MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:34 pm

Tavarano wrote:I wonder whether this panel from Toyotarou wasn't actually a jab at Toriyama's writing, given that his characters are immune to emotional damage.
DB characters no matter what happens, what they go through and what is the next ugly thing that Goku does, will always act like one, big, happy family, that's the "wholesome on a first glance, but actually with poison inside".
That would not surprise me! :lol: To that end it was nice to finally have a morally-restless character in Dragon Ball, Zamasu was of course a very Toriyama take on that archetype, but there were a couple nice bits in there.
Tavarano wrote:- During father-son kamehameha anime Goku gets a little too supportive, and makes it look like it wasn't just a job for him, especially this moment.
Which in turn laid the ground for perhaps the starkest FUNi script edit I can remember "Hey, I don't know where you got this idea that you're no good, because you're not!" As if Goku understands self-esteem issues, let along sees them in other people beyond the most outward frustration.
Tavarano wrote:And when it comes to Goku being nice and attentive to Gohan... it's called conditioning, and it's the same thing he's doing to Broly in the new movie.
You conclude that Goku is effectively suggestive, but not actively mean-spirited about it. Brushing off any positive attention he gives people that broadly strikes me as crossing that line.
JacobYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
Canada

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:42 pm

Hate to interrupt the current conversation, but...
Gaffer Tape wrote:A Trunks Double Feature - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Trunks Specials

Dragon Ball Dissection December concludes with a double look at Trunks's hellish past, which is also the future. Toriyama had his go in the manga, and six months later Toei adapted it into the TV series. What's the difference? And which is better?

Well, if you've seen my Dragon Ball Minus video, you probably already know. Thanks for sticking with me this year. I appreciate all the banter and fun. I hope you all enjoy.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Hmm, the Majin Vegeta part is so odd to think about. On one hand we know it's his only chance for a rematch with Goku and that the enemies Kaioshin hyped were underwhelming, but the fact that he has to accept a free power up to be equal to Goku kind of just proves he isn't better.
It's only odd in the context of his Cell arc behavior, e.g. "Kakarot knows that a true Saiyan would rather die than accept another's help in a battle!". In the Saiyan and Namek arcs he prided himself on being a dirty, conniving, and unfair fighter. Saiyans in general were not ones for competition. So Vegeta would probably just congratulate himself on being crafty enough to make a deal with Babidi to get that power, thinking he came out on top because he wasn't following Babidi's orders. Of course that just makes him look dumber when he ends up giving Babidi exactly what he wants anyway.
So I just saw the new film and:
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by TenshinFan » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:41 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
No, I did indeed say 10 years in my Trunks video yesterday. It will be 7 years later this month that I began Dragon Ball Dissection, but coola and I are referring to the amount of time I've been reviewing on my channel. That will be 10 years this April.
Wow, cheers to 7 more years. Can't wait til you get to GT. Dying for intelligent discussion of it rather than the glut of haters on YT.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by NewKakarot » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:40 pm

Not sure if this has been brought here (and I don't think it was in the Dissection series), but why didn't Bulma realize Future Trunks was her son until Piccolo tells her that he's the future version of her baby?

I know she's only seen him once before, but wouldn't it be obvious the second she knew she was pregnant? It should all click. He is the son of Vegeta and therefore half-Saiyan, which would explain why he doesn't have black hair and has the same hair color as her (only in the manga), but could go Super Saiyan. He had a refrigerator from Capsule Corp that she's never seen before. And lastly, he already told everyone that he's 17 years old, and later goes on to tell Goku that he's from 20 years in the future (which is part of the information Piccolo shares). Knowing his age and what time he's from should make it the most obvious. The only thing Trunks really kept a secret from everyone else was his name and parents.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:47 pm

Kid Buu wrote:So I just saw the new film and:
JacobYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
Canada

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am

All this reminds me of this post:
Cipher wrote:That's pretty much it. Vegeta only seems particularly stupid because the story doesn't magically play out in favor of his mistakes as it does with Goku.

Goku gives the demon king a senzu bean, and he ends up becoming good and defending the Earth.
Goku spares Vegeta, and he saves everyone's life on Namek.
Goku lets Freeza power up, and he fully crushes his ego and gets to learn wacky techniques in space afterward.
Goku lets Majin Buu go and ... well, honestly, this doesn't go so well, but he gets to come back in at the end of the arc for a full redemption.

Vegeta, on the other hand, lets Cell become complete and immediately gets his ass kicked.

