Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Tzigi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:21 pm

fexus wrote:
Tzigi wrote:
Sanderson's third law wrote:Expand what you already have before you add something new.
That is what I love about DBM. It does what I always wanted to see done to the DB world - it elaborates instead of simply adding new elements.
And this is where you are wrong. DBM has never and I mean never expanded towards what already is there. It just made a lot of what if scenarios on what would happen if something didn't go the way that the original timeline did. What it did bring that you can count as new was a race that can travel the alternate timeline universe and the tech warriors. As of now they never did explain what is already there. I feel like I'm repeating myself but I'll say it again, what DBM did was make a lot of what if timelines and throw them in a fight. It didn't expand to what is already there, they are just reusing the same elements that are already there and try to put their twist on it. It isn't expanding when almost everything in DBM can be known through the original DB. Unless we see the fable Vegeta got a new transformation scene, nothing is exactly new here.
Don't you see the contradiction in what you are writing? Expanding is using existing elements in a new way. Adding is... well adding new stuff. So the Varga and Heloites are an addition not an expansion. What ifs are an expansion. New races aren't - that's why there aren't many of them in DBM. But we get such things as this:
And it's precisely what Sanderson meant. It takes stuff that exists in DB canon and puts it to a new and intelligent use. That's something I admire. SSJ God is a boring new transformation - an unnecessary addition to the world, not an interesting expansion of it.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:51 pm

saiyanvegetable wrote:
DMB took the characters and faithfully fleshed them out in a multiversal tournament. Super hasn't had a goddamn thing worth writing about except maybe Jaco. Everything else is uninspired, hollow bullshit.
Super's multiversal tournament is better then the one in DBM in my opinion because it's more original. DBM has different AU versions of other characters that we seen before. We get a lot of cool new information like the origins of the Dragon Balls, what happen to the original Saiyan Planet and the U6 fighters are pretty neat too. Hit has a lot of suspense and mystery to his character. Frost is a good guy of Freeza's race which has not been done before outside the video games.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:20 pm

Hardly anything has happened in super's tournament and you are already saying that it's better because it's more "original"?

Also, the good saiyan is essentially what tarble was, only perhaps stronger (so, not very original), and a good "Freeza" might be new to the anime but it's hardly new as a concept in the fandom or in the large franchise (videogames) and is an extension of Dragon Ball cliche of having the bad guys turning out good (even though it's a twist since he isn't actually Freeza).

Furthermore, for all the criticism that Broly's resistance gets in DBM I fail to see why Botamo doesn't get similar treatment when his resistance seems to be even better than Broly in DBM, allowing him to remain unharmed even agaisnt characters much stronger than him. What would Goku do if there was no ring out?

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:57 am

Good saiyans may not be new, but we never got any type of back story for the original Saiyan planet before in the series. Besides evil saiyans today would never work unless you want to rehash Radditz, Nappa & Vegeta or Broli.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by fexus » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:24 am

Tzigi wrote: Don't you see the contradiction in what you are writing? Expanding is using existing elements in a new way. Adding is... well adding new stuff. So the Varga and Heloites are an addition not an expansion. What ifs are an expansion. New races aren't - that's why there aren't many of them in DBM. But we get such things as this:
And it's precisely what Sanderson meant. It takes stuff that exists in DB canon and puts it to a new and intelligent use. That's something I admire. SSJ God is a boring new transformation - an unnecessary addition to the world, not an interesting expansion of it.
That isn't expanding. And I'm not saying adding either. Expanding for example will explain where did the Dragon Balls came from. That's expanding. What DBM does is doing a different take on what already exist. Expanding is to let us know more about the world that already exist. DBM is as a I said is doing a different take of what already happen and don't have much to do to further our understanding of what is the Dragon Ball Multiverse.
And the page isn't doing as much as expanding but just as you said putting it to good use. Unless we see Vegeta gain the new transformation that everybody had been hyped about, there really isn't anything that they already have expanded upon.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:22 am

rereboy wrote:Hardly anything has happened in super's tournament and you are already saying that it's better because it's more "original"?

Also, the good saiyan is essentially what tarble was, only perhaps stronger (so, not very original), and a good "Freeza" might be new to the anime but it's hardly new as a concept in the fandom or in the large franchise (videogames) and is an extension of Dragon Ball cliche of having the bad guys turning out good (even though it's a twist since he isn't actually Freeza).

Furthermore, for all the criticism that Broly's resistance gets in DBM I fail to see why Botamo doesn't get similar treatment when his resistance seems to be even better than Broly in DBM, allowing him to remain unharmed even agaisnt characters much stronger than him. What would Goku do if there was no ring out?
To be fair it's hard to say the tournament is more original until we see more of the characters. The good Saiyans aren't as simple as Tarble though, it's an entire race and they've evolved, also they don't transform which I find quite interesting. I really want to find out more about their backstory. Frost is just the polar opposite to Freeza, he's basically a hero that protects and rescues planets.

The comparison between Botamo and Broly isn't fair. Botamo has an ability that allows him to send attacks into a different dimension. We don't know anything about Magetta or Hiit yet but they appear to be original. It's obviously not all original but it is the twin universe of 7 after all. If it was Uni 4 vs Uni 7 it should have no similarities at all.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:53 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:Good saiyans may not be new, but we never got any type of back story for the original Saiyan planet before in the series. Besides evil saiyans today would never work unless you want to rehash Radditz, Nappa & Vegeta or Broli.
The information we got about planet saiya so far was no more than a few short lines, I believe. Hardly a backstory, so far.
Sora Saiyan wrote:
The comparison between Botamo and Broly isn't fair. Botamo has an ability that allows him to send attacks into a different dimension.
The practical effect is the same: abnormal resistance to attacks. The inner workings of how that happens isn't really relevant in terms of practical effects on the fight.

Only, DBM's Broly would still be beaten by attacks that surpassed his power since they would overcome his resistance, while Botamo would still be resistant to attacks that were stronger than him. And we have different reactions from the fans to the two.

So, it seems a perfectly fair comparison to me.
Last edited by rereboy on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Tzigi » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:26 pm

fexus wrote:
Tzigi wrote: Don't you see the contradiction in what you are writing? Expanding is using existing elements in a new way. Adding is... well adding new stuff. So the Varga and Heloites are an addition not an expansion. What ifs are an expansion. New races aren't - that's why there aren't many of them in DBM. But we get such things as this:
And it's precisely what Sanderson meant. It takes stuff that exists in DB canon and puts it to a new and intelligent use. That's something I admire. SSJ God is a boring new transformation - an unnecessary addition to the world, not an interesting expansion of it.
That isn't expanding. And I'm not saying adding either. Expanding for example will explain where did the Dragon Balls came from. That's expanding. What DBM does is doing a different take on what already exist. Expanding is to let us know more about the world that already exist. DBM is as a I said is doing a different take of what already happen and don't have much to do to further our understanding of what is the Dragon Ball Multiverse.
And the page isn't doing as much as expanding but just as you said putting it to good use. Unless we see Vegeta gain the new transformation that everybody had been hyped about, there really isn't anything that they already have expanded upon.
Have you taken a logic class? I am asking it in all earnestness because we seem to be unable to meet on a fundamental, totally DB-unrelated level. Those two phrases: "Expanding for example will explain where did the Dragon Balls came from" and "Expanding is to let us know more about the world that already exist." are about adding new info to the existing pool of knowledge. Adding being the pertinent word here. Expanding on the other hand is - to take you word - "doing a different take of what already happen[ed]". As long as you don't get your terminology straight, we can't progress with the discussion.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:48 am

Why would people waste energy bashing and hating on a (pretty decent) fan manga. It is what it is and most of us enjoy DBM's take on the DB universe and what else it could potentially offer with the introduction of alternate universes coming together.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:15 am

Why do that with anything? It doesn't take much energy at all to begin with, not more than praising it or commenting any other way would. That's a pretty weird question.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:28 am

Saiga wrote:Why do that with anything? It doesn't take much energy at all to begin with, not more than praising it or commenting any other way would. That's a pretty weird question.
Because there's criticism and then there's bashing and hating. Bashing and hating hardly ever has a worthwhile point, and while it might be somewhat understandable when it happens regarding horrible products, it's not so understandable when it happens regarding pretty decent products.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:46 am

So it's understandable in DBM's case then. 8)

In all seriousness the difference between horrible and decent comes down to personal opinion so I don't see that affecting how understandable it is at all.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:55 am

Saiga wrote:So it's understandable in DBM's case then. 8)

In all seriousness the difference between horrible and decent comes down to personal opinion so I don't see that affecting how understandable it is at all.
Unless you consider 99,9% of all DB fan mangas as anything but horrible (as well as significant portion of the official material), I don't see how saying that DBM is horrible is more than just an exaggerated opinion that isn't concerned with the coherence and context of what it is saying.

In short, yes, it's subjective, but not all opinions concern themselves with coherence and fairness of treatment. I could go on IMDB and say that all the movies that I didn't find awesome, are horrible, but even though that was an opinion, it wouldn't be a very sound opinion.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by fexus » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:12 am

Tzigi wrote: Have you taken a logic class? I am asking it in all earnestness because we seem to be unable to meet on a fundamental, totally DB-unrelated level. Those two phrases: "Expanding for example will explain where did the Dragon Balls came from" and "Expanding is to let us know more about the world that already exist." are about adding new info to the existing pool of knowledge. Adding being the pertinent word here. Expanding on the other hand is - to take you word - "doing a different take of what already happen[ed]". As long as you don't get your terminology straight, we can't progress with the discussion.
Doing a different take on what already happen isn't expanding. I think you might be self-deluding yourself to think that it is and you are not wrong. Why is doing a different take expanding? Why is explaining where the dragon balls came from is adding? It's not like adding a new element to the story like Beerus but it's just explaining about things that are already there.
Does explaining why Goku have a tail adding? Is it?
It's like this for example imagine you see a big tree in a park. You ask your dad where does the tree came from. Rather than explaining the backstory of where the tree came from your dad began to babble that the tree could grow smaller if it doesn't have the right nutrition. That's DBM.
What Super does is actually trying to explain how the tree became that big and maybe show how the tree will become old. That's expanding on the story of the tree. Adding on the other hand tell you about a story that the tree once had a parasite.
Sure Super does add things but it also expand more about DB multiverse. DBM does none of this.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:20 am

Unless you consider 99,9% of all DB fan mangas as anything but horrible (as well as significant portion of the official material), I don't see how saying that DBM is horrible is more than just an exaggerated opinion that isn't concerned with the coherence and context of what it is saying.
That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read. You'd have to assume that I, personally, consider DBM better than 99.9% of all DB fanmangas and a significant portion of official material for that claim to make any amount of sense at all.

Which is nowhere close to accurate.
In short, yes, it's subjective, but not all opinions concern themselves with coherence and fairness of treatment. I could go on IMDB and say that all the movies that I didn't find awesome, are horrible, but even though that was an opinion, it wouldn't be a very sound opinion.
Not a very good example. It's more like just considering one movie is horrible.

FYI, I was joking by saying that. I don't think it's horrible, just bad. And I don't need to compare it to other fanmanga to decide that it's bad, it can be judged on its own merits. At the same time, I don't think even comparing it to the low bar set by most fanmanga improves its standing much.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:21 am

fexus wrote: Doing a different take on what already happen isn't expanding.
A different take would be a retelling. DBM isn't a remake of Dragon Ball.
Saiga wrote:
That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read. You'd have to assume that I, personally, consider DBM better than 99.9% of all DB fanmangas and a significant portion of official material for that claim to make any amount of sense at all.

Which is nowhere close to accurate.
Overall, almost all fan mangas of DB out there have worse quality than DBM. Only a few have comparable or higher quality. You can disagree, but like I said, I don't see how that opinion would be coherent and not exaggerated. Pretty much like saying that what I posted "is one of the most ridiculous things you've read". Is it really? Out of all the things you have read during your lifetime, including comments on youtube and similar things, this is the one that reaches your top of ridiculousness? Such an opinion isn't exaggerated and incoherent? I find that hard to believe.

Not a very good example. It's more like just considering one movie is horrible.

FYI, I was joking by saying that. I don't think it's horrible, just bad. And I don't need to compare it to other fanmanga to decide that it's bad, it can be judged on its own merits. At the same time, I don't think even comparing it to the low bar set by most fanmanga improves its standing much.
Nor did I say that you can't find it bad or criticize it. This was about thinking something is horrible and about bashing/hating.
Last edited by rereboy on Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:48 am

Overall, almost all fan mangas of DB out there have worse quality than DBM. Only a few have comparable or higher quality. You can disagree, but like I said, I don't see how that opinion would be coherent and not exaggerated.
Bolded is purely your opinion.

And if you are seriously saying that you can't see how disagreeing with that is a coherent/not exaggerated opinion, then I would think you are either the one exaggerating or being extremely narrow minded.

Though I think arguing this distinction is kind of silly anyway. Even if DBM were hypothetically better than every other fanmanga there was, it could still be terrible itself. That kind of comparison doesn't say much for its quality unless you set the baseline for fanmanga - which is probably not going to be very high.
Pretty much like saying that what I posted "is one of the most ridiculous things you've read". Is it really? Out of all the things you have read during your lifetime, including comments on youtube and similar things, this is the one that reaches your top of ridiculousness? Such an opinion isn't exaggerated and incoherent? I find that hard to believe.
Please don't conflate actual hyperbole with my completely separate opinion and then act like you have a point. The fact that that was obvious hyperbole has nothing to do with my original comment.

So no, I can't be sure it's ranked that high on everything I read, but I would have thought it obvious that I didn't literally mean that - it's a pretty common form of hyperbole. That doesn't change that it is still a completely ridiculous thing for you to say and you didn't even address what I said directly.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:27 am

Saiga wrote:
Bolded is purely your opinion.
Never said it wasn't. It's clearly my opinion. And you can clearly disagree with it. But I will also have an opinion on your opinion. And I might not think it's very sound.
And if you are seriously saying that you can't see how disagreeing with that is a coherent/not exaggerated opinion, then I would think you are either the one exaggerating or being extremely narrow minded.
Specifically, if you disagreed and said, "no, it's not 99,9%, it's 90%" or "it's 80%" or "it's 70%" or similar, I wouldn't find that incoherent/exaggerated. But that's not the vibe the term horrible gives (unless you consider almost everything to be horrible, like I said).
Though I think arguing this distinction is kind of silly anyway. Even if DBM were hypothetically better than every other fanmanga there was, it could still be terrible itself. That kind of comparison doesn't say much for its quality unless you set the baseline for fanmanga - which is probably not going to be very high.
Like I said, from the start, unless you consider almost all fan mangas out there to be horrