MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:34 am

Lord Frieza wrote:I think it’s best summed up as the big weakness of Toriyama’s writing style.
I'd call it more of a double edged sword than an outright weakness.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:33 am

Zephyr wrote:Vegeta fought against Boo on his own, and lost. Strength in numbers, maybe? As Vegeta and Goku muse earlier in the arc, they're basically the strongest beings in existence now. Why would you not keep as many of those dudes around as you can while shit's hitting the fan?
The strength in numbers wouldn't really matter that much considering, with the information we had at the time, Goku and Vegeta didn't have the strength to beat Majin Boo.
Zephyr wrote:I've noticed over the years how these terms have come to act as shorthand for actual grievances and substantive criticism (much like "asspull", "plot induced stupidity", and their ilk). Which is fine. But this fandom has a bad habit with dialing in on these substitutes to the point where I don't even know what actual criticism they're supposed to stand in for anymore.

What does "pure plot convenience" mean, how is this an example of it, and why is that bad?
I just felt that the whole reveal of Vegeta being kept alive in the afterlife felt like such an inorganic progression of the storytelling that clashed quite badly with the thematic direction the narrative previously wanted to take.

Vegeta's sacrifice and death wasn't played up a moment where he would get a second chance, but he's still given the same discretion upon his death -- with have the special prevalent of keeping his body in the afterlife -- despite the fact he callously murders hundreds upon hundreds of people and outright told he would not get the same privilege that Goku got when he died because he had lived too much of sinful life.

And it's ultimately action that has the justification of a scenario occurring through nothing but happenstance and where the outcome of any potential battle between Vegeta and Majin Boo had been give a sold and straight answer.

I mean, why couldn't have Enma done the same thing for Gohan, Goten and Trunk when they bit the dust against Majin Boo and Goku and Vegeta were the ones up shit creak against Majin Boo on Kaioshin's planet?

Stuff like that has always just rubbed me up the wrong way.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:The strength in numbers wouldn't really matter that much considering, with the information we had at the time, Goku and Vegeta didn't have the strength to beat Majin Boo.
At the time of Vegeta's death, Boo had only been fought in 1 on 1 settings, so the information necessary to conclude that teamwork would do nothing had yet to exist. Just because a fight has a foregone conclusion, it doesn't mean that you should just not fight it. That implies that there's something to lose by not doing so.

Characters in stories are allowed to not be maximally rational and stoic about everything.
Lord Beerus wrote:I just felt that the whole reveal of Vegeta being kept alive in the afterlife felt like such an inorganic progression of the storytelling that clashed quite badly with the thematic direction the narrative previously wanted to take.
What thematic direction? Vegeta keeping his body is never presented as something that he earned, it is not a privilege. It's presented as something practical done by Enma. So I don't see the thematic clashing you're talking about. The only thematic clashing I could see would be Vegeta not keeping his body after dying against Boo, but later being brought back to life along with the good people. I'm still fine with it, as Shenlong may recognize that Vegeta's character is such that he won't be evil in life anymore, while he'll still never be able to repent for his past crimes, and will still be reincarnated after his even-now-good life, but I understand it still not gelling with someone.

I don't see how it's inorganic. I though it was plenty organic.

As for the half breeds: When Vegeta is killed, the body count arriving from Earth is relatively small. By the time Gohan and the rest are killed, the body count is.....the rest of the planet's population. Vegeta definitely would have been "judged" to be worth keeping a body just in case, relative to his time of death, way sooner than Gohan, Goten, and Trunks would have. Besides, they're good, so they would have been given bodies anyway. They were revived before long anyway as well.

---

But this is all getting off topic, because Dragon Ball Dissection isn't even close to this part of the story yet! :P

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by lancerman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:27 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Vegeta fought against Boo on his own, and lost. Strength in numbers, maybe? As Vegeta and Goku muse earlier in the arc, they're basically the strongest beings in existence now. Why would you not keep as many of those dudes around as you can while shit's hitting the fan?
The strength in numbers wouldn't really matter that much considering, with the information we had at the time, Goku and Vegeta didn't have the strength to beat Majin Boo.
Zephyr wrote:I've noticed over the years how these terms have come to act as shorthand for actual grievances and substantive criticism (much like "asspull", "plot induced stupidity", and their ilk). Which is fine. But this fandom has a bad habit with dialing in on these substitutes to the point where I don't even know what actual criticism they're supposed to stand in for anymore.

