Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[Rocketman]

For anyone interested, here are some good reads on the subject...

Combat Speed of Dragon Ball Characters

How Fast are Dragon Ball Characters

Dbz Characters are FTL

My favorite, but not without its flaws, a super analysis of both characters:

Death Battle Erred: Goku vs Superman

Or, rather than reading all this bullshit, you could just masturbate. If somebody's getting wanked around here, it might as well be you.

[VegettoEX]

but this second one was them capitalizing and trying to make more money

What do you have to back this statement up with other than your dislike of the product?

[White Oni]

For anyone interested, here are some good reads on the subject...

Combat Speed of Dragon Ball Characters

How Fast are Dragon Ball Characters

Dbz Characters are FTL

My favorite, but not without its flaws, a super analysis of both characters:

Death Battle Erred: Goku vs Superman

Or, rather than reading all this bullshit, you could just masturbate. If somebody's getting wanked around here, it might as well be you.

Becareful man, VegettoEX said we were all warned, and.... PFFFFTT lol yeah, like you could ever be held accountable for your terrible attitude on this site Rocket.

Almost forgot you had immunity. Ma bad!

[KaiserNeko]

but this second one was them capitalizing and trying to make more money

What do you have to back this statement up with other than your dislike of the product?

I honestly don't want to get too far into the details of how I know one thing or another involving the creation of the Death Battle, but I have my own reasons for believing that this was largely capitalizing on their last Death Battle in hopes of getting more views... beyond the fact that this entire battle ended up a poorly written, one sided mess that barely did anything to actually advance the debate and explore the concept.

[Saiyan007]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nks-yThwUM

DragonBall Super proves that DBZ characters are much faster than light

Beerus travels intergalactic distances in under 2 mins by himself

making him hilariously FTL

[pacz360]

Alright imho i consider most characters in dbz in the relativistic ballpark pre-bog only times they were ftl was in the anime and movies but as super showed top tiers like beerus and whis are ftl by a huge margin.

[VegettoEX]

Becareful man, VegettoEX said we were all warned, and.... PFFFFTT lol yeah, like you could ever be held accountable for your terrible attitude on this site Rocket.

Almost forgot you had immunity. Ma bad!

This is not a valid contribution to the conversation. If you believe a post should be reported, please use the tools to report a post. Further posts like this may result in account strikes, which is not something you want.

I honestly don't want to get too far into the details of how I know one thing or another involving the creation of the Death Battle, but I have my own reasons for believing that this was largely capitalizing on their last Death Battle in hopes of getting more views... beyond the fact that this entire battle ended up a poorly written, one sided mess that barely did anything to actually advance the debate and explore the concept.

Then I don't see what point your contribution is here, either. Don't come in to a conversation just to say "this does not further the debate" and borderline-slander people. Someone in your position surely should understand how that looks. Criticize the points, not the people.

Alright imho i consider most characters in dbz in the relativistic ballpark pre-bog only times they were ftl was in the anime and movies but as super showed top tiers like beerus and whis are ftl by a huge margin.

This is unreadable. Please review the community guidelines.

[Saiyan007]

what he said wasn't unreadable i understood perfectly what he said

[KaiserNeko]

I honestly don't want to get too far into the details of how I know one thing or another involving the creation of the Death Battle, but I have my own reasons for believing that this was largely capitalizing on their last Death Battle in hopes of getting more views... beyond the fact that this entire battle ended up a poorly written, one sided mess that barely did anything to actually advance the debate and explore the concept.

Then I don't see what point your contribution is here, either. Don't come in to a conversation just to say "this does not further the debate" and borderline-slander people. Someone in your position surely should understand how that looks. Criticize the points, not the people.

Point well made, apologies for my behavior.

Although, my comments about it not furthering the debate are, ultimately, my own personal opinions on the product, not necessarily on them. An opinion anyone is obviously free to disagree with, but I honestly felt like it was just a retread that introduced new concepts, then did almost nothing with them.

[h0kuten]

Even if Goku can move massively FTL, Death-Battle would counter by saying Superman can move infinitely faster than light because he has no known limits. Lol

It sort of grinds my gears that they used the concept of Superman and what he stands for (having no limits) and basically copy + pasted it into his physical capabilities, which is completely wrong.

There are a myriad of characters in the D.C Universe that are better than Superman in certain areas or just more powerful altogether. Such as any version of Flash being able to reaction or fun infinitely faster than someone whose supposed to have infinite speed (Lol plot-hole), or Wonder Woman, who can't move quicker than Superman but has faster hand combat speed.

Death-Battle really made a mess and kind of blew things out of proportion without realizing Superman does have limits.

[rereboy]

It sort of grinds my gears that they used the concept of Superman and what he stands for (having no limits) and basically copy + pasted it into his physical capabilities, which is completely wrong.

So, what is correct is just see how he is in some comics, focus on the low-end feats and difficulties portrayed there and ignore the rest? Sure, if you say so.

[h0kuten]

It sort of grinds my gears that they used the concept of Superman and what he stands for (having no limits) and basically copy + pasted it into his physical capabilities, which is completely wrong.

