Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:53 am

While some people may find this not such a big deal, It is a problem for me and many people. When pairing Verses in Fanfiction, accurate scaling can be a hindrance to story and plot. That much can be ascertained by the amount of Fics that have gone nowhere fast. Whether that be from lack of writing capabilities or unrealistic scaling, that remains as a constant in the community. I can't personally fault novice writers for that in good grace. What I can fault writers for is blatantly saying things along the lines of "Dragonball is too powerful for my verse so I am going to nerf them with poor reasoning other than I want to." Many of those same writers go on to nerf them in ways that make absolutely zero sense in context and story. I am not going to go into intent behind stories as I can only speculate the intent unless it was written by the author that He/She holds no respect for the Dragonball series. I am not including ones that say they are holding back.

Examples of this include but are not limited to:
Salem from Rwby making a collar that suppresses Zamasu's (In Goku's body after getting a large zenkai) God Ki shortly after finding him.
Gohan from the cell saga being wall level and losing to building level and lower enemies consistently over multiple days (Even after rest) because he was tired.
Hagoromo Otsutsuki Sealing away Broly for no explainable reason.
Out and out saying Dragonball characters lose their Ki all togather.
Super Saiyan blue Goku being only Light speed because of Dyspo and other downplays to have one verse's character beat SSB Goku when Logic and scaling proves Goku highly superior.
There are more but that's enough for now. I am sure you get the point.

While I do not like the idea of nerfing in general, I can understand why one might do so. If it is good enough to the story than I won't instantly drop the story. That story will get a negative start for me though. I think in general if one thing you like is proven superior to another thing and when a fictional work involves both of those things and the superior thing has to be taken bow to the inferior thin's level solely on the merits that the inferior thing is inferior, It gets annoying.

Now I am no Seth The Programmer, Just a Robot, Geekdom 101, Broku or Chuck the cyber cuck when it comes to information and scaling on Dragonball, but I do tend to scale many verses. So when blatant LAZY nerfs for the sake of nerfing get thrown around in high quantity on Fanfiction.net, I do get rather irritated and rightly so.

Ok enough of the rant. Let me address some common arguments.

1. If you don't like it, Make your own and stop complaining.

A:Me making my own Fiction does not magically somehow make the nerf go away or people stop calling you out on it. It is just you trying to push away criticism and not take responsibility.

2.If you don't like it, don't read it.

A:See 1. If you put out a product on a public platform, expect that people will call you out on it's flaws (Whatever they may be). You telling me to not read it and go away is childish at best. Your work is out there and no amount of you telling me to go away will somehow make your work less trash in our eyes.

3.This is my story and I can do whatever I want in it.

A: Correct. You absolutely can do whatever you want in any of your stories and no one can, should or will stop you for it. (Unless it somehow violates the law and the authorities somehow apprehend you for it) Just know that once you double down when shown reasonable evidence to the contrary of your story, It makes you look disingenuous and like an ass.

4. In retaliation to reviews Author makes Ad hominem attacks and has a superiority complex.
(Some authors like to make personal attacks against other authors based on their reviews of their story. Jim reviews Sally's story about DBZ and Legend of Korra where Korra beats Bog arc Goku who is not holding back because Goku is for no reason wall level. Jim tells Sally that based off of what is known about Bog arc Goku that Goku is Multi Galaxy to Universal depending on what scaling you use. Sally then responds with some personal attack about Jim. This happens a lot more often than you would think)

A: Attacking my person or my own stories does not make your mistakes somehow absolved.

5. You stated nerfing but what about high balling Dragonball characters in fiction? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

A:While that seems like a good point at first glance it is merely a way to deflect from the stiuation. The problem here is nerfing and that is whatt I am talking about. Changing the topic will not change anything.

6.Dragonball is not the strongest verse out there. There are many fictional verses that beat it at it's tops. What do you say to that?

A:True but what does that have to do with my situation.

7.It's just fiction chill out. It doesn't matter.

