Fanfic writers villifying...

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by LightBing » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:59 pm

rereboy wrote:What was being discussed was Yamcha being vilified in fanfiction. Yamcha cheating is not a sufficient moral reason to focus the "evil eye" on him since he does no worse than the person he cheated on did to him. Heck, most of the time he is vilified to make Bulma and Vegeta look better, when, in truth, Bulma was at least as bad as him and Vegeta was a literal genocidal killer.

Also, if you really want to go there, I'll point out I don't engage in absolutes. Saying that cheating = bad person is an equivalency that doesn't conform to the real world with all its factors and intricacies. But I never meant to go there, actually. I was just pointing out that Yamcha being a cheater is a moot point as far as moral justifications go to vilify him in fanfiction.
There's no need to be a moral reason to justify vilifying Yamcha, if someone wrote that he didn't pay a bill on time and justify it to make him worse than Freeza that's their right.
Once again I don't understand why Bulma being as bad or worst than him is an argument for people not vilifying him.

I was just pointing out in-universe scummy things he did that might inspire people to write such a story.

Bad person is an easy and wide term, I shouldn't have used it. But you get what I meant, they both did crappy things.
Dbzfan94 wrote:Except there is. There's nothing implying that Yamcha would cheat, in fact implies the opposite when 1) Yamcha wanted to get married 2) toriyama mentioned in a different interview that he's still shy around girls and got fired from an escort/bodyguard job because of it. Both interviews cannot be true.

Back to the Bulma point, she'd cry and moan about Yamcha cheating when girls flirted with him and/or he so much as looked at someone. Despite flirting with every handsome guy she sees and expresses looking for an upgrade. Bulma's super insecure, and insane jealous streaks really discredit her point.
Yet he never got married and wanting to do it doesn't make you a saint otherwise divorce wouldn't exist. I don't remember that interview could you please link it?

I don't remember Bulma ever lying in such context, she might exaggerate stuff but she would never lie and that's present Bulma. Future Bulma the one who mentioned Yamcha cheating had lost all those childish traits and she wouldn't bad-mouth someone who died.

I maintain my stance there's no contradiction. The best argument is that after they got together their relationship was barely touched any more.

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:27 pm

LightBing wrote:I don't remember that interview could you please link it?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/character-fates/

here you go.

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:32 pm

LightBing wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
LightBing wrote:Yamcha did start as a villain he was going to let Goku, Oolong and Bulma die in the desert. That's one good reason. Another is him cheating on Bulma.
There's some seeds to develop that perspective.

Of course the point of one being the writer is to make anything you want happen, if people want to hate on Yamcha or any other character it's their right. If it's well done now that's another story.
Except he didn’t cheat on Bulma. The only persons wors we have is Trunks. And Bulma exaggerating and turning things into something they weren’t is definitely up her alley.
Yeah I don't like that at all, it's fine to argue that characters might not be truthful but in this case it's straightforward. The author is telling us what happened it's as simple as that. You can't have that type of intrigue in this story and Mr.Toriyama for sure doesn't care about it.

Anyway here you go from this interview: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ru-furuya/

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?
That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; Yamcha’s a cheater.” (laughs)

Yeah, he's a cheater.
Of course he would say that. The entire point of Yamcha cheating on Bulma was make fans (at the time) more accepting of Bulma x Vegeta.

So why would he make it so fans become unsure again... in order to push the narrative, he as to keep going with the character assassination of Yamcha he wrote in.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:40 pm

LightBing wrote:
rereboy wrote:What was being discussed was Yamcha being vilified in fanfiction. Yamcha cheating is not a sufficient moral reason to focus the "evil eye" on him since he does no worse than the person he cheated on did to him. Heck, most of the time he is vilified to make Bulma and Vegeta look better, when, in truth, Bulma was at least as bad as him and Vegeta was a literal genocidal killer.