And just to add to my discussion of post-Namek Vegeta, use this analogy. You've been training your entire life to get a black belt in karate. Just before you're finally so, so close, two nameless nobodies come in and get it like it's nothing. Then when you finally obtain it, after all that work, everyone comes in and says, "Black belt? Eh, that's not really so great anymore. We really need black belt 2 now." Hell, even Piccolo in the Cell arc comes right up to Vegeta and is all like, "Oh, you became a Super Saiyan? Yeah, I merged with Kami and did better than that like it ain't no thang." So you work your ass off and get your black belt 2 or whatever, only you find out that yours is frayed at the ends and your rival's nine-year-old son just made a perfect one out of nowhere. Then the school closes down, denying you a chance to ever catch up to them. And on the one day it re-opens years later, someone you've never met before starts stealing everyone's attention for his personal, over-dramaticized business. Can you help it if you just have to get up on a table and shout "Can we please get back to what we came here for?"

You'd be pretty angry too. It's like God just woke up one morning and decided it would be funny to mess with Vegeta. Considering that he's a personal friend of Goku, that's actually not unlikely.

In the end, Vegeta's character arc is the most soberingly realistic of the entire series. He doesn't get the typical shonen message of "Try hard and you can do anything." Instead, at the end of the Buu arc, his redemption is realizing that sometimes hard work's just not good enough, and that life isn't fair. The best bet is just to focus on being the best you can be and not comparing yourself to others. It's easy to see why he did spend so much time comparing himself to others though.
:lol:
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by NewKakarot » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:36 pm

Something I just noticed while re-reading through a small bit of the Buu Arc (Chapters 442 and 443):

So, while they're at the Tournament, Videl is getting destroyed by Spopovich, which causes Gohan to rage out and become a Super Saiyan next to all of the other fighters (destroying his bandana in the process). Then when Gohan enters the ring to fight Kibito, he tells him to turn into a Super Saiyan again. Gohan's reaction is "What?! How do you know about Super Saiyans?!"

Does he have short-term memory loss or something?

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Regarder » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:11 am

NewKakarot wrote:Something I just noticed while re-reading through a small bit of the Buu Arc (Chapters 442 and 443):

So, while they're at the Tournament, Videl is getting destroyed by Spopovich, which causes Gohan to rage out and become a Super Saiyan next to all of the other fighters (destroying his bandana in the process). Then when Gohan enters the ring to fight Kibito, he tells him to turn into a Super Saiyan again. Gohan's reaction is "What?! How do you know about Super Saiyans?!"

Does he have short-term memory loss or something?
Maybe he's surprised he knows its name. You can see the transformation and not know about Super Saiyans.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by NewKakarot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:40 pm

Regarder wrote:Maybe he's surprised he knows its name. You can see the transformation and not know about Super Saiyans.
Ah, you're right. Went back quickly to double check to make sure it wasn't called by name. My bad.

But on another note, I now noticed that when they're all eating in Chapter 437, Krillin asks "What are Saiyan stomachs made of?" out loud, and Videl doesn't reply asking what Saiyans are. I think she does in the anime, but I find it weird that she doesn't react to it here.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:48 am