So, what is correct is just see how he is in some comics, focus on the low-end feats and difficulties portrayed there and ignore the rest? Sure, if you say so.

Superman believes himself to be faster than Wonder Woman and have faster hand 2 hand combat speed. He asks Batman and Batman presumes to say 'Whose faster, Bruce Lee or Ussain Bolt?', which blatantly shows what I'm trying to say.

Superman has limits.

[Mewzard]

Of course, it all comes down to which Superman you use in the end. There are versions of Superman that Goku would take out no problem...and others that would effortlessly destroy Goku.

Then that brings up an issue: ...Which to choose?

If you choose a weak Superman that Goku beats, Superman fans are within their right to feel the fight was rigged in Goku's favor. If you use the strongest versions of Superman, Goku fans are likely to call out the fight as a massacre and lay claims (arguably fair) that a broken version of Superman was used. The question then becomes what's fair for both sides, because one side is bound to feel a choice that disadvantages their side is unfair.

Do you try to choose versions that mesh up better to prevent arguments of bias? Both at their weakest? Both at their strongest? Both in non-canon side stories? Both at the same age? Both when facing similar circumstances (like another member of their race showing up to fight them)?

You can make countless variants of this fight go any which way. They could have chosen Pre-Crisis Superman, or Superman Prime, or Kingdom Come Superman, or Golden Age Superman, or 1986 Superman post being massively weakened, or when he was Superboy in some continuity.

Just as it could have been made a win for Goku, it could have been turned into a far greater slaughter than just using the modern Superman.

When it comes to Post-Crisis Supes in the last decade, he's been quite powerful. In terms of raw physical strength, Goku's never shown anything even approaching it (from moving the Moon to benchpressing the Earth's equivalent weight for five days straight, Superman has raw strength down). Outside of the Instant Transmission, Goku's never shown lightspeed abilities (which, if you'll recall, means he could circle the Earth 7.5 times in one second), whereas Superman's surpassed it several times over. Goku's been taken out or severely injured by relatively minor things (even in a relatively recent movie), but Superman's endured Supernovas, he flew through Rao (Krypton's Red Son) at beyond the speed of light and survived that (though was drained of his powers for a good year after that stunt due to how even being in their light at planet proximity weakens him)...Superman just has better showings.

He also has some bad ones, but that comes with the territory of many writers over the years. Consistency isn't always easy to maintain in that kind of situation (some years its better than others).

I love Goku...but I also love Superman. I've followed them both for more than half my life now, and Goku's good, Superman's just on another tier...and Superman's not even near the strongest in the DC Universe (without Superman's plot protection, Darkseid could erase Goku from existence in one shot *with an attack that bends and follows foes and can pass through matter*, even ignoring how powerful the New God ruler of Apokolips is, and the Anti-Monitor...oh lord the Anti-Monitor...Superboy Prime literally altered the center of the Universe by moving planets around the Universe so far beyond the speed of light people thought the whole Rann-Thanagar War was started because someone teleported a planet to another star system).

You can argue what-ifs with Goku getting stronger, learning new moves, getting new transformations...but we'll just have to wait and see what Dragon Ball Super gives us.

But as things stand...Goku's current peak was just not up to par with where the modern Post-Crisis Superman has been (though that could change depending up what Super shows us, like I said).

Also, I think of it as Superman has limits, but they're limits that are more a sliding scale over time than a solid wall. He can run into them in a single fight, but since he's constantly absorbing power from the Sun, said limits are gradually being pushed farther away as his body grows stronger.

[rereboy]

It sort of grinds my gears that they used the concept of Superman and what he stands for (having no limits) and basically copy + pasted it into his physical capabilities, which is completely wrong.

So, what is correct is just see how he is in some comics, focus on the low-end feats and difficulties portrayed there and ignore the rest? Sure, if you say so.

Superman believes himself to be faster than Wonder Woman and have faster hand 2 hand combat speed. He asks Batman and Batman presumes to say 'Whose faster, Bruce Lee or Ussain Bolt?', which blatantly shows what I'm trying to say.

Superman has limits.

Perfect example of what I just said. You took a single comic, focused on its very own feats and difficulties, which are low-end in comparison with the all the superman comics, ignored the rest, and reached a conclusion.

Meanwhile, Deathbattle took a general look at all the comics, understood just how inconsistent and variable they are regarding Superman's abilities, how many versions and contradictions there are, understood that basically his abilities have been used as a tool by the writers and he has been as powerful as they want him to be and, instead of focusing on just one single example, one single version, one single moment in time, they looked at the character as he is overall and addressed the core issue regarding his abilities: that they really can reach what amounts to limitless levels, as they have reached plenty of times, because he is a broken character with broken abilities.

[h0kuten]

Actually not, I was listing an example to prove Superman has limits, and absolutely nothing else.

[rereboy]

Actually not, I was listing an example to prove Superman has limits, and absolutely nothing else.

Er... that's exactly what I said. You tried to reach a conclusion just from one example while ignoring the rest. And read my edit above listing the difference between that and what Deathbattle did.

[KaiserNeko]

It sort of grinds my gears that they used the concept of Superman and what he stands for (having no limits) and basically copy + pasted it into his physical capabilities, which is completely wrong.

