rewards feel unearned compared to the rest.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:11 am

Yeah, there's a clear difference between a bad boy, and a serial killer. And a clear difference between a serial killer and Vegeta.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:13 am

Though there's the matter of him not exactly answering for his, erm, past transgressions, I feel like Vegeta's shift from bad guy to anti-Hero to (relatively) good guy is a lot more smooth in comparison to a lot of other villains with similar character arcs. It's more of a case-by-case basis but I sometimes feel like certain Heel Face Turns are a tad too... abrupt. Not all of them are deal-breakers but some of them seem to eager to get to the redemption and are less concerned about the arc.

Vegeta's seems more like Toriyama used him as an Anti-Villain and later Anti-Hero that makes things worse before gaining some scruples when Gohan faces off with Cell. By that point after Trunks bites it, it actually feels earned. More so in the Anime when he sees the others trying in vain to throw off Cell to give Gohan the edge and succeeds where they failed. With the Buu Saga, it's oddly solidified after he finds himself yearned to regain that edge he had lost oddly enough.

Again, he's no Prince Zuko who had to work harder to gain the trust of Team Avatar among others after sticking it to his pops at long last. However, this transition feels a lot more... organic for lack of a better term.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:25 am

when it comes to Cell's abilites, I always put it down to the fact that he's not just a "Copy-Paste Clone". He's an organic robot built using the genetics of 3 alien races as a base and he was likely designed with improved variants of there abilities.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:46 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:But a whole day had passed since Vegeta bit the dust against Majin Boo, so it was really more like special treatment for Enma to give Vegeta a body which Vegeta didn't fucking earn, as supposed to Vegeta going through the same soul reincarnation and memory wiping phase that every other deceased person going to Hell gets.

Unless Enma knew what was going to happen, or knew Potara existed, both are scenario which are unfounded, it makes no sense to him to give Vegeta a body. Especially since Vegeta had already been proven to be no match against Majin Boo. So sending Vegeta back into the fight with a body despite being deceased was actually a very dumb thing to do considering if Vegeta died again he would cease to exist.
I don't know what to tell you. I'm just repeating what Enma himself said: That he kept Vegeta's body and soul around as a last resort. Sending him to Earth was a last-ditch effort that nobody thought would actually work, but Enma also knows that Saiyans have a knack pulling off the impossible when things seem hopeless.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Tavarano » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:23 pm

Gyūmaō was implied to be a mass murderer and was about to kill Bulma and Oolong before Goku came back, Bulma tried to shoot a kid she just met, Yamcha had a paunzerfaust and a machine gun, Oolong also bullied Puar in school as far as his bad actions go. Immoral actions being normalized is a "running joke" of Toriyama's stories, and it's not an accident, he admitted to doing it on purpose. Frieza's next.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:08 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:But a whole day had passed since Vegeta bit the dust against Majin Boo, so it was really more like special treatment for Enma to give Vegeta a body which Vegeta didn't fucking earn, as supposed to Vegeta going through the same soul reincarnation and memory wiping phase that every other deceased person going to Hell gets.

Unless Enma knew what was going to happen, or knew Potara existed, both are scenario which are unfounded, it makes no sense to him to give Vegeta a body. Especially since Vegeta had already been proven to be no match against Majin Boo. So sending Vegeta back into the fight with a body despite being deceased was actually a very dumb thing to do considering if Vegeta died again he would cease to exist.
I don't know what to tell you. I'm just repeating what Enma himself said: That he kept Vegeta's body and soul around as a last resort. Sending him to Earth was a last-ditch effort that nobody thought would actually work, but Enma also knows that Saiyans have a knack pulling off the impossible when things seem hopeless.
And my response to that is: That is a stupid idea. Given that Vegeta had already fought Majin Boo at his strongest and lost horribly. It's a fucking terrible back-up plan to have the guy who lost horribly against Majin Boo, serves at the last resort to fight against Majin Boo. The only way you can handwave this is if Enma knew about the existence of the Potara. And even then, it's a huge stretch given how much good fortune and luck bail out the heroes and villains in the Majin Boo arc.