Tavarano wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:I think that, at a bare minimum, Bulma should've definitely at least TRIED to go out of her way to stop Gero anyway, even against the protests of Goku, Vegeta, and whomever else in the group.
I think it actually would've been a lot more interesting if this situation sparked some sort of an internal schism amongst the group: maybe with characters like Kuririn and Yamucha (hell, throw in Yajirobe even while you're at it to give him at least a somewhat bigger role here) siding with Bulma and going off to help her try and prevent Gero's plans preemptively, while Goku, Vegeta, and possibly maybe even Tenshinhan or Piccolo (the latter having not yet fused with Kami and developed that strengthened sense of responsibility for the world's safety) opt to take on the challenge of the fight.
Its certainly a huge missed opportunity on Toriyama's end, and I totally agree that while I still think the story as it currently stands MOSTLY works fine enough, its definitely on weaker footing than it easily could've been, and it wouldn't have taken very much here in this case to tighten it up.
The characters are deliberately written to be oblivious, irrational and easy-going about everything, that's the only type of character that Toriyama writes, ever read Lady Red? The 10 days before Cell games, they never use them to truly pressure Goku into telling them what he's doing and give up after his throwaway, avoidant answers, even though the situation is very serious, same concept.
Anyway, you're not seeing the whole picture of what goes into DB's writing, consider the following.
The takeaway - no themes, no values, only entertainment, and poison hidden inside that Toriyama felt like specifically mentioning when a question regarding drama and relationships came up, hinting that there is something wrong with it. This poison thing is something he mentioned back in 1996 and then 20 years later, it's not something to be glossed over.
Analyzing those statements and the way Toriyama writes, led me to understand that he writes DB to be immoral, on purpose.
DB starts with the sexual abuse on Bulma, that is all framed within good fun, and the irony of a mentor type character being the main perpetrator, shadiness of the relationship between Goku and grandpa Gohan with Goku sleeping on his ballsack, then you get Goku pulling highly immoral things and getting away with it with at most a slip on the wrist with the story painting him as a hero everytime, the entirety of his marriage is ChiChi jumping over him at the end of saiyan arc and him hitting her through a wall, and there's weird one-sided father-son relationship. The only messages you could get from the original run were that the new generation fails and Vegeta made an error getting someone to protect as Goku only got so good fighting for himself. Within DBS you get the happy ending for Future Trunks ruined and his efforts to save his timeline fail, all the characters live in terror under the new divine beings and never resolve the situation, Goku fighting side by side with Frieza in ToP's finale. There's also an interesting difference in ToP where Toyotarou adopted Toriyamaesque approach and made it just about Zeno having fun, while Toei wrote it to be a moral test for the warriors, with a trust theme thrown in. The narrative in the new Broly movie is also in that manner, the movie spends a decent chunk of time to get you feel sympathetic towards Broly, and then later you get Gogeta trying to murder him in cold blood, while he's unconscious.
This is actually not the main thing I'm getting at, more of a digression, but noteworthy nonetheless, Toriyama is not as careless of a writer as it looks like, his focus lays elsewhere than you would expect.

Now when it comes to poison in the characters, the infamous android scene, what is interesting is the casual approach of the characters, not caring about the world, not caring about themselves, no self-preservation instinct, you have noticed Bulma's irrationality of her not trying to do anything after the meeting, it's the same thing with Kuririn, who first wants to stop the androids, and then quickly gets coerced into making a cute speech, but the most interesting subject here is Gohan, he is by no means a hardened martial artist, he is a soft 6 years old boy that has went through hell purely to save his friends, and now that there is an opportunity to prevent this from happening again and the characters do not choose it, he doesn't react negatively to the situation, he's happily chanting.
Why does he act as if the events of the 2 previous arcs didn't happen, why isn't he begging Goku to change his mind? Well that's because Toriyama doesn't write realistic characters, he only writes emotionally void, inhuman caricatures, and DB characters under the hood aren't any different than his Lady Red is.
The behavior they display here is scattered all around DB, it's Goku dumping his family for 7 years, and them happy to see him when he comes back as if nothing happened, him fucking over his friends by say letting Vegeta go or giving a senzu bean to Cell, and characters outside of a small remark not ever holding him accountable and treating him like best friend, Bulma taking the sexual abuse and hanging around with everyone who does it to her without issues, characters hanging around with genociders, Gohan not training after Buu arc despite his negligence getting everyone killed last time, ChiChi thinking that Gohan's studies are more important than Earth's future, Krilin and his remote dillema, characters not wanting to join ToP thinking that their daily lives are more important despite the threat of erasure, and it's Lady Red getting raped by the taxi driver and happily continuing on her journey.
That might be too many comparisons to Lady Red, but it's like they are asking for themselves to be made.
I wonder whether this panel from Toyotarou wasn't actually a jab at Toriyama's writing, given that his characters are immune to emotional damage.
DB characters no matter what happens, what they go through and what is the next ugly thing that Goku does, will always act like one, big, happy family, that's the "wholesome on a first glance, but actually with poison inside".