So, what is correct is just see how he is in some comics, focus on the low-end feats and difficulties portrayed there and ignore the rest? Sure, if you say so.

Superman believes himself to be faster than Wonder Woman and have faster hand 2 hand combat speed. He asks Batman and Batman presumes to say 'Whose faster, Bruce Lee or Ussain Bolt?', which blatantly shows what I'm trying to say.

Superman has limits.

Superman has limits... with good writers.

All-Star Superman was an example of taking Supes to the extreme; they took off his limiters and effectively God-moded him, to the point where he more accurately resembled his Silver Age days. But this was at the expense of his health, and he would soon parish under the weight of his own magnificence. In other incarnations of Superman, such as Justice League and TAS, he is proven to be one of the most physically powerful out of the entire Justice League, but his limits are far more apparent; he struggles with Doomsday, only goes toe to toe with Darkseid after going all out, and constantly is struggling with forces outside of pure physical strength. Hell, post-Crisis Superman's powers are remarkably tamer than those of pre-Crisis, and especially compared to Silver Age.

The fluctuations of his powers aren't always hand-waved or explained in the comics either; there are just flat out holes in the narrative, because the character has been around for over 50+ years and has basically had over a hundred different writers working on him, in movies, series, comics, etc. Each new interpretation of Superman makes him a different character, because of where his limits lie and how he deals with them. Exceptionally good writers will give him limitations, then find ways for him to break past them. Checks and balances that allow him to struggle but still succeed. Poor writers will ignore these limitations (or create completely BS ones to suit their needs) in order to advance the plot.

Of course, Goku has had some seriously ridiculous advancements to his strength as well, in order to move the plot and adapt to new challenges, but we can chock that up to the lackadaisical storytelling of Akira Toriyama. Hell, you might even call it bad writing; I wouldn't necessarily fault you on that, even if the story presented is enjoyable. But we can mark his progress as a product of only one man, and not several different writers with different ideas of how to use the character.

Superman VS. Goku can be an entertaining, enjoyable slugfest, but you have to both understand the characters and understand their backgrounds better. You also have to choose a Superman.

[h0kuten]

Actually not, I was listing an example to prove Superman has limits, and absolutely nothing else.

Er... that's exactly what I said. You tried to reach a conclusion just from one example while ignoring the rest. And read my edit above listing the difference between that and what Deathbattle did.

Ummm no.

Deathbattle argued Superman has infinite strength, infinite speed, infinite everything because that's what Superman stands for.

This is incorrect because I just listed a particular scenario where Superman quite clearly has a finite level flight speed or hand 2 hand speed, making their perspective regarding his physical capabilities inaccurate.

In no way am I using any particular scenario to argue those are Superman's highest limits and ignoring everything both proceeding or preceding, I am simply using it to show and prove that Superman has physical limitations.

Heck, even Superman Prime whom fought Monarch, which resulted in his Armour exploding and causing a Universal busting attack, was knocked out and he would shit all over Current Superman, so if a stronger incarnation of Superman has limits you can surely bet the current one does.

[rereboy]

Actually not, I was listing an example to prove Superman has limits, and absolutely nothing else.

Er... that's exactly what I said. You tried to reach a conclusion just from one example while ignoring the rest. And read my edit above listing the difference between that and what Deathbattle did.

Ummm no.

Deathbattle argued Superman has infinite strength, infinite speed, infinite everything because that's what Superman stands for.

This is incorrect because I just listed a particular scenario where Superman quite clearly has a finite level flight speed or hand 2 hand speed, making their perspective regarding his physical capabilities inaccurate.

In no way am I using any particular scenario to argue those are Superman's highest limits and ignoring everything both proceeding or preceding, I am simply using it to show and prove that Superman has physical limitations.

Heck, even Superman Prime whom fought Monarch, which resulted in his Armour exploding and causing a Universal busting attack, was knocked out and he would shit all over Current Superman, so if a stronger incarnation of Superman has limits you can surely bet the current one does.

Since apparently you didn't read my edit, I'll repeat:

Perfect example of what I just said. You took a single comic, focused on its very own feats and difficulties, which are low-end in comparison with the all the superman comics, ignored the rest, and reached a conclusion.

Meanwhile, Deathbattle took a general look at all the comics, understood just how inconsistent and variable they are regarding Superman's abilities, how many versions and contradictions there are, understood that basically his abilities have been used as a tool by the writers and he has been as powerful as they want him to be and, instead of focusing on just one single example, one single version, one single moment in time, they looked at the character as he is overall and addressed the core issue regarding his abilities: that they really can reach what amounts to limitless levels, as they have reached plenty of times, because he is a broken character with broken abilities.

What you listed was simply an example that is contradicted by a lot of other Superman comics (which are just as valid and official comics) because his abilities are completely filled with contradictions and inconsistencies. And yet, you insist that what you listed proves something because you are simply ignoring all the rest and assuming that your examples have more validity than the others that contradict it. Don't know how to make it clearer to you.

[h0kuten]

He still has limits, D.C. makes this abundantly clear.