What does "pure plot convenience" mean, how is this an example of it, and why is that bad?
I just felt that the whole reveal of Vegeta being kept alive in the afterlife felt like such an inorganic progression of the storytelling that clashed quite badly with the thematic direction the narrative previously wanted to take.

Vegeta's sacrifice and death wasn't played up a moment where he would get a second chance, but he's still given the same discretion upon his death -- with have the special prevalent of keeping his body in the afterlife -- despite the fact he callously murders hundreds upon hundreds of people and outright told he would not get the same privilege that Goku got when he died because he had lived too much of sinful life.

And it's ultimately action that has the justification of a scenario occurring through nothing but happenstance and where the outcome of any potential battle between Vegeta and Majin Boo had been give a sold and straight answer.

I mean, why couldn't have Enma done the same thing for Gohan, Goten and Trunk when they bit the dust against Majin Boo and Goku and Vegeta were the ones up shit creak against Majin Boo on Kaioshin's planet?

Stuff like that has always just rubbed me up the wrong way.
Gohan, Goten and Trunks were not dead until Boo blew up the planet. Goku, then Vegeta, then Goku again fought Boo and then they were all wished back. They weren't dead all that long and considering it took about a week before Vegeta returned, I doubt that time made a difference. And once they were back, Goku and Vegeta didn't want them there

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/18!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:35 pm

lancerman wrote:
Gohan, Goten and Trunks were not dead until Boo blew up the planet. Goku, then Vegeta, then Goku again fought Boo and then they were all wished back. They weren't dead all that long and considering it took about a week before Vegeta returned, I doubt that time made a difference. And once they were back, Goku and Vegeta didn't want them there
In addition, by the time they died, the fight had moved to the Kaioshin realm, a place that Uranai Baba and Enma didn't have access to

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:01 am

A Trunks Double Feature - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Trunks Specials

Dragon Ball Dissection December concludes with a double look at Trunks's hellish past, which is also the future. Toriyama had his go in the manga, and six months later Toei adapted it into the TV series. What's the difference? And which is better?

Well, if you've seen my Dragon Ball Minus video, you probably already know. Thanks for sticking with me this year. I appreciate all the banter and fun. I hope you all enjoy.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by coola » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:36 am

After Dragon Ball Minus it is yet another example where anime special is much better than manga version :) Only thing i dont like in Trunks Special, and in Bardock Special, were very poorly placed eyecatches, you have eerie/serious scene, then bam! Happy music, talk about mood whiplash...

Its been almost 10 years, time flies :) I really enjoy your videos, they are always very well done and well researched, happy new year to everyone :)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:29 pm

Coola it will be seven years this January, don't scare us like that!

But how many years ago was it you said "You know, no, I think I've got another one in me." and for at least that long you made it the standard. 17 minutes on Android 13, and probably one of them spent on things you actually liked. You spoil us Lance.

So tell me if I didn't scroll far enough down the comments or something fired on Twitter, but it sounds like the negative response you were so certain of in reminding us that we may have let hindsight and handcannoning blur the truth about Vegeta's being an unreformed murderer didn't come to pass? I do not envy the bind Toriyama put himself into with the man, as we've seen it is a dance that is a bit too much him. He's far too established evil to get too overtly chummy with the group or be played too much for comedy, but his story is mined, leaving him nowhere to go, and without a penchant for mountain sabbaticals (Toei's seeing this and replacing "mountain" with "space" was a good choice), and he is oh so good at stoking conflict. The Trunks Special was the right kind of shock the first time for the way it deliberately takes power away from the good guys, something Toriyama almost never got to do because the hope of a turnaround keeps more interest week-to-week. 17's bluffing Gohan knowing he has no out and watching Trunks hide and flail from the two like he is any old person is hard to watch in a way other Dragon Ball battles aren't.
JacobYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by nato25 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:25 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:A Trunks Double Feature - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Trunks Specials

Dragon Ball Dissection December concludes with a double look at Trunks's hellish past, which is also the future. Toriyama had his go in the manga, and six months later Toei adapted it into the TV series. What's the difference? And which is better?