Kunzait_83 wrote:I've generally found it rather curious and odd that Toriyama felt that Toei made Goku more innately heroic throughout the anime. By and large, I generally don't see it, at least not within the actual TV anime itself.
Kunzait_83 wrote:I'd be curious to hear from people what else there was in the TV anime (Japanese version only obviously: no dub examples) that might've made Toriyama balk as much as he apparently did at Goku's characterization. I genuinely can't think of anything off the top of my head right now.
He didn't say heroic, but righteous hero, I don't know what dictionary definitions are, but to me as a common Joe they sound widely different, Leonidas from 300 is heroic, but not a righteous hero.
What Toei missed (or maybe did on purpose as the interviewer pointed out, in consideration of the target audience) is that Goku only used Gohan, not treated him like a dad would, that way they humanized Goku and he wasn't "poisonous" as intended. Here are the differences that I recall, not 100% sure on all of them but fairly confident:
- Goku upon finding dead Krilin after 22nd budokai only expresses anger and frustration as always, his anime version weeps.
- There's plenty of filler things implying that Goku was taking care of his family before Raditz' arrival, instead of training all the time.
- While Goku is on the snakeway, there's a panel that says that Goku is not thinking about his son while he's there, in the anime he does at least twice, second time in the Snake Princess' castle, in the context of having to hurry because everyone is waiting for him.
-
This scene was changed a lot, Gohan's words were changed from "it hurts too much" to something like "I can't move anymore.", I'm not sure why they did it (Perhaps censorship of violence on kid Gohan that seems to have happened in DBZ?)
but it made Goku look better here, they changed Goku's tone from screaming to being little frustrated, they added a flashback to Piccolo's death, and right after this moment Goku pulls his arm towards Gohan being fully supportive changing the context of the scene, from Goku being an asshole to a mentor.
This is something that Toriyama might have been particular about, it suggests that Goku beforehand was only making excuses to fight alone.
- Goku kaioken scene on Namek with him remembering his family and friends.
- Goku's face after "killing" Frieza shows sadness in the manga, in the anime it doesn't at all.
- Androids killing Goku's friends nightmare.
- Goku kissing ChiChi when he wakes up.
- Right after that an added moment of Goku showing affection towards Gohan on the flying thing.
- The scene in which Goku tells Gohan that he wants to make him a super saiyan has an additional moment of him laying his arms on Gohan's shoulders and smearing his nose, and later tapping his head.
- The scene where Goku tells Gohan that he will cut his hair is extended with Goku grabbing his hair, Toriyama's Goku would have told him to follow.
- In these 2 scenes Goku was changed from cold to affectionate.
- The 10 days before Cell's tournament were completely changed, in the manga Goku was more or less manipulating Gohan to make sure he doesn't continue training and surpass Cell for the fight to be fair, by trying to amuse him on the fishing trip and then dropping him off to Dende to get him busy, in the anime it's great family time and preparation to save the world, including this message.
- The sendoff of Gohan to fight Cell, in the manga manipulative, in the anime supportive, Gohan's reaction is also different, he's doubtful until the end in the manga, in the anime he has a confident smile after initial doubt.
- Goku's reaction when Piccolo convinces him to help Gohan is a surprise in the manga, in the anime it's regret.
- Goku's "sacrifice" with Cell, Toei changed Goku's apology to ChiChi from a slip of poison into Goku apologizing for always being selfish, and didn't animate Goku taking fingers off his forehead on Kaio's planet, just made him appear the way he was drawn in that panel.
- During father-son kamehameha anime Goku gets a little too supportive, and makes it look like it wasn't just a job for him, especially this moment.
- Gohan's reaction when Goku ends the conversation on the lookout is different, in the anime he's content, in the manga he looks as if he wanted him to come back.
- The characters in the manga react with somewhat of a little surprise as Goku goes his way, in the anime they recall him as a good guy and things of the past, particularly interesting is Gohan's comment about Goku, that he was always kind and gave him courage walking up to Frieza, because the way this scene went in the manga, Gohan and Kuririn were somewhat weirded out by Goku walking past them and going for the fight.
- Goku's spirit coming down to lay his hand on Gohan's shoulder during the funeral scene.
- In a filler episode after Cell's death, Gohan mentions that Goku was often taking him to play to some lake, that's certainly not something Toriyama intended.
- Goku meeting Goten scene, the point later was that Goku only gave him a hug only because he was asked to, this is somewhat of a pattern too.
There's also this dialogue there
ChiChi: Goku, I missed you.
Goku: I missed you too.
Toriyama's Goku would have responded with "But you had Gohan with you, didn't you?"
- Bulma's comment at the end suggests that Goku after killing Boo was on two 5 year long training trips, but he is seen hanging around with everyone in filler instead.
- Vegeta's comment when Goku flies off with Uub was changed, it's nowhere near as direct as the manga's version where Vegeta cleanly implies Goku to be manipulative about "protecting the Earth".
- Some more filler where Goku was shown to be affectionate, worried (Goku was never genuinely worried in the manga as far as I recall) and even embarassed.

