MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/6/20!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:31 pm

I'm actually surprised by that. It always seemed like Gaffer preferred the Buu arc over the Cell arc.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

Post by Scsigs » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:59 pm
>Cell arc better than Buu arc

Of course you realize, this means war.
I mean, when you look at it, what does Cell have that Buu doesn't? A consistent tone & no mood whiplash. Also, only a few real moments of out of character stuff or blatant stupidity to allow the plot to move. Also no forced moments for the sake of a cool fight. The Buu arc has those in SPADES!
Like, really. Actually look at how that arc was written. It's unnecessarily long (or at least feels that way because the pacing's awful from one big thing to the next after the first several), there's forced plot points galore just to make the plot happen (Goku being stupid or cocky for no reason, Buu's forms, Supreme Kai WOEFULLY underestimating EVERYTHING despite supposedly knowing everything that COULD happen, etc), things that don't make ANY sense from either an internal-logic standpoint or just regular logic standpoint, the humor clashing VERY much with the more serious tone (often times this was on purpose for the sake of awkward comedy, but it doesn't make most of it any better), etc. The Buu arc's a mess. You can argue the others have some of the problems & more than I've already mentioned, but never to the degree this one does.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:37 pm

Finally got time to catch up, spent the whole day (yesterday) watching through the Cell arc dissection beginning to its end (so as the movies) and I can say this arc still remains as one of my favorites even though I'm aware of its writing problems.

Really excited to see your view on Freeza arc (TV) as there's pretty interesting stuff to note through the good, the bad and the unberable filler.

Tavarano wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:37 pm
Is that image actually from the manga? Goku looks kinda creepy there lol
Surprised you didn't mention this was actually the first time we had Goku and Vegeta fighting together, something that would become the staple of the series until nowadays, to the point of feeling tiresome.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

Post by Scsigs » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:24 pm

Noah wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:37 pm
Tavarano wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:37 pm
Is that image actually from the manga? Goku looks kinda creepy there lol
No. There's too much shading (Toriyama hated that & partly invented the Super Saiyan form as to not need to shade Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Goten, etc's hair at points), the face is weird, & it doesn't line up with the scenes. It's clearly a meme. A good, creepy meme, but a meme nonetheless.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

Post by emperior » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:28 am

Scsigs wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:24 pm
Noah wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:37 pm
Tavarano wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:37 pm
Is that image actually from the manga? Goku looks kinda creepy there lol
No. There's too much shading (Toriyama hated that & partly invented the Super Saiyan form as to not need to shade Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Goten, etc's hair at points), the face is weird, & it doesn't line up with the scenes. It's clearly a meme. A good, creepy meme, but a meme nonetheless.
That’s not a meme, it’s an actual Toriyama drawing. Though I don’t remember if it appears in the manga.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/21/19!)

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:29 pm

Finally catching up!

I always mentally skip over how poorly written the Cell reveal is. I guess I get too caught up in the eventual Cell Game stuff to try and think about how cool Cell actually is as a slasher villain. I want to see how the arc would have turned out if Cell had nit given it all away.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/19!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:30 pm

Fake Namek, Real Crabs - DBD TV: The Freeza Arc Part 1!

Dragon Ball Dissection December begins again, and this year it's all anime! We begin with our look at filler, primarily from the first half of the arc. And I opened it with my first ever YouTube premiere. It was a lot of fun interacting with viewers as the video unfolded in real time. Anyway, let me know what you think, and thanks so much for watching!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/19!)

Post by coola » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:12 pm

That bit with "Piccolo-san daisuki" made episode previews so charming, and its really shame they are only legally available on OOP Dragon Boxes :)

I really like Fake Namek and Blooma adventures of Namek filler too (Only nitpick would be when Blooma imagined herself getting tortured by Freeza, she never saw him)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/19!)

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:14 pm

i can somewhat get the dislike for fake namek, i think it's fine but it is a few episodes long, the orphan stuff was right before, and it feels extremely pointless. obviously all filler is but i can see how someone watching the series for the first time could feel annoyed with that part. crab stuff though, and most of bulma on namek, i find really fun and a decent break from the action.

super excited too see the rest of these, when i first tried to watch z like 9 years ago, i did stop at the freeza arc because i knew how infamously long it is, i finally got around to watching it this year.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/19!)