Well, if you've seen my Dragon Ball Minus video, you probably already know. Thanks for sticking with me this year. I appreciate all the banter and fun. I hope you all enjoy.
I started following this year. Awesome video's man and I love how you have very unique opinions on parts of the series. The one thing I disagreed with was your berating of 18's shopping scene. 'Women be shopping' is an obvious joke sure but I think it works for 18. She is shown to be very materialistic and all about herself and those very close to her (which is why I didn't mind that what about your cruiser line from the ToP arc). Shopping is literally the most materialistic thing a person can do so I think it works for her character. It's also a world where you're on top and no one can stop you, might as well keep entertained somehow.

Now if Videl was just in a random shopping scene like that I would probably take issue.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:40 am

nato25 wrote:The one thing I disagreed with was your berating of 18's shopping scene.
I'm so glad you're enjoying them! As for that, I would not call that berating since I wasn't even actually criticizing it at all. It was a hypocritical joke at my own expense.
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Coola it will be seven years this January, don't scare us like that!
No, I did indeed say 10 years in my Trunks video yesterday. It will be 7 years later this month that I began Dragon Ball Dissection, but coola and I are referring to the amount of time I've been reviewing on my channel. That will be 10 years this April.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:18 pm

Does Vegeta ever actually let a foe transform besides Freeza and Cell? I don't recall him doing that in the Buu arc, but I haven't seen all of Super.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:23 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
nato25 wrote:I did say 10 years in my Trunks video yesterday. It will be 7 years later this month that I began Dragon Ball Dissection, but coola and I are referring to the amount of time I've been reviewing on my channel. That will be 10 years this April.
Silly me, I forgot how far back your prior content goes.
JacobYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
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Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
Canada

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by nato25 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:41 am

Kid Buu wrote:Does Vegeta ever actually let a foe transform besides Freeza and Cell? I don't recall him doing that in the Buu arc, but I haven't seen all of Super.
Not really, but the conflict he started against Goku is what gave Buu most of the energy to revive and he knew that going into the fight.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:51 am

Kid Buu wrote:Does Vegeta ever actually let a foe transform besides Freeza and Cell? I don't recall him doing that in the Buu arc, but I haven't seen all of Super.
The Buu situation sort of counts; he's not letting Buu transform, but he is directly causing his release, under the same rationalization as Cell's (wanting to prove his superiority + thinking he could win regardless of who his enemy was).

In regards to Super,* the closest he comes there is toying with Black despite Goku yelling at Vegeta to finish him off, directly leading to Black powering up enough to defeat him. Later, when he has the advantage again, he also toys with him and, unlike Goku, doesn't take any action to stop Future Zamasu and Black from fusing (though he seems surprised by it). He very much does this in the newest Broly movie through. Broly started out as weaker than his base form, and even after he powered up a bunch, Vegeta could've smote him effortlessly. Instead he keeps dragging out their fight until Broly has both powered up and transformed into a form nearly on par with his own Super Saiyan Blue; and even after seeing him undertake such a massive evolution, he still chooses to let Goku and him fight 1 on 1 against Broly for sport, instead of just teaming up and easily beating him. This gives Broly the chance to transform again, and by that point he's far stronger than them.