In summary, Toriyama doesn't write things like this, it's not only against his idea of Goku, but also against his nature as a writer, this isn't "poisonous".
Toriyama likes writing things like this.
Regarding the fight with Raditz, Goku was excited, I don't get why everyone seems to miss these.
And when it comes to Goku being nice and attentive to Gohan... it's called conditioning, and it's the same thing he's doing to Broly in the new movie.
There's also one more thing that sparks my interest there, did Goku perhaps lie to Piccolo about the reason for not grabbing Raditz' tail the second time around? The reasoning is illogical and he might have done it for the win to be satisfying, soon after that he says "If it's the only way to defeat you.", "defeat" is a word you would use when thinking of a competition. There's 1 thing that kills that interpretation which is Raditz' confirmation of Goku's words, but I'm not sure whether Viz' translation is correct here, maybe they missed some ambiguity?
Kunzait_83 wrote:The way that Goku's "...but he (Gero) hasn't done anything yet." line comes across in the manga seems more like its an example of Goku's rural/naive dimness as opposed to him trying to actively dig for any sort of flimsy excuse to fight the Jinzoningen. Its basically a joke at his expense: he legitimately, sincerely doesn't understand why they'd go after someone over something they haven't done yet.
Recall the scene that happens right before, Goku tries to hide the fact that the androids will arrive and if it wasn't for Piccolo's superhearing, the crew wouldn't find out, he considers that his friends might react negatively if he is just to tell the truth.
Goku is aware of what he's doing, actually a lot of his actions are purely driven by him wanting to do things his way and avoid confrontations with others, he lies, hides facts, manipulates, smooth talks, quickly ends conversations, it's a very common trait in his characterization. Just paraphrasing some - "I'm staying in the afterlife because I bring bad guys to Earth, and Gohan is more dependable than me.", "If I kill Piccolo then you will die too god.", "Why do you want to go after Frieza, Vegeta? If not for him universe 7 would lose.", "I'm going to fight at full power so Boo doesn't get ressurected.", "Nah I don't think I could've taken Boo out with ss3 if I tried.", "Don't help Gohan, his hidden power is the only way to beat Cell.".
He might not be cold and calculative about all of this, but effectively it's not that different.
This is arguably the most insightful post on Toriyama, Toei and the franchise ever. This deserves its own thread.

I've had similar thoughts over the years about the series and this just confirms it. Toei is responsible for the majority of the depth in the franchise. Toei made Goku an iconic Anime hero, not Toriyama. Toei made the DB cast seem like real people. Its like you said, Toriyama prefers to write hollow caricatures (and it explains much of the flanderization we see in Modern DB (especially of Goku), as he is more involved with the Anime version this time unlike in the 90s), he would never write a story like the 90s Bardock film nor the History of Trunks anime, nor any of the spinoff ani-comics that Koyama made for Vegeta, Future Trunks and Piccolo.

Super Eyepatch Wolf made similar observations in his The Impact of DBZ video when talking about the Anime adaption.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Tavarano » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:16 pm

One more thing that I noticed in Dragon Ball is that Toriyama is deliberately breaking and avoiding themes, the Buu arc for example where Vegeta and Goku refuse to bring the new generation at the end, then humanity using their collective power seems also like a thematic ending except they get their memory erased, or the denayal of punishment for Vegeta. I suspect that bringing Roshi back in DBS and making him a more relevant warrior than Tenshinhan was also only there to delete the message from 22nd Budokai. A lot of the things would have looked very different under any other author just like it did under Toei's writers, father-son relationship has 0 focus in the manga, Toei's Bardock has thematic connection, Toriyama's doesn't, Toriyama's Trunk's timeline backstory is only exposition, Future Gohan's death doesn't have any impact and Trunks doesn't have any interest in talking to young version of his teacher in the main timeline, the passing of the torch is abrubt, kind of random and you immediately find out that Gohan hasn't even trained, the ss2 in the anime is fullfilling destiny touching kind of moment, in the manga it's extremely shallow, Gohan doesn't listen to what a16 said nor thinks about him ever again and the whole thing is turned into a gag in the next arc, similarly with super saiyan. Even when you compare Toyotaro's work that has to fully comply with Toriyama to Toei's you can already see differences, the ending to Future Trunks arc is somewhat bittersweet in the anime, but in the manga there is absolutely no payoff and everyone moves on as if nothing happened, the ToP has nothing to it in the manga, but it's a test for fighters in the anime.