Let's be real: The only reason Vegeta was given a body and kept alive was pure plot convenience. Which, in my opinion, is fucking terrible writing.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:41 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Let's be real: The only reason Vegeta was given a body and kept alive was pure plot convenience. Which, in my opinion, is fucking terrible writing.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:48 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:And my response to that is: That is a stupid idea. Given that Vegeta had already fought Majin Boo at his strongest and lost horribly. It's a fucking terrible back-up plan to have the guy who lost horribly against Majin Boo, serves at the last resort to fight against Majin Boo. The only way you can handwave this is if Enma knew about the existence of the Potara. And even then, it's a huge stretch given how much good fortune and luck bail out the heroes and villains in the Majin Boo arc.
Vegeta fought against Boo on his own, and lost. Strength in numbers, maybe? As Vegeta and Goku muse earlier in the arc, they're basically the strongest beings in existence now. Why would you not keep as many of those dudes around as you can while shit's hitting the fan?
Lord Beerus wrote:[insert literally anything here] was pure plot convenience. Which, in my opinion, is fucking terrible writing.
I've noticed over the years how these terms have come to act as shorthand for actual grievances and substantive criticism (much like "asspull", "plot induced stupidity", and their ilk). Which is fine. But this fandom has a bad habit with dialing in on these substitutes to the point where I don't even know what actual criticism they're supposed to stand in for anymore.

What does "pure plot convenience" mean, how is this an example of it, and why is that bad?

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by lancerman » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:21 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:But a whole day had passed since Vegeta bit the dust against Majin Boo, so it was really more like special treatment for Enma to give Vegeta a body which Vegeta didn't fucking earn, as supposed to Vegeta going through the same soul reincarnation and memory wiping phase that every other deceased person going to Hell gets.

Unless Enma knew what was going to happen, or knew Potara existed, both are scenario which are unfounded, it makes no sense to him to give Vegeta a body. Especially since Vegeta had already been proven to be no match against Majin Boo. So sending Vegeta back into the fight with a body despite being deceased was actually a very dumb thing to do considering if Vegeta died again he would cease to exist.
I don't know what to tell you. I'm just repeating what Enma himself said: That he kept Vegeta's body and soul around as a last resort. Sending him to Earth was a last-ditch effort that nobody thought would actually work, but Enma also knows that Saiyans have a knack pulling off the impossible when things seem hopeless.
And my response to that is: That is a stupid idea. Given that Vegeta had already fought Majin Boo at his strongest and lost horribly. It's a fucking terrible back-up plan to have the guy who lost horribly against Majin Boo, serves at the last resort to fight against Majin Boo. The only way you can handwave this is if Enma knew about the existence of the Potara. And even then, it's a huge stretch given how much good fortune and luck bail out the heroes and villains in the Majin Boo arc.

Let's be real: The only reason Vegeta was given a body and kept alive was pure plot convenience. Which, in my opinion, is fucking terrible writing.

Vegeta was the strongest fighter Enma could use to face Boo. Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo were absorbed. Goku was alive on Earth.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:54 am

Well, Enma would have made the decision to keep Vegeta's body well before they were all absorbed. And since Vegeta saw Super Saiyan 3, we know that he wasn't given his body back at the last second there after shit started getting real.

But, honestly, yeah, it is very convenient that Vegeta kept his body. I really don't think that's "fucking terrible writing". Much like a lot of decisions that people take issue with in the original work, I think it's rather clever, given the writing process. It's incredibly convenient, but it actually works pretty damned well. I certainly remember going "oh fuck yeah" when it was revealed.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:25 am

I think it’s best summed up as the big weakness of Toriyama’s writing style.

His “make it up as you go” method works well with narratives that do not rely to much on passed plot eliments and have a simple (not stupid) structure. His style starts to develop problems when the stories start to be too canon heavey or have to many moving parts.

For example I agree that the Red Ribbon Army Arc is one of the best stories in the franchise and it fits the trends. It’s an entirely new adventure the doesn’t rely on much that came befor it and it’s mainly driven by Goku’s actions. The Android arc is the exact opposite, as it’s bogged down by left over plot elements that it now has to keep developing, like Vegeta, and has far too many moving parts for a fast and loose writing style.
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