Also, if you really want to go there, I'll point out I don't engage in absolutes. Saying that cheating = bad person is an equivalency that doesn't conform to the real world with all its factors and intricacies. But I never meant to go there, actually. I was just pointing out that Yamcha being a cheater is a moot point as far as moral justifications go to vilify him in fanfiction.
There's no need to be a moral reason to justify vilifying Yamcha, if someone wrote that he didn't pay a bill on time and justify it to make him worse than Freeza that's their right.
Once again I don't understand why Bulma being as bad or worst than him is an argument for people not vilifying him.

I was just pointing out in-universe scummy things he did that might inspire people to write such a story.

Bad person is an easy and wide term, I shouldn't have used it. But you get what I meant, they both did crappy things.
Dbzfan94 wrote:Except there is. There's nothing implying that Yamcha would cheat, in fact implies the opposite when 1) Yamcha wanted to get married 2) toriyama mentioned in a different interview that he's still shy around girls and got fired from an escort/bodyguard job because of it. Both interviews cannot be true.

Back to the Bulma point, she'd cry and moan about Yamcha cheating when girls flirted with him and/or he so much as looked at someone. Despite flirting with every handsome guy she sees and expresses looking for an upgrade. Bulma's super insecure, and insane jealous streaks really discredit her point.
Yet he never got married and wanting to do it doesn't make you a saint otherwise divorce wouldn't exist. I don't remember that interview could you please link it?

I don't remember Bulma ever lying in such context, she might exaggerate stuff but she would never lie and that's present Bulma. Future Bulma the one who mentioned Yamcha cheating had lost all those childish traits and she wouldn't bad-mouth someone who died.

I maintain my stance there's no contradiction. The best argument is that after they got together their relationship was barely touched any more.
How do you know future Bulma doesn't have those traits anymore? Bulma has had childish traits visible all throughout even Namek... and when she stopped, it was again to push Bulma x Vegeta (which becomes different than their relationship in the future over time). We've also seen far more abusive traits from her than Yamcha.

But this is about the villyfing of Yamcha... and not really Bulma. I suppose it is a fanfic writer's right to vilify him if they want to. But I will always maintain that it is a disgusting method to make VegeBul pairing look good. If you need to write a character that out of character to make it so the pairing looks good... then the pairing has failed in my eyes because it makes it seem that it cannot be as good of a pairing without it... which I can at least say Toriyama didn't rely on except for in the initial setup.

That might have been confusing... but I'm in a hurry. :D
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by rereboy » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:50 am

LightBing wrote: There's no need to be a moral reason to justify vilifying Yamcha, if someone wrote that he didn't pay a bill on time and justify it to make him worse than Freeza that's their right.
Er... No one is trying to argue that they can't do whatever they please and write whatever they want. What was being argued is that we might disagree with that option because it doesn't make much sense (morally speaking, going from what is present in the series) to focus on Yamcha like that.
Once again I don't understand why Bulma being as bad or worst than him is an argument for people not vilifying him.
Because context matters and in this case the context makes it so that focusing on Yamcha to vilify him doesn't make much sense (morally speaking).
I was just pointing out in-universe scummy things he did that might inspire people to write such a story.
It would only make some sense if we ignore the context.

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:30 am

That's just the way things are. Yamcha was already a joke before TFS came along. And with TFS being around for 10 years this year, an entire DBZ generation grew up knowing Yamcha not only from the manga and anime, but also from DBZA. Then you throw in the ribbing Yamcha gets in games that get international releases, in official models, and even the baseball episode in Super, and yeah, things can get rough for the poor guy.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Olympian » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:36 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Why is this so?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... DeathEater
Fangirls.
LightBing wrote: There's no need to be a moral reason to justify vilifying Yamcha, if someone wrote that he didn't pay a bill on time and justify it to make him worse than Freeza that's their right.
Once again I don't understand why Bulma being as bad or worst than him is an argument for people not vilifying him.