Seems that Toriyama was mighty annoyed with how the anime went back in the day with him shitting on Goku's potrayal, warning Toei to stop making Dragon Ball wholesome, the narrative in Dragon Ball Evolution and that one interview with Nozawa and is now doing everything in his power to change the perception of his work. The plot structure of Broly movie is telling enough for me, you see Goku's parents killed by Frieza, Goku making excuses to let Frieza go, and Frieza conquering the universe killing everyone again, similarly he makes Broly sympathetic, throws in Goku's words that he knows that he isn't a bad guy and then you get Gogeta trying to kill him for no reason. It's almost as if Toriyama wanted to sour you on the whole thing, in my opinion he does.
~Akira Toriyama
There is no such thing as a theme in my work.
The work "Dragon Ball" is nothing but fighting.
As long as I can allow the reader to have an enjoyable time once, I don’t mind if nothing remains.
It may seem wholesome at first glance, but there’s actually poison inside.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by KuririnNoKotoKa » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:17 am

Haven't been compelled to post or keep up with this for a while, but your last two posts deserve proper replies so lets unpack some:
Tavarano wrote:One more thing that I noticed in Dragon Ball is that Toriyama is deliberately breaking and avoiding themes,
Yes and no.

He is certainly attempting to, at least to a degree, but he ended up stumbling into something else, most likely due to how limited he is as an author.

Modern DB is exceptionally coherent in one thing: You gotta learn to love fighting. Everything else can go fuck itself.

Freeza, Hit, Jiren and now Broly all have this exact arc. Zamasu went against the fight in an attempt to vindicate his own perception of justice and got wiped from existence.

This continues even to the setting where the main stories happen: Empty space between universes (U6 arc), a world that's on the brink of death for the second time (FT arc) and nothingness itself (ToP).

His disdain towards religion and godly figures is as strong as ever, if not stronger, even when he isn't directly penning the work. From the Hakaishin's overwhelmingly passive role in, well, everything, to Gowasu near boundless incompetence and neglect, our Kaioshin's concern over his own image to other gods rather than the continued existence of his universe.

Even the Zen'o at the end of the Tournament of Power, with the test of morality for fighters completely misses the mark. The revived universes have no idea of said message and will likely go back to their shithole (U9 is shown to still be in flames afterall).

17 did wish them all back, but Goku? Goku was just there to fight. The text on his end is abundantly clear: He really just wanted the fight, seeing as he was gonna ask them for another round before Beerus shut him up this time around, harking back to the start of the arc.

There is no message here, you have ignorant gods thinking they taught humans a lesson and Goku getting to meet someone so strong that he finally got pushed past his previous wall.
the Buu arc for example where Vegeta and Goku refuse to bring the new generation at the end, then humanity using their collective power seems also like a thematic ending except they get their memory erased, or the denial of punishment for Vegeta.
But Goku wanted to bring them in again. It's Vegeta who dismisses him.

The message isn't one of altruism, he just isn't having any of that shit anymore and wants to do his thing on his own. The kids can deal with the mess, it isn't worth his time.

The neglect of the heroic sacrifice goes back all the way to the Red Ribbon Arc. Goku letting go of the 4-Star Dragon Ball to revive Upa's father, despite it his search for his grandpa's memento being what kickstarted the entire arc, would be what a more traditional author would do, especially with him being able to give a proper goodbye to Grandpa Gohan, but no, Goku jumps up and grabs it. There is no sacrifice, as early as the third story arc, everything bends in service of Goku and it only escalates from there.
I suspect that bringing Roshi back in DBS and making him a more relevant warrior than Tenshinhan was also only there to delete the message from 22nd Budokai. A lot of the things would have looked very different under any other author just like it did under Toei's writers, father-son relationship has 0 focus in the manga, Toei's Bardock has thematic connection, Toriyama's doesn't,


Then he failed, as Muten Roshi's message lives on through Goku.

With regards to Bardock... Neither version does really. In fact, the TV special shares a lot of Minus/M20 Bardock's issues. It just has the decency of being a proper story for its protagonist.

Goku still effectively tells his father to fuck off and owns that he and the rest of the Saiyans, including Goku himself, are heaping piles of shit.
Toriyama's Trunk's timeline backstory is only exposition, Future Gohan's death doesn't have any impact and Trunks doesn't have any interest in talking to young version of his teacher in the main timeline, the passing of the torch is abrubt, kind of random and you immediately find out that Gohan hasn't even trained, the ss2 in the anime is fullfilling destiny touching kind of moment, in the manga it's extremely shallow, Gohan doesn't listen to what a16 said nor thinks about him ever again and the whole thing is turned into a gag in the next arc, similarly with super saiyan.
They are all gags. The framing of Future Gohan's death is that of a gag. Gohan's resolve to take over as Earth's protector is all but gone in the turn of a page. Even Goku's aspiration of finding and training with masters from generations get shat on because he surpasses them all absurdly fast, as we learn that Gohan was still the benchmark after all those years and Goku himself vastly surpassed him too.
Seems that Toriyama was mighty annoyed with how the anime went back in the day with him shitting on Goku's potrayal, warning Toei to stop making Dragon Ball wholesome, the narrative in Dragon Ball Evolution and that one interview with Nozawa and is now doing everything in his power to change the perception of his work. The plot structure of Broly movie is telling enough for me, you see Goku's parents killed by Frieza, Goku making excuses to let Frieza go, and Frieza conquering the universe killing everyone again, similarly he makes Broly sympathetic, throws in Goku's words that he knows that he isn't a bad guy and then you get Gogeta trying to kill him for no reason. It's almost as if Toriyama wanted to sour you on the whole thing, in my opinion he does.
Oh, he most certainly was. Battle of Gods borderline talks down to the viewer at times to hammer how "to do Dragon Ball right".

And to this day I believe Mai, Shu and Pilaf are only kids in it out of spite with GT. There is zero reason for them to be there, outside some light pedophilia implications as a gag that don't really take take proper shape until Super became a thing, which is obviously irrelevant in the context of BoG's creation.

It's just oddly specific that the trio that wished for Goku to become a child in GT became children when Toriyama came back at the helm...

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Regarder » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:39 pm

So from the perspective Tavarano is promoting, is Dragonball a secretly cynical work or a secretly nihilist work? Stuff from Toriyama about their being "no message" clearly conflicts with other stuff from Toriyama about "poison", or maybe we have to just take this one level up, and get meta, going from the story and applying the lens to Toriyama himself. Perhaps Toriyama isn't even really forgetful as people often think, for example. Perhaps he pretends to have forgotten to get into a more chaotic mindset and cast even more doubt on trying to interpret the story by analyzing his words? Perhaps he deliberately creates contradictions for us to look for deeper meaning in? Perhaps Toriyama himself is this elaborate Andy Kaufman esque gag character, and It was all 3D chess the whole time. :lol:

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:49 pm

KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:
Goku still effectively tells his father to fuck off and owns that he and the rest of the Saiyans, including Goku himself, are heaping piles of shit.
You must have completely misread the Namek saga (especially the Toei version). Goku has no issues embracing Saiyan pride since then, especially in the new Broly film.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:51 pm

Regarder wrote:So from the perspective Tavarano is promoting, is Dragonball a secretly cynical work or a secretly nihilist work? Stuff from Toriyama about their being "no message" clearly conflicts with other stuff from Toriyama about "poison", or maybe we have to just take this one level up, and get meta, going from the story and applying the lens to Toriyama himself. Perhaps Toriyama isn't even really forgetful as people often think, for example. Perhaps he pretends to have forgotten to get into a more chaotic mindset and cast even more doubt on trying to interpret the story by analyzing his words? Perhaps he deliberately creates contradictions for us to look for deeper meaning in? Perhaps Toriyama himself is this elaborate Andy Kaufman esque gag character, and It was all 3D chess the whole time. :lol:
Or maybe Toriyama is just a lazy, bad writer who got extremely lucky when working on the original manga lol.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by KuririnNoKotoKa » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:56 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:
Goku still effectively tells his father to fuck off and owns that he and the rest of the Saiyans, including Goku himself, are heaping piles of shit.
You must have completely misread the Namek saga (especially the Toei version). Goku has no issues embracing Saiyan pride since then, especially in the new Broly film.
One is not mutually exclusive with the other.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by KuririnNoKotoKa » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:00 pm

Regarder wrote:So from the perspective Tavarano is promoting, is Dragonball a secretly cynical work or a secretly nihilist work? Stuff from Toriyama about their being "no message" clearly conflicts with other stuff from Toriyama about "poison", or maybe we have to just take this one level up, and get meta, going from the story and applying the lens to Toriyama himself. Perhaps Toriyama isn't even really forgetful as people often think, for example. Perhaps he pretends to have forgotten to get into a more chaotic mindset and cast even more doubt on trying to interpret the story by analyzing his words? Perhaps he deliberately creates contradictions for us to look for deeper meaning in? Perhaps Toriyama himself is this elaborate Andy Kaufman esque gag character, and It was all 3D chess the whole time. :lol:
Or he is just kind of a dick, somewhat mean spirited, writer of funnies, who also happens to like Wuxia/Kung Fu flicks, and would rather amuse himself above all else.