*Keep in mind, I default to the manga version unless otherwise noted; partly because I haven't seen (wasn't able to sit through) the whole anime.
Kid Buu wrote:Do you think Goku would have allowed Cell to become complete?
50/50 in normal circumstances, due to inconsistent writing. On one hand, he tried to get Gohan to quickly kill Cell, tried to stop the Zamasus from fusing in Super, and tried to stop Buu from being released (even if via retcons he half-assed it). On the other, he wanted to let the androids be created so he could fight them, and Super-era Goku also keeps letting Freeza go in hopes that he'll power up, for basically no reason at this point. He doesn't even have the "I want to fight him!" excuse anymore since Freeza is a weakling at this point and he has a dozen better rivals (both stronger and not trying to murder him) on speed dial. However, this is not a normal circumstance; as flawed as Goku's moral compass is, he consistently sticks to at least one principle, that being he cannot stand other people suffering in his immediate vicinity. So if the price of Cell getting stronger was killing and eating two people who hadn't done much wrong at that point (even if they also wanted to kill him), after he'd done the same to 600,000 innocents, I definitely don't think that Goku would go along with it.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:32 am

Hmm, the Majin Vegeta part is so odd to think about. On one hand we know it's his only chance for a rematch with Goku and that the enemies Kaioshin hyped were underwhelming, but the fact that he has to accept a free power up to be equal to Goku kind of just proves he isn't better.

The Goku thing is so odd to me. I get letting Piccolo go, since he was weaker and life was linked to Kami. Recoome & Burter make sense too since they aren't a threat anymore. Even Freeza to an extent I cans see given his rage Then you get Vegeta, who he lets go despite losing badly to him, and indirectly enables Vegeta to kill a bunch of people on Namek. The Android thing is really stupid, and obviously just being characterized that way since Toiryama needed a plot. Still, I can't really see him picturing going out of his way to help Cell become complete the way Vegeta did.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:19 pm

Kid Buu wrote:Hmm, the Majin Vegeta part is so odd to think about. On one hand we know it's his only chance for a rematch with Goku and that the enemies Kaioshin hyped were underwhelming, but the fact that he has to accept a free power up to be equal to Goku kind of just proves he isn't better.
It's only odd in the context of his Cell arc behavior, e.g. "Kakarot knows that a true Saiyan would rather die than accept another's help in a battle!". In the Saiyan and Namek arcs he prided himself on being a dirty, conniving, and unfair fighter. Saiyans in general were not ones for competition. So Vegeta would probably just congratulate himself on being crafty enough to make a deal with Babidi to get that power, thinking he came out on top because he wasn't following Babidi's orders. Of course that just makes him look dumber when he ends up giving Babidi exactly what he wants anyway.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:25 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Hmm, the Majin Vegeta part is so odd to think about. On one hand we know it's his only chance for a rematch with Goku and that the enemies Kaioshin hyped were underwhelming, but the fact that he has to accept a free power up to be equal to Goku kind of just proves he isn't better.
It's only odd in the context of his Cell arc behavior, e.g. "Kakarot knows that a true Saiyan would rather die than accept another's help in a battle!". In the Saiyan and Namek arcs he prided himself on being a dirty, conniving, and unfair fighter. Saiyans in general were not ones for competition. So Vegeta would probably just congratulate himself on being crafty enough to make a deal with Babidi to get that power, thinking he came out on top because he wasn't following Babidi's orders. Of course that just makes him look dumber when he ends up giving Babidi exactly what he wants anyway.
I guess you could try to rationalize his behaviour in the early Cell arc. He was brought up with the idea that the Super Saiyan was the the best thing ever, and we had yet to see a Super Saiyan lose a fight cleanly. Doing the same thing again with Second Form Cell, just make him looks dumb. This arc in particular is where it's really easy to see characterization being scarified for the plot.

Speaking of, I'm curious to see what Gaffer Tape has to say about the characterization during the Cell Games.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by NewKakarot » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:38 pm

I can't believe I was dumb enough to avoid the Kanzenshuu Forums for all these years.