Post by Rory » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:34 pm

I'm kinda relieved that you like the early Namek filler! To me its always been on par with the Saiyan arc filler in terms of quality... If not better in some aspects. I think the reason people don't like fake Namek is because it's a waste of time... I used to be the same way! I feel like a lot of people here put a lot of stock into 'canon', like "this is wasting time, let's get to the canon stuff!", without actually looking at the quality of the 'time wasting' stuff. Fake Namek (as you pointed out) is actually of higher quality than a lot of the actual manga-material that follows it, so why do people hate it?

Well I think it's a combination of the aforementioned canon-stock, and.. well, I don't think it helps that it's more reminiscent of earlier Dragon Ball than post Saiyan Dragon Ball, which people in English speaking countries weren't really used to. So in retrospect a lot of people look at it as 'boring filler', and not cool adventure side-plots. That being said I don't really remember any one complaining about it as a kid.

Anyway Lance, thanks again! The last month of the year can be a tough time, and I honestly mean this when I say DBCember really helps some of us get through it. Looking forward to next week!

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/19!)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am

I like both space orphans and fake Namek. Space orphans helps give more build up to Freeza, while fake Namek gives a throwback to the more adventure stuff in the beginning of the manga.

That Guldo/Vegeta clip is hilarious. Especially when he gets hit by the beam and rolls over.

As for filler being waste of time, I don't really mind that either as long as it is entertaining. Some parts of the comic feel pointless too.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/19!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:47 am

The Collapse of DBZ's Animation and Pacing - DBD TV: The Freeza Arc Part 2!

No need to mince words here. I've always thought the animated series takes a huge nosedive in quality at about this point. 20 years after scratching my head wondering why, I finally get to dive in to talk about it. And it was very kind of Ajay to check parts of my script to make sure I didn't say anything wrong about the animation.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/19!)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:40 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:47 am
The Collapse of DBZ's Animation and Pacing - DBD TV: The Freeza Arc Part 2!

No need to mince words here. I've always thought the animated series takes a huge nosedive in quality at about this point. 20 years after scratching my head wondering why, I finally get to dive in to talk about it. And it was very kind of Ajay to check parts of my script to make sure I didn't say anything wrong about the animation.
Yeah, the production...just fell the h*ck apart during this era. It doesn't help that Movie #6: "A Super Decisive Battle for Earth" and the Bardock TV special all happened in the same time period. The Studio Junio episodes would always borrow animators from the in-house team so it's not surprising that they would all but disappear during that same era. Oddly enough, Nakatsuru Katsuyoshi gets his first of two episodes as animation supervisor during this era, Episode #44. Nakatsuru uses in-house animators for this episode and the storyboard and episode direction is handled by the mysterious Orime Tatsuya. Orime is an obvious pseudonym for someone, although I don't know who. Orime also was one of five storyboard artists for Movie #6. Of the original seven films Movie #6 is the only one to have more than one storyboard artist.
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Kei's mentioned before that Movie #9 is said to have been so poorly animated because Nishio Daisuke was having trouble drawing his storyboard for the movie. This makes me wonder if he was having similar issues for Movie #6 and it just wound up hurting the schedule even more. Nishio called in all of the franchise's then best directors to help him storyboard the movie, though. One day I want to try to break down which section Yama'uchi Shigeyasu handled since he was the series' best director during the original run. Now Yama'uchi is an even better director, although I think his student Nagamine Tatsuya edges him out when it comes to combat scenes, at least. Yama'uchi's Digimon movie is so incredible, I suggest checking it and the two Hosoda Mamoru films out someday. Those three are probably the best three films Toei Animation has ever produced.

