A heartwarming Super review

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Mister_Popo
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A heartwarming Super review

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm

Super has long been a topic of controversy within the fandom.
Although everyone has a right to their own opinion, it is somewhere meaningful that Chris Stuckman, one of the featured YouTube film-critics, gave Super very recently a good review. If something is really bad in his opinion, he always says so, without a word. It was heartwarming in my eyes that, in the storm of hatred that Super still had to deal with, that he still gave the show a very favorable B + score. He did indicate the negative aspects that we know, such as the retellings and some inconsistencies (including power scaling), but he also indicated that he could tolerate this in view of the high general entertainment value.

He indicates that DBZ was even better, but that the show can keep pace with the original DB series. Certainly after having come through the first 20/30 episodes, it became much better in his opinion. He had first stopped looking after those first episodes, he indicated to have been demotivated, but now to be happy that he saw the piece afterwards. He greatly appreciated the Zamasu arc but especially the Tournament of Power.

Could it be that some opinions are mainly based on the indeed 20-30 lesser starting episodes? That some people just couldn't turn their cart afterwards, and didn't give the show a second chance because of that prejudice, perhaps partly wrongly?

It's still all a matter of taste. We must however take notice, this man actually knows something about film and anime.

The full review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjyQWjxObT0

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by Tylerman29 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:58 pm

I have been watching his reviews for a long time, so I do value his opinions pretty highly on films. Just not on Dragon Ball. If you watch his Z review, he is a fairly casual fan that really is only concerned with the Z dub he grew up with. Which is fine, he can like what he likes. I just don't think he is looking at it the same way a lot of us are.

Initially I liked Super a lot, having similar thoughts to him in this review. Although, after sitting on my thoughts on the show for the past year, and revisiting the older series subbed (including GT), I find myself souring on Super drastically. I can no longer look past the nonsensical power scaling, mediocre writing, regressed character development, production problems, and lackluster transformations that seem to have no other purpose than to sell new merch. Everything just feels so hollow in Super..I don't feel the same passion and love in the production.
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DB, Z, and GT in JP are my "holy trinity".
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SSJ4 > Any transformation in Super.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:22 pm

Tylerman29 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:58 pm
I have been watching his reviews for a long time, so I do value his opinions pretty highly on films. Just not on Dragon Ball. If you watch his Z review, he is a fairly casual fan that really is only concerned with the Z dub he grew up with. Which is fine, he can like what he likes. I just don't think he is looking at it the same way a lot of us are.

Initially I liked Super a lot, having similar thoughts to him in this review. Although, after sitting on my thoughts on the show for the past year, and revisiting the older series subbed (including GT), I find myself souring on Super drastically. I can no longer look past the nonsensical power scaling, mediocre writing, regressed character development, production problems, and lackluster transformations that seem to have no other purpose than to sell new merch. Everything just feels so hollow in Super..I don't feel the same passion and love in the production.


If you are emotionally invested in something and expect something only to suffice when it's very very good: in that case it's in a sense a normal reaction you think it's bad when it's only 'very good' or 'good'.
In your perspective it was bad, because it didn't met the very high standards you had set for it personally.
Re-analyzed while taking some more distance, that opinion may not have been entirely justified because of that reason.
When you go searching for the flaws, you'll find them and you can blow them up all you want, but that doesn't say the show in general is bad, because every show has its flaws at the end.
A more objective expert like Stuckman can however help in this case to somehow place things in their right context.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:25 pm

I don't mind the first arc of Super. It's the second which not surprisingly was based on a bad movie, that was the worst part
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:26 pm

I just watched that review yesterday, yes he brings up some very good points. I especially agree when he says that the Future Trunks arc was unique because it's the first time Goku and Vegeta were truly challenged in DBS. Before that the stakes were never that high, but the Future Trunks arc increased the tension dramatically. Not only because the Future timeline did not have End of Z plot armor, but also because Zamasu and Black truly felt like an unstoppable duo, since one of them was invincible, while the other possessed unconceivable strength and potential. Indeed, throughout the arc the protagonists were getting pummelled, and they did not defeat Zamasu. They were outplayed at every turn and had to rely on the intervention of the literal God of everything, who erased the entire multiverse to stop Zamasu. Also I appreciate that he said Zamasu was a very original character, I agree with him, and I would add that it was brilliant that they devoted a lot of episodes to showing his fall from grace.