I was just pointing out in-universe scummy things he did that might inspire people to write such a story.
Here`s why it doesn`t work and can only be classified as OCC.

While Yamcha started out as an antagonist who would kill if needed be (he already had a rep according to Oolong) he had the quickest turn as soon his actions meant saving the world even if he lost the wish he desired, which is what happened. Not only that but these fics in order to work they work in the made-up context that Bulma is the abused victim of the relationship - of which we know it`s never been the case, even now with Vegeta and the later comes along like a white knight to save her out of it.

Bulma is abusive. She always was. That`s how Toryama wrote her in relationships. She`s also a manipulator, you can even see that with Vegeta in Super segments. She`s the biggest flirt of the whole cast by a thousand miles. That`s also how Toryama wrote her. She will do anything, including flashing her body to an old pervert to get what she wants.

That is Bulma together with her good qualities but the fics simply focus on her good to make it work. Likewise for Vegeta. You can`t seriously read one when he shows up like a Fabio sensing "the evil" in Yamcha because it`s the biggest pile of crap you can think of. The guy who hit his own son to let a villain nearly destroy everything and in the end didn`t even apologize before he left - it had to be Yamcha being the bigger man and speak on his behalf is the one doing he act. Yea`makes sense.

Can they write it? Sure, you can write anything in fanfics but let`s not pretend they make sense even within the scope of what Yamcha did in his first arc because it only works if you count that and throw out what Bulma and Vegeta have done and how the qualities relate with him.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Kanassa » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:19 pm

Olympian wrote:You can`t seriously read one when he shows up like a Fabio sensing "the evil" in Yamcha because it`s the biggest pile of crap you can think of.
Ya can't hold out on me, man. I need links. I NEED DA CRINGE!
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:35 pm

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9045985/6/Pain-is-pleasure

You are welcome. Also its "Great Evil" not just "The Evil". LOL
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Olympian » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:09 pm

Of course, I stand corrected.
Ki Breaker wrote:

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by GamerSkull » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:34 am

Yeah, I can't imagine Vegeta being portrayed as a white night and Yamcha being portrayed as a rapist and an abuser.

Neither of those fit either character. Maybe I should get drunk and read some of these.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:26 pm

GamerSkull wrote:Yeah, I can't imagine Vegeta being portrayed as a white night and Yamcha being portrayed as a rapist and an abuser.

Neither of those fit either character. Maybe I should get drunk and read some of these.
You need not look further then the standard DB fanbase where Yamcha is the worst guy ever but Vegeta is the barely reformed mass murdering psychopath who, up until GT and Super, was an antagonist to the good guys for half of his appearances and spent the vast majority of the other half being a massive hindrance.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by GamerSkull » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:32 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:Yeah, I can't imagine Vegeta being portrayed as a white night and Yamcha being portrayed as a rapist and an abuser.

Neither of those fit either character. Maybe I should get drunk and read some of these.
You need not look further then the standard DB fanbase where Yamcha is the worst guy ever but Vegeta is the barely reformed mass murdering psychopath who, up until GT and Super, was an antagonist to the good guys for half of his appearances and spent the vast majority of the other half being a massive hindrance.
Yeah, Vegeta used to be my favorite character but has since gone down so much after my recent re-watchings of the series once I got older. I still really love his character in the Saiyan and Namek arcs and that is the reason he is still within my Top 10 but everything after that seems to go downhill for the character very fast.

He seems to make things worse for everyone most of the time and can be very douchy... not to mention his background as a genocidal murderer.

Yamcha's only crime is that he's the weakest member of the strongest team. And sure, he "cheated" on Bulma... a person who has repeatedly exhibited abusive traits in the past.

So this entire thing about Vegeta being this amazing paragon of virtue and Yamcha being an abusive person in fanfics makes me feel like some people didn't pay attention to the series aside from their favorite pairings (which is actually so barely touched upon that I have no idea how these people must have managed). Especially given that Yamcha and Bulma seem to be in a perfectly amicable friendship even to this day.