Fairly simple really.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Tavarano » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:21 am

KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:But Goku wanted to bring them in again. It's Vegeta who dismisses him.
Goku didn't have to listen to Vegeta, regardless of thematic incoherence I consider it poorly written since genki dama is framed as a final attempt at defeating Boo, while they can just call Gohan and Gotenks in if it doesn't work.
KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:Then he failed, as Muten Roshi's message lives on through Goku.
Interestingly enough in the manga Roshi still had to teach Goku how to fight, perhaps something he came up with when the anime was already done with ToP.
KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:They are all gags. The framing of Future Gohan's death is that of a gag. Gohan's resolve to take over as Earth's protector is all but gone in the turn of a page. Even Goku's aspiration of finding and training with masters from generations get shat on because he surpasses them all absurdly fast, as we learn that Gohan was still the benchmark after all those years and Goku himself vastly surpassed him too.
Makes sense, so basically his dissatisfaction with Goku's potrayal boils down to the fact that Toei wrote him as a character to sympathize with while he, like everyone else, are just meant to provide entertainment like he likes to say, he probably fucked Gohan extra hard in modern DB for the exact same reason he was dissatisfied with Goku.
KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:And to this day I believe Mai, Shu and Pilaf are only kids in it out of spite with GT. There is zero reason for them to be there, outside some light pedophilia implications as a gag that don't really take take proper shape until Super became a thing, which is obviously irrelevant in the context of BoG's creation.

It's just oddly specific that the trio that wished for Goku to become a child in GT became children when Toriyama came back at the helm...
How similar are Maron and Marron in Japanese?
Regarder wrote:So from the perspective Tavarano is promoting, is Dragonball a secretly cynical work or a secretly nihilist work? Stuff from Toriyama about their being "no message" clearly conflicts with other stuff from Toriyama about "poison", or maybe we have to just take this one level up, and get meta, going from the story and applying the lens to Toriyama himself. Perhaps Toriyama isn't even really forgetful as people often think, for example. Perhaps he pretends to have forgotten to get into a more chaotic mindset and cast even more doubt on trying to interpret the story by analyzing his words? Perhaps he deliberately creates contradictions for us to look for deeper meaning in? Perhaps Toriyama himself is this elaborate Andy Kaufman esque gag character, and It was all 3D chess the whole time. :lol:
Secretly? It seems obvious to me, Bora doesn't get ressurected because Upa needs his dad, he gets ressurected because grandpa Gohan wants to have fun with babes in the afterlife, and Goku refuses to have a farewell meal with Upa and Bora because who cares about sentimental bullshit. Why do you think there is a conflict between no message and poison?
~Akira Toriyama
There is no such thing as a theme in my work.
The work "Dragon Ball" is nothing but fighting.
As long as I can allow the reader to have an enjoyable time once, I don’t mind if nothing remains.
It may seem wholesome at first glance, but there’s actually poison inside.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Regarder » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:50 am

Tavarano wrote:Why do you think there is a conflict between no message and poison?
Because poison is a message. Cynicism isn't the same as nothingness.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/18!)

Post by Tavarano » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:27 pm

Regarder wrote:Because poison is a message. Cynicism isn't the same as nothingness.
I see, technically you're right, you can say that Lady Red has a message, don't try to better the world or you will get fucked, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Toriyama is contradicting himself, when you think of something having a message colloquially it's something inspiring or thought-provoking while in Toriyama's writing it's always just quick gags that the narrative doesn't linger on.
KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:The neglect of the heroic sacrifice goes back all the way to the Red Ribbon Arc. Goku letting go of the 4-Star Dragon Ball to revive Upa's father, despite it his search for his grandpa's memento being what kickstarted the entire arc, would be what a more traditional author would do, especially with him being able to give a proper goodbye to Grandpa Gohan, but no, Goku jumps up and grabs it. There is no sacrifice, as early as the third story arc, everything bends in service of Goku and it only escalates from there.
In this case I was thinking of the narrative pointing out that Vegeta went too far and there's no redemption for him anymore to let him go later, it kind of has a cynical message again, as long as you are useful you can get away with anything, maybe that's what Toriyama was going for.

Piccolo's comment that even a super saiyan has a weakness after Goku knocks ChiChi through a wall is peak cynism, normally you would see such comment when a husband gives up an argument to please his wife, not like this.
~Akira Toriyama
There is no such thing as a theme in my work.
The work "Dragon Ball" is nothing but fighting.
As long as I can allow the reader to have an enjoyable time once, I don’t mind if nothing remains.
It may seem wholesome at first glance, but there’s actually poison inside.

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