The only criticism I have is that he complained about Zamasu coming back in episode 67. I really don't see why some people complain about that idea. Sure, the execution could've been a lot better, but we knew that Zamasu was immortal, and not only that, but that he was granted invincibility by the ultimate artifacts of the Gods. It was clear that he would never be defeated so easily, that he wasn't an enemy who would just stay dead after being blown to smithereens. Especially since it was never said that Zamasu lost his immortal soul, only that his physical regeneration was disrupted due to his half-mortal body. So it would've actually been a major plothole if Trunks somehow killed Zamasu and nothing happened with his immortal soul.
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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:26 pm
The only criticism I have is that he complained about Zamasu coming back in episode 67. I really don't see why some people complain about that idea. Sure, the execution could've been a lot better, but we knew that Zamasu was immortal, and not only that, but that he was granted invincibility by the ultimate artifacts of the Gods. It was clear that he would never be defeated so easily, that he wasn't an enemy who would just stay dead after being blown to smithereens. Especially since it was never said that Zamasu lost his immortal soul, only that his physical regeneration was disrupted due to his half-mortal body. So it would've actually been a major plothole if Trunks somehow killed Zamasu and nothing happened with his immortal soul.
Because it's the very definition of an anti-climax. Given everything it took to defeat him the first time, I'd hardly call it an easy defeat.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:35 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:26 pm
The only criticism I have is that he complained about Zamasu coming back in episode 67. I really don't see why some people complain about that idea. Sure, the execution could've been a lot better, but we knew that Zamasu was immortal, and not only that, but that he was granted invincibility by the ultimate artifacts of the Gods. It was clear that he would never be defeated so easily, that he wasn't an enemy who would just stay dead after being blown to smithereens. Especially since it was never said that Zamasu lost his immortal soul, only that his physical regeneration was disrupted due to his half-mortal body. So it would've actually been a major plothole if Trunks somehow killed Zamasu and nothing happened with his immortal soul.
Because it's the very definition of an anti-climax. Given everything it took to defeat him the first time, I'd hardly call it an easy defeat.
What's the problem with an anti-climax? If anything, it's satisfying that for once the work of a villain couldn't be undone by the Dragon Balls.
"Oh I've learned a lesson. Mortals are even more dangerous than I thought. Know this...Goku...I will never forget you."

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:19 pm

Stuckman actually gives lots of poor things a pass, especially when they're not targetted to him. His Book of Henry review being a big example of that.

I'm glad he enjoyed Super but I think he's overlooking its bigger flaws for the sake of being positive. A B+ is way too high a grade for Super. A B+ is what I'd give the 22nd Budokau Arc and that's one of my favorite arcs.
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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by Zamasu Black » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:22 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:19 pm
A B+ is way too high a grade for Super. A B+ is what I'd give the 22nd Budokau Arc and that's one of my favorite arcs.
The Tournament of Power was better than that Tournament though and any Tournament in OG Dragon Ball.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:26 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:49 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:35 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:26 pm
The only criticism I have is that he complained about Zamasu coming back in episode 67. I really don't see why some people complain about that idea. Sure, the execution could've been a lot better, but we knew that Zamasu was immortal, and not only that, but that he was granted invincibility by the ultimate artifacts of the Gods. It was clear that he would never be defeated so easily, that he wasn't an enemy who would just stay dead after being blown to smithereens. Especially since it was never said that Zamasu lost his immortal soul, only that his physical regeneration was disrupted due to his half-mortal body. So it would've actually been a major plothole if Trunks somehow killed Zamasu and nothing happened with his immortal soul.
Because it's the very definition of an anti-climax. Given everything it took to defeat him the first time, I'd hardly call it an easy defeat.
What's the problem with an anti-climax? If anything, it's satisfying that for once the work of a villain couldn't be undone by the Dragon Balls.
That you've already shot your wad.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:22 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:19 pm
A B+ is way too high a grade for Super. A B+ is what I'd give the 22nd Budokau Arc and that's one of my favorite arcs.
The Tournament of Power was better than that Tournament though and any Tournament in OG Dragon Ball.
In the same way that the Star Wars Holiday Special was better than The Empire Strikes back, sure.
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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by Zamasu Black » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm
In the same way that the Star Wars Holiday Special was better than The Empire Strikes back, sure.
Except that's as worse where my example was better.

The most important thing about a Tournament arc is the fights being good. The fights were not that good and certainly not exciting in the arc you mentioned.

And was of course just another retread and a mere copy of the previous Tournament arc which had only recently been done. With Yamcha losing to the eventual victor, Krillin getting to the second round and Goku getting to the final round where he only just about loses.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm
In the same way that the Star Wars Holiday Special was better than The Empire Strikes back, sure.
Except that's as worse where my example was better.

The most important thing about a Tournament arc is the fights being good. The fights were not that good and certainly not exciting in the arc you mentioned.

And was of course just another retread and a mere copy of the previous Tournament arc which had only recently been done. With Yamcha losing to the eventual victor, Krillin getting to the second round and Goku getting to the final round where he only just about loses.
Completely disagree. There are superficial similarities, but there are substantive differences you are clearly overlooking. Not to mention Tenshinhan works better as an antagonist, then there's the shocking ending of the arc. I say this as someone who enjoys the ToP quite a bit.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:57 pm

Oh it’s Stuckmann. I’ve lost interest already. His Z review was pretty mehhhhhhh

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:58 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm
In the same way that the Star Wars Holiday Special was better than The Empire Strikes back, sure.
Except that's as worse where my example was better.
No it wasn't.
ABED wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pm
Completely disagree. There are superficial similarities, but there are substantive differences you are clearly overlooking. Not to mention Tenshinhan works better as an antagonist, then there's the shocking ending of the arc. I say this as someone who enjoys the ToP quite a bit.
There is so much happening during the 22nd Budokai I don't know how anyone can call it a repeat of the 21st. There are several call backs sure but that's because "growth" is a big part of the arc. We're being given something to compare the cast of characters to so we can see how far they've come. The new generation is coming into its own and the previous generation is taking a step back from the world.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:06 pm

As a rule, YouTube reviewers are awful. If someone isn't a professional critic, chances are their reviews are mostly not worthwhile
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:08 pm

Zamasu Black wrote: And was of course just another retread and a mere copy of the previous Tournament arc which had only recently been done. With Yamcha losing to the eventual victor, Krillin getting to the second round and Goku getting to the final round where he only just about loses.
Dragon Ball uses a formula retread on multiple things including all 4 major arcs in Z following a similar pattern. The 22nd Budokai rehashing that formula is hardly noteworthy.

Yamucha does significantly better in his one fight in the 22nd tournament than the previous one where his defeat was a joke. Goku and Kuririn and Goku and Tenshinhan’s fight were more serious than the Looney Tunes esque fights in the 21st.

I liked the 22nd and 21st Budokai both but the 21st Budokai was when the series was still a gag series, the 22nd Budokai was when the series took a much serious approach while not losing its sense of fun. The 21st Budokai was always about two fish out of water learning the world is a big place. The 22nd was more two opposing schools with a vendetta against the other (Goku “killing”Tao and Tien breaking Yamaha’s leg)

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by Doctor. » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:06 pm
As a rule, YouTube reviewers are awful. If someone isn't a professional critic, chances are their reviews are mostly not worthwhile
Film critics are usually awful and have nothing interesting to say, as well.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:12 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:06 pm
As a rule, YouTube reviewers are awful. If someone isn't a professional critic, chances are their reviews are mostly not worthwhile
Film critics are usually awful and have nothing interesting to say, as well.
Damn, ya'll really don't like critics.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

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Re: A heartwarming Super review

Post by Doctor. » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:13 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:12 pm
Doctor. wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:06 pm
As a rule, YouTube reviewers are awful. If someone isn't a professional critic, chances are their reviews are mostly not worthwhile
Film critics are usually awful and have nothing interesting to say, as well.
Damn, ya'll really don't like critics.
No, I don't mind critics at all. Literary critics and music critics usually have some good insight; it's with cinema that I tend to notice superficial analysis.

Obviously, there are exceptions and I'm speaking from anecdote.

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