A: While in the most basic sense you are quite correct, It has absolutely no effect on the real world as we know it. If someone applied that argument to everyone's hobbies and pastimes then there wouldn't be much sense in any fun. Let some people be enthusiastic about things they like that aren't destructive. It's not hurting anyone, Besides some people's feelings but it's the internet not a hugbox.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12970
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:23 am

I find that it's always best to just focus on the character personalities when I write crossover work. I've been working on a Gokuu versus Superman fan fic for years and while I do have Gokuu dominate the fight the real point of the story is always on how the Clark character reacts to such a different kind of person with so much power.
She/Her | 29 | Bisexual | Certified Dragon Ball Fangirl since October 1998

Dbzfan94
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5201
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:30 am

what is "wall level?"

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:54 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:what is "wall level?"
It is a tier in scaling and vs battles. It translates to a character's Ap (Attack potency) being enough to destroy a wall and/or damage other things with wall level durability.
It is putting out about 15 Kilojoules to 0.005 Tons of force in an attack.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5876
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:59 pm

We know that Dyspo is faster than light speed, but not how much faster. In my opinion that means that he is faster than light in his base form, and it is stated that his light bullet technique increases his speed thousands of times, and his maximum speed mode is even faster than that. So at the very least he should be several thousand times faster than the speed of light. But I can see someone interpreting that differently.

As for being sealed up, we know that weaker characters can do that to stronger characters with the Mafuba, so I don't really see the problem there.

Anyway, this is a common thing: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... pPowerSeep
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:03 pm

JulieYBM wrote:I find that it's always best to just focus on the character personalities when I write crossover work. I've been working on a Gokuu versus Superman fan fic for years and while I do have Gokuu dominate the fight the real point of the story is always on how the Clark character reacts to such a different kind of person with so much power.
Asolutely. I was not saying to not make crossovers with Dbz. I was more addressing lazy nerfing for no other reason than nerfing. In fact there are some great crossovers with insane power differences between Dbz and the verse that are not just some wank of Dbz. Personally if a story has substance and well fleshed out plot and involves Dbz, I really don't care if there is little fighting.

As to your fic, It would be very interesting to Clark. Here is Goku, someone who only cares about getting stronger and the people he loves (Of course he cares for his planet and protecting people but not to the extent or methods of superman)coming along out of wherever you had him come from. Clark would be puzzled by him at first, I mean he is not your run of the mill superhero. What is the name of your fic if it is out? From your description it sounds cool.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:09 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:We know that Dyspo is faster than light speed, but not how much faster. In my opinion that means that he is faster than light in his base form, and it is stated that his light bullet technique increases his speed thousands of times, and his maximum speed mode is even faster than that. So at the very least he should be several thousand times faster than the speed of light. But I can see someone interpreting that differently.

As for being sealed up, we know that weaker characters can do that to stronger characters with the Mafuba, so I don't really see the problem there.

Anyway, this is a common thing: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... pPowerSeep
For the sealing you are correct about the mafuba, BUT this is not the mafuba. Let us take some time to remember the Gaara and Madara attempt at sealing. Madara who is much weaker than broly busted out of Gaara's sealing like it was easy in the ninja war. They are way closer in power than Hagoromo and Broly who is at least multi solar system level to galaxy depending on how you scale him. Since it is established that you can power out of seals and a character who is of closer power to the other busted out of one casually, I find it hard to believe that someone millions to billions of times stronger than the other can be sealed.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
TheGodfather93
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:55 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by TheGodfather93 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:33 pm

Honestly, I don't think DBZ mixes well with a lot of other anime/manga when it comes to battle-oriented crossover fanfiction. The power disparity is often too large, and while nerfing or buffing certain characters might make for a more compelling story, I can definitely see how it would annoy people. If writing for this fandom has taught me anything, it's that many people care A LOT about power-scaling. It's almost scary sometimes.