Now I can discuss my favorite Dragon Ball analysis series with other fans. Cool.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Tavarano » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:26 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:I think that, at a bare minimum, Bulma should've definitely at least TRIED to go out of her way to stop Gero anyway, even against the protests of Goku, Vegeta, and whomever else in the group.
I think it actually would've been a lot more interesting if this situation sparked some sort of an internal schism amongst the group: maybe with characters like Kuririn and Yamucha (hell, throw in Yajirobe even while you're at it to give him at least a somewhat bigger role here) siding with Bulma and going off to help her try and prevent Gero's plans preemptively, while Goku, Vegeta, and possibly maybe even Tenshinhan or Piccolo (the latter having not yet fused with Kami and developed that strengthened sense of responsibility for the world's safety) opt to take on the challenge of the fight.
Its certainly a huge missed opportunity on Toriyama's end, and I totally agree that while I still think the story as it currently stands MOSTLY works fine enough, its definitely on weaker footing than it easily could've been, and it wouldn't have taken very much here in this case to tighten it up.
The characters are deliberately written to be oblivious, irrational and easy-going about everything, that's the only type of character that Toriyama writes, ever read Lady Red? The 10 days before Cell games, they never use them to truly pressure Goku into telling them what he's doing and give up after his throwaway, avoidant answers, even though the situation is very serious, same concept.
Anyway, you're not seeing the whole picture of what goes into DB's writing, consider the following.
The takeaway - no themes, no values, only entertainment, and poison hidden inside that Toriyama felt like specifically mentioning when a question regarding drama and relationships came up, hinting that there is something wrong with it. This poison thing is something he mentioned back in 1996 and then 20 years later, it's not something to be glossed over.
Analyzing those statements and the way Toriyama writes, led me to understand that he writes DB to be immoral, on purpose.
DB starts with the sexual abuse on Bulma, that is all framed within good fun, and the irony of a mentor type character being the main perpetrator, shadiness of the relationship between Goku and grandpa Gohan with Goku sleeping on his ballsack, then you get Goku pulling highly immoral things and getting away with it with at most a slip on the wrist with the story painting him as a hero everytime, the entirety of his marriage is ChiChi jumping over him at the end of saiyan arc and him hitting her through a wall, and there's weird one-sided father-son relationship. The only messages you could get from the original run were that the new generation fails and Vegeta made an error getting someone to protect as Goku only got so good fighting for himself. Within DBS you get the happy ending for Future Trunks ruined and his efforts to save his timeline fail, all the characters live in terror under the new divine beings and never resolve the situation, Goku fighting side by side with Frieza in ToP's finale. There's also an interesting difference in ToP where Toyotarou adopted Toriyamaesque approach and made it just about Zeno having fun, while Toei wrote it to be a moral test for the warriors, with a trust theme thrown in. The narrative in the new Broly movie is also in that manner, the movie spends a decent chunk of time to get you feel sympathetic towards Broly, and then later you get Gogeta trying to murder him in cold blood, while he's unconscious.
This is actually not the main thing I'm getting at, more of a digression, but noteworthy nonetheless, Toriyama is not as careless of a writer as it looks like, his focus lays elsewhere than you would expect.

Now when it comes to poison in the characters, the infamous android scene, what is interesting is the casual approach of the characters, not caring about the world, not caring about themselves, no self-preservation instinct, you have noticed Bulma's irrationality of her not trying to do anything after the meeting, it's the same thing with Kuririn, who first wants to stop the androids, and then quickly gets coerced into making a cute speech, but the most interesting subject here is Gohan, he is by no means a hardened martial artist, he is a soft 6 years old boy that has went through hell purely to save his friends, and now that there is an opportunity to prevent this from happening again and the characters do not choose it, he doesn't react negatively to the situation, he's happily chanting.
Why does he act as if the events of the 2 previous arcs didn't happen, why isn't he begging Goku to change his mind? Well that's because Toriyama doesn't write realistic characters, he only writes emotionally void, inhuman caricatures, and DB characters under the hood aren't any different than his Lady Red is.
The behavior they display here is scattered all around DB, it's Goku dumping his family for 7 years, and them happy to see him when he comes back as if nothing happened, him fucking over his friends by say letting Vegeta go or giving a senzu bean to Cell, and characters outside of a small remark not ever holding him accountable and treating him like best friend, Bulma taking the sexual abuse and hanging around with everyone who does it to her without issues, characters hanging around with genociders, Gohan not training after Buu arc despite his negligence getting everyone killed last time, ChiChi thinking that Gohan's studies are more important than Earth's future, Krilin and his remote dillema, characters not wanting to join ToP thinking that their daily lives are more important despite the threat of erasure, and it's Lady Red getting raped by the taxi driver and happily continuing on her journey.
That might be too many comparisons to Lady Red, but it's like they are asking for themselves to be made.
I wonder whether this panel from Toyotarou wasn't actually a jab at Toriyama's writing, given that his characters are immune to emotional damage.
DB characters no matter what happens, what they go through and what is the next ugly thing that Goku does, will always act like one, big, happy family, that's the "wholesome on a first glance, but actually with poison inside".

Kunzait_83 wrote:I've generally found it rather curious and odd that Toriyama felt that Toei made Goku more innately heroic throughout the anime. By and large, I generally don't see it, at least not within the actual TV anime itself.
Kunzait_83 wrote:I'd be curious to hear from people what else there was in the TV anime (Japanese version only obviously: no dub examples) that might've made Toriyama balk as much as he apparently did at Goku's characterization. I genuinely can't think of anything off the top of my head right now.
He didn't say heroic, but righteous hero, I don't know what dictionary definitions are, but to me as a common Joe they sound widely different, Leonidas from 300 is heroic, but not a righteous hero.
What Toei missed (or maybe did on purpose as the interviewer pointed out, in consideration of the target audience) is that Goku only used Gohan, not treated him like a dad would, that way they humanized Goku and he wasn't "poisonous" as intended. Here are the differences that I recall, not 100% sure on all of them but fairly confident:
- Goku upon finding dead Krilin after 22nd budokai only expresses anger and frustration as always, his anime version weeps.
- There's plenty of filler things implying that Goku was taking care of his family before Raditz' arrival, instead of training all the time.
- While Goku is on the snakeway, there's a panel that says that Goku is not thinking about his son while he's there, in the anime he does at least twice, second time in the Snake Princess' castle, in the context of having to hurry because everyone is waiting for him.
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This scene was changed a lot, Gohan's words were changed from "it hurts too much" to something like "I can't move anymore.", I'm not sure why they did it (Perhaps censorship of violence on kid Gohan that seems to have happened in DBZ?)
but it made Goku look better here, they changed Goku's tone from screaming to being little frustrated, they added a flashback to Piccolo's death, and right after this moment Goku pulls his arm towards Gohan being fully supportive changing the context of the scene, from Goku being an asshole to a mentor.
This is something that Toriyama might have been particular about, it suggests that Goku beforehand was only making excuses to fight alone.
- Goku kaioken scene on Namek with him remembering his family and friends.
- Goku's face after "killing" Frieza shows sadness in the manga, in the anime it doesn't at all.
- Androids killing Goku's friends nightmare.
- Goku kissing ChiChi when he wakes up.
- Right after that an added moment of Goku showing affection towards Gohan on the flying thing.
- The scene in which Goku tells Gohan that he wants to make him a super saiyan has an additional moment of him laying his arms on Gohan's shoulders and smearing his nose, and later tapping his head.
- The scene where Goku tells Gohan that he will cut his hair is extended with Goku grabbing his hair, Toriyama's Goku would have told him to follow.
- In these 2 scenes Goku was changed from cold to affectionate.
- The 10 days before Cell's tournament were completely changed, in the manga Goku was more or less manipulating Gohan to make sure he doesn't continue training and surpass Cell for the fight to be fair, by trying to amuse him on the fishing trip and then dropping him off to Dende to get him busy, in the anime it's great family time and preparation to save the world, including this message.
- The sendoff of Gohan to fight Cell, in the manga manipulative, in the anime supportive, Gohan's reaction is also different, he's doubtful until the end in the manga, in the anime he has a confident smile after initial doubt.
- Goku's reaction when Piccolo convinces him to help Gohan is a surprise in the manga, in the anime it's regret.
- Goku's "sacrifice" with Cell, Toei changed Goku's apology to ChiChi from a slip of poison into Goku apologizing for always being selfish, and didn't animate Goku taking fingers off his forehead on Kaio's planet, just made him appear the way he was drawn in that panel.
- During father-son kamehameha anime Goku gets a little too supportive, and makes it look like it wasn't just a job for him, especially this moment.
- Gohan's reaction when Goku ends the conversation on the lookout is different, in the anime he's content, in the manga he looks as if he wanted him to come back.
- The characters in the manga react with somewhat of a little surprise as Goku goes his way, in the anime they recall him as a good guy and things of the past, particularly interesting is Gohan's comment about Goku, that he was always kind and gave him courage walking up to Frieza, because the way this scene went in the manga, Gohan and Kuririn were somewhat weirded out by Goku walking past them and going for the fight.
- Goku's spirit coming down to lay his hand on Gohan's shoulder during the funeral scene.
- In a filler episode after Cell's death, Gohan mentions that Goku was often taking him to play to some lake, that's certainly not something Toriyama intended.
- Goku meeting Goten scene, the point later was that Goku only gave him a hug only because he was asked to, this is somewhat of a pattern too.
There's also this dialogue there
ChiChi: Goku, I missed you.
Goku: I missed you too.
Toriyama's Goku would have responded with "But you had Gohan with you, didn't you?"
- Bulma's comment at the end suggests that Goku after killing Boo was on two 5 year long training trips, but he is seen hanging around with everyone in filler instead.
- Vegeta's comment when Goku flies off with Uub was changed, it's nowhere near as direct as the manga's version where Vegeta cleanly implies Goku to be manipulative about "protecting the Earth".
- Some more filler where Goku was shown to be affectionate, worried (Goku was never genuinely worried in the manga as far as I recall) and even embarassed.

In summary, Toriyama doesn't write things like this, it's not only against his idea of Goku, but also against his nature as a writer, this isn't "poisonous".
Toriyama likes writing things like this.
Regarding the fight with Raditz, Goku was excited, I don't get why everyone seems to miss these.
And when it comes to Goku being nice and attentive to Gohan... it's called conditioning, and it's the same thing he's doing to Broly in the new movie.
There's also one more thing that sparks my interest there, did Goku perhaps lie to Piccolo about the reason for not grabbing Raditz' tail the second time around? The reasoning is illogical and he might have done it for the win to be satisfying, soon after that he says "If it's the only way to defeat you.", "defeat" is a word you would use when thinking of a competition. There's 1 thing that kills that interpretation which is Raditz' confirmation of Goku's words, but I'm not sure whether Viz' translation is correct here, maybe they missed some ambiguity?
Kunzait_83 wrote:The way that Goku's "...but he (Gero) hasn't done anything yet." line comes across in the manga seems more like its an example of Goku's rural/naive dimness as opposed to him trying to actively dig for any sort of flimsy excuse to fight the Jinzoningen. Its basically a joke at his expense: he legitimately, sincerely doesn't understand why they'd go after someone over something they haven't done yet.
Recall the scene that happens right before, Goku tries to hide the fact that the androids will arrive and if it wasn't for Piccolo's superhearing, the crew wouldn't find out, he considers that his friends might react negatively if he is just to tell the truth.
Goku is aware of what he's doing, actually a lot of his actions are purely driven by him wanting to do things his way and avoid confrontations with others, he lies, hides facts, manipulates, smooth talks, quickly ends conversations, it's a very common trait in his characterization. Just paraphrasing some - "I'm staying in the afterlife because I bring bad guys to Earth, and Gohan is more dependable than me.", "If I kill Piccolo then you will die too god.", "Why do you want to go after Frieza, Vegeta? If not for him universe 7 would lose.", "I'm going to fight at full power so Boo doesn't get ressurected.", "Nah I don't think I could've taken Boo out with ss3 if I tried.", "Don't help Gohan, his hidden power is the only way to beat Cell.".
He might not be cold and calculative about all of this, but effectively it's not that different.
Akira Toriyama wrote:As a rule, there is no such thing as a theme in my work.

BWri
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by BWri » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:05 pm

Tavarano wrote: Goku is aware of what he's doing, actually a lot of his actions are purely driven by him wanting to do things his way and avoid confrontations with others, he lies, hides facts, manipulates, smooth talks, quickly ends conversations, it's a very common trait in his characterization.
Wow! That's some keen observations there. All I can say is it does change how I view Goku. I'll have to read the manga to confirm.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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