The shortage of staff is definitely a problem that has to do with Toei Animation itself. I don't know much about what the studio was going through in 1990-1991 but it is the job of the producer and production assistants to recruit animators directors. At the time Dragon Ball was only using using in-house episode directors and I get the feeling that that was really harming the quality. I like the idea of the Gin'yuu battle on Kaiou's world but clearly it was tossed together haphazardly. Episode #94 seemed to be suffering through a production issue. It's a Studio Live episode but it has help from two in-house Toei Animation animators: Ide Takeo and Okimoto Hideko. The episode was also storyboarded by Episode Director Ueda Yoshihiro, who directed the rather well done battles in Movie #12 and Movie #14, so I'm wondering if Ueda was either not as good a director yet or was basically told that he wasn't allowed to use too many drawings for this episode. I know that modern Ueda is a terrible director but he seemed to be pretty strong during Dragon Ball Z--and even the 2008, 2010 and 2012 specials. Poking through Episode #94 as I write this post and the animation comes off as very stilted in a few cuts, so I wonder if the Ueda was basically told "No tweens!" God knows that Episode #95, boarded and directed by Yama'uchi Shigeyasu, comes off as being very bland, too. It's not surprising. Yama'uchi was asked at a con about Episode #95 considering how important it is and he admitted to not remembering anything about it because it. I think everyone was in pure Hell during this time, especially consider how #102 doesn't cover a single chapter of the comic and is partially a recap episode with scenes ignored in #103.

The staring definitely annoys me. The bigger problem is just how few animators, time and tweens they were allowed. Naruto Shippuuden handled its major fights with real care and months of pre-production. Hell, the climatic, decade-long wait for Naruto and Sasuke's rematch was scheduled so that Yamashita Hiroyuki (an animator that joined two years after the original masterpiece Naruto versus Sasuke Episode #133 but quickly became a face of the franchise due to how much good animation he would turn out so quickly) could direct the six-chapter long fight as a two episode battle, personally storyboarding, directing, and correcting animation drawings for both episodes. This is to say nothing of when they would bend over backwards for the other Yamashita, Tsuru, Wakabayashi, Sessha and Murata episodes, either.

Dragon Ball never got that kind of forcefulness from its leadership, where talent was being corralled to essentially make an episode-length movie for an important battle. The closest we'd ever gotten was for Dragon Ball Super #130-131 (with Nakamura and Ishitani storyboarding and directing) and even then those episodes had almost no animators to choose from thanks to the poor production schedule for them. Tate and Shida's scenes from #130 are still the only really great bits from those episodes and they're still not the best. Ishitani's directing for #131 is masterful, though, so that's a major plus.

This post is so poorly structured, LOL, sorry.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/19!)

Post by Scsigs » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:56 pm

Just gonna copy/paste what I said in the comments of the video just now.

I'm so glad I only watched Kai for this arc of the anime. Sure, the animation quality might've been inconsistent, but there was less of it & the pacing was VASTLY improved. Even though Kai kept the stupid Ginyu as Bulma filler, it's just a small thing I can easily ignore in that version of the anime that it doesn't entirely bother me. The better dub that doesn't have Vegeta break continuity & say Frieza forced him to be how he is by threatening to kill his father, along with better voice acting & a closer-translated script, is also a MAJOR plus.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/19!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:39 am

What Makes Good Filler? - DBD TV: The Freeza Arc Part 3!

The third video of the month is here. We go back to looking at filler, but I use Freeza Arc filler to try to explore a broader question: what causes me specifically to like filler? Maybe those same reasons will hold true for you as well.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/19!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 am

I'm really glad I'm not the only person who thinks that filler doesn't have to justify it's existence by connecting itself into the main plot. As long as it's interesting, charming and whimsical, it's fine by me.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/19!)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:56 am

I like the individual cartoon original material. It fleshes the characters out in ways Toriyama doesn't, as we see with those early Gohan episodes or the Gi'nyuu. I wish more had been done to make it easier to stay behind the comic so that episodes could cover 3-5 chapters.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/19!)

Post by Scsigs » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:45 pm

My problem with filler is that more often than not the filler in an anime based on a manga while the manga's ongoing tends to devolve into "random bullshit that wastes the audience's time, or stuff that contradicts later established material." This is why I don't begrudge Kai for removing most of the filler from Z to condense the story & why I call The Final Chapters for not cutting out enough of the filler. Even though we lost good examples of filler, I don't care. If it's not filler that couldn't be easily removed from the original animation (like Gregory or the stuff with Gohan saving Chobi at the start of the Buu Saga if that was filler like I think I've seen some people say), I don't care. If you're intending to give a more true to the manga experience, I expect that, warts & all.
Random bullshit: Added Ginyu frog shit, Bulma's adventures underwater, Chichi's want to go to space, Gohan stalling for time, Hell, Fake Namek, the space bandit kids, Arlia, etc.
Stuff that contradicts later or earlier material (that's not a Toriyama retcon): Hell (contradicted not only by Res F/Super, but also Piccolo's words on the subject in the Buu Saga & other things shown in the manga & Z), Garlic Jr., Gohan knowing what Cell looks like int he Time Chamber, Gohan's birthday episode, Goku & Majin Vegeta's fight actually being shown, the Heaven scenes, etc.