More to the point... yeah, the fanbase also seems to love Vegeta and shit on Yamcha but the latter has never been so disgustingly portrayed as a rapist or an abuser by the general fanbase. It's just insulting.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:20 am

Yeah. Character bashing is a bad habit for some fanfic writers. And making characters sorely out of character in general too.

Its kind of why I stick to crossover stories. Far less chance of those happening. Along with slash pairings. One I saw, had Goku and Bra as a pairing (I view slash as any pairing that has no business being there, fyi).

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by GamerSkull » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:58 am

Jackalope89 wrote:Yeah. Character bashing is a bad habit for some fanfic writers. And making characters sorely out of character in general too.

Its kind of why I stick to crossover stories. Far less chance of those happening. Along with slash pairings. One I saw, had Goku and Bra as a pairing (I view slash as any pairing that has no business being there, fyi).
It just feels insulting to me... especially since I'm a fan of the character, but I'm in the minority I guess.

Having to bash a character to such a degree to make a relationship seem better, than it doesn't really help the relationship itself as it means you can't have it stand on its own.

Now that I think about it... I wonder if there are any good pro-Yamcha stories out there? I'll never get it in any official stories so I need that wish fulfillment. :lol:
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:41 am

GamerSkull wrote: Now that I think about it... I wonder if there are any good pro-Yamcha stories out there? I'll never get it in any official stories so I need that wish fulfillment. :lol:
There is DBZ Elsewhere, which is a comic rather than simply text. There is a thread for it here in this subforum.

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:26 am

GamerSkull wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:Yeah. Character bashing is a bad habit for some fanfic writers. And making characters sorely out of character in general too.

Its kind of why I stick to crossover stories. Far less chance of those happening. Along with slash pairings. One I saw, had Goku and Bra as a pairing (I view slash as any pairing that has no business being there, fyi).
It just feels insulting to me... especially since I'm a fan of the character, but I'm in the minority I guess.

Having to bash a character to such a degree to make a relationship seem better, than it doesn't really help the relationship itself as it means you can't have it stand on its own.

Now that I think about it... I wonder if there are any good pro-Yamcha stories out there? I'll never get it in any official stories so I need that wish fulfillment. :lol:
There's a four chapter fic I did where Yamcha & Ox-King have to make the most delicious dish on Earth so Beerus doesn't blow it up in BoG. In this version, Goku doesn't make it in time to suggest using the DBs to find the SSGod so Yamcha makes a bet with Beerus after his plan with Oolong backfired horribly.

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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by Olympian » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:20 am

I recall some old fanfics of Trunks sometimes training with "uncle Yamcha" and noticing that while his mother loved her father dearly, there was something in her eye when his name came around. It wasn`t that she loved him but that she still had love for him in her.

It starred an adult Trunks looking at Yamcha and going back the to the days where he would be trained in his moves and have fun when he was a kid. I don`t recall a single character coming off bad in it. If I can find it again I`ll post it here.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by GamerSkull » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:25 pm

Those sound really cool. :D

I might actually set aside time and read some of them this weekend. It's awesome to see interesting scenarios devised by fans as long as they fit the characters.
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Re: Fanfic writers villifying...

Post by TheGodfather93 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:45 pm

Sounds about right. One of the reasons I stopped reading Vegeta/Bulma fics that took place during those three fateful years is because of how much writers loved to shit on Yamcha and make him come across as a bad guy. That, and Vegeta being OOC in these fics by virtue of being too damn nice and caring. Vegeta was an asshole for the vast majority of the Android arc, and during this time clearly didn't give two shits about Bulma and Trunks.

Another character who gets bashed almost as much as Yamcha in fanfiction is Chi-Chi, mainly from the hardcore Gohan fanboys who want to live out their power fantasies through him, and blame Chi-Chi for "ruining" him. It's rather sad.
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