With that being said, I'm thinking about writing a DBZ x My Hero Academia crossover sometime after I finish my current fic, in which Gohan goes to UA (basically superhero high school for those unaware), because the concept fascinates me too much. What I'm struggling with is trying to decide just how powerful to make Gohan. I don't know whether to let him be himself and basically oneshot everyone he comes across, or somehow restrict his power so that there can be actual drama and tension.
If you have the time and are interested, please consider checking out my fanfiction account at https://www.fanfiction.net/~thegodfather93

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:48 pm

TheGodfather93 wrote:Honestly, I don't think DBZ mixes well with a lot of other anime/manga when it comes to battle-oriented crossover fanfiction. The power disparity is often too large, and while nerfing or buffing certain characters might make for a more compelling story, I can definitely see how it would annoy people. If writing for this fandom has taught me anything, it's that many people care A LOT about power-scaling. It's almost scary sometimes.

With that being said, I'm thinking about writing a DBZ x My Hero Academia crossover sometime after I finish my current fic, in which Gohan goes to UA (basically superhero high school for those unaware), because the concept fascinates me too much. What I'm struggling with is trying to decide just how powerful to make Gohan. I don't know whether to let him be himself and basically oneshot everyone he comes across, or somehow restrict his power so that there can be actual drama and tension.
Yeah when you mix battle oriented verses where one far outclasses the other in general and have battles it definitely can become a problem. Yeah that sounds like a pretty cool idea for a story. I would love to check it out.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5876
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:49 pm

ss2Miqote wrote:For the sealing you are correct about the mafuba, BUT this is not the mafuba. Let us take some time to remember the Gaara and Madara attempt at sealing. Madara who is much weaker than broly busted out of Gaara's sealing like it was easy in the ninja war. They are way closer in power than Hagoromo and Broly who is at least multi solar system level to galaxy depending on how you scale him. Since it is established that you can power out of seals and a character who is of closer power to the other busted out of one casually, I find it hard to believe that someone millions to billions of times stronger than the other can be sealed.
Well I am not a Naruto expert so I don't know all of the details but you might be able to justify it if he was taken completely by surprise and didn't realize what was happening until it was too late.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:13 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
ss2Miqote wrote:For the sealing you are correct about the mafuba, BUT this is not the mafuba. Let us take some time to remember the Gaara and Madara attempt at sealing. Madara who is much weaker than broly busted out of Gaara's sealing like it was easy in the ninja war. They are way closer in power than Hagoromo and Broly who is at least multi solar system level to galaxy depending on how you scale him. Since it is established that you can power out of seals and a character who is of closer power to the other busted out of one casually, I find it hard to believe that someone millions to billions of times stronger than the other can be sealed.
Well I am not a Naruto expert so I don't know all of the details but you might be able to justify it if he was taken completely by surprise and didn't realize what was happening until it was too late.
Fair enough.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
Pantalones
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1429
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:30 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Pantalones » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:38 pm

I really wouldn't mind seeing "so-and-so high level magic user puts a seal on the characters' ki so they're only as strong as their pure physical strength rather than being able to amplify it far beyond that" as a balancing factor. It's not like this would drop DBZ characters down to normal human levels or anything, since even their non-ki-enhanced strength is way beyond that level (see beginning-of-DB Goku... and he's only gotten stronger since then), but it would balance things out somewhat when compared to series where nobody can destroy planets.

Of course, they'd have to leave Freeza out of a story like that -- his natural strength alone is absolutely insane and considering he had no real training whatsoever, sealing his ki would probably not weaken him that much physically, he just wouldn't be shooting Death Beams and such all over the place anymore.
With that being said, I'm thinking about writing a DBZ x My Hero Academia crossover sometime after I finish my current fic, in which Gohan goes to UA (basically superhero high school for those unaware), because the concept fascinates me too much. What I'm struggling with is trying to decide just how powerful to make Gohan. I don't know whether to let him be himself and basically oneshot everyone he comes across, or somehow restrict his power so that there can be actual drama and tension.
In this situation, there's always the "Gohan has to hold back to avoid letting the others know just how disproportionately strong he is" option. I imagine it being kinda like the Gohan-in-high-school episodes, but with him being compared to less-superhuman-than-Gohan-but-still-strong characters now rather than ordinary PL 5 humans. People might get the idea that Saiyaman/Gohan just has the power to shrug off damage or something (Botamo style?), and can't actually fight that well, since he'd be holding back his offensive power/speed/etc. to not stand out but still not really getting hurt no matter what hits him. And then everyone gets exaggerated anime freak-out faces when Gohan ends up in a situation where he's forced to reveal his true power/speed.

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:13 pm

JulieYBM wrote:I find that it's always best to just focus on the character personalities when I write crossover work. I've been working on a Gokuu versus Superman fan fic for years and while I do have Gokuu dominate the fight the real point of the story is always on how the Clark character reacts to such a different kind of person with so much power.
Could you link what you've done so far for that? It sounds quite interesting.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12970
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:12 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:I find that it's always best to just focus on the character personalities when I write crossover work. I've been working on a Gokuu versus Superman fan fic for years and while I do have Gokuu dominate the fight the real point of the story is always on how the Clark character reacts to such a different kind of person with so much power.
Could you link what you've done so far for that? It sounds quite interesting.
I decided to write the back half first. Think of it like six half hour episodes. I wrote it to take place just after Super #27. I'm not happy with the first two paragraphs so far, but think I got my criticism of TV and film Superman across well by portraying him as a Millenial being suffocated by the curse of his Babyboomer parents' upbringing. I haven't revised this text in a few months so let me know if you have any questions. I've plotted out #1-3, so let me know if there's a gap missing because I forgot to recap info.
She/Her | 29 | Bisexual | Certified Dragon Ball Fangirl since October 1998

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:32 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
I decided to write the back half first. Think of it like six half hour episodes. I wrote it to take place just after Super #27. I'm not happy with the first two paragraphs so far, but think I got my criticism of TV and film Superman across well by portraying him as a Millenial being suffocated by the curse of his Babyboomer parents' upbringing. I haven't revised this text in a few months so let me know if you have any questions. I've plotted out #1-3, so let me know if there's a gap missing because I forgot to recap info.

Pretty good. it was a interesting read.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
Jackalope89
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 908
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:14 pm

On the flipside, I have also seen people tackle crossovers hyping the Dragon Ball character, while having absolutely no clue about the character(s) that they crossover with.

The worst offenders of any crossover, in my opinion, are those that say they use, say, Goku, and then make the story a harem. With the only part resembling Goku is his ability to transform.

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:32 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:On the flipside, I have also seen people tackle crossovers hyping the Dragon Ball character, while having absolutely no clue about the character(s) that they crossover with.

The worst offenders of any crossover, in my opinion, are those that say they use, say, Goku, and then make the story a harem. With the only part resembling Goku is his ability to transform.
Yes those stories are cancer. Highballing a character for no reason is just as bad in my book. If you take away a character's character and don't replace it with something substantial it destroys the story. You might have well made a oc.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5876
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:41 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:On the flipside, I have also seen people tackle crossovers hyping the Dragon Ball character, while having absolutely no clue about the character(s) that they crossover with.

The worst offenders of any crossover, in my opinion, are those that say they use, say, Goku, and then make the story a harem. With the only part resembling Goku is his ability to transform.
Goku probably would think a harem is a type of food.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Jackalope89
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 908
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:02 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:On the flipside, I have also seen people tackle crossovers hyping the Dragon Ball character, while having absolutely no clue about the character(s) that they crossover with.

The worst offenders of any crossover, in my opinion, are those that say they use, say, Goku, and then make the story a harem. With the only part resembling Goku is his ability to transform.
Goku probably would think a harem is a type of food.
You'd think, but nope. The Goku they have, well, can't even really call him "Goku" with what they do with him. :problem:

User avatar
ss2Miqote
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Lazy nerfing of Dragonball in Fanfiction crossovers

Post by ss2Miqote » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:54 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:On the flipside, I have also seen people tackle crossovers hyping the Dragon Ball character, while having absolutely no clue about the character(s) that they crossover with.

The worst offenders of any crossover, in my opinion, are those that say they use, say, Goku, and then make the story a harem. With the only part resembling Goku is his ability to transform.
Goku probably would think a harem is a type of food.

Hahahahahaha just like when chi chi trapped him in a marriage. Just this time it's either underaged girls or battle women.
Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.
Nikola Tesla

Post Reply