Now, if there's quick filler to address inconsistencies, I don't mind. Or if there's filler material that the author of the manga wanted to put into the story but didn't for some reason, but told the anime staff they wanted it reincorperated into the anime, I have no problems with that either. An example of that would be Eiichiro Oda having the anime staff of the One Piece anime early on put back in a quick story involving Usopp that he wanted to put in the manga, but had to cut it out to be able for the crew to reach the Grand Line by chapter 100.
By serious contrast, we have shows where the anime staff clearly doesn't wanna contradict or add major stuff to the manga's storyline, so they either add filler scenes that seriously bog down the pacing (Naruto & Naruto Shippuden) or they make several filler story arcs (Bleach) that you can easily skip over & lose NOTHING of value as a result.

Or filler that's neither here nor there or can sour the experience. The OG Sailor Moon anime is FILLED with a lot of filler, story & character changes, & additions that add nothing of overall value to the story, lore, or characters. In fact, the filler actually made me hate the titular character because she's inconsistently written not only in the filler episodes, but also with her overall character. Not helped by her actions & lines just her being a wimp, a prude, or a winy bitch. By contrast, Sailor Moon Crystal, though maybe has pacing issues, is by far more consistent in its writing & pacing than the original anime. It also didn't make needless changes from the manga for no reason & I actually like Usagi as a character because she's not inconsistent or badly written in that version of the story, or at least is written far less inconsistently.

There's also showing not just telling, which can help in storytelling when the animators did flashbacks of certain things happening that I don't have a problem with as long as it's not contradictory or that long.

And, some filler in Z is enjoyable for me, like the Otherworld Tournament, but unfortunately, most of the filler in Z is completely pointless, eats up time, or isn't good & I can't look passed these things.

However, if we look at Super really quick, the filler outside of the movie recaps isn't actually that bad. Sure, there are mini arcs in between the new ones that Toriyama comes up with, but I enjoyed most of them since they're harmless slice of life episodes &, in fact, set up certain things in advance of them happening in the later arcs right after them. This is a good thing especially since Toriyama only rights basic outlines & isn't the showrunner for the Super anime or manga. I appreciate if you can make filler work & not just waste the audience's time & it's when a work isn't adapting a source material that I think filler can work the best. Super being made for an anime medium is probably the best thing that could happen to it, since it allows for better pacing of the arcs & allows the anime staff to have fun with certain things. On top of that, the filler is short & can be skipped over if you don't like it, so that's a blessing in disguise.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/19!)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:48 pm

Naruto did full-on arcs to keep ahead of the comic most of the time. The six cours of Naruto Shippuuden are the only ones that drag like a bitch by adapting less than a chapter an episode often times. It doesn't help that the series had no animators or animation drawings to use, either. One we started getting into the seventh and eighth cours the series began to pick up but in terms of quality. Hell, we got two movie-quality episodes in Tsuru Toshiyuki's #82 and #85. Mistare was talking about how directing could make character interaction better than the comic and I say look no further than this scene of Shikamaru and his dad playing Shougi. I wish we had even more of that in Dragon Ball.

Personally, I wish Nishio Daisuke and friends would have just committed to changing the comic and not trying to be so panel-for-panel in scenes. Do better! It's what the Yuu Yuu Hakusho cartoon did!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/19!)

Post by Scsigs » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:45 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:48 pm
Mistare was talking about how directing could make character interaction better than the comic...
Him talking about how direction of a scene can make said scene better only applied to the scenes adapted from the manga from what I saw. I was getting to how, in general, filler in anime adapted from a manga isn't usually high quality stuff. Often times, that kind of filler is incredibly low quality or shallow because the writers don't have fun with it. One Piece's filler mini arcs are often in the spirit of the show & the writers just have fun with what they do, since they understand them.

And, yeah, I know Naruto did filler arcs as well, I was just pointing to Bleach because they did those more often as opposed to single filler episodes or episodes with filler in them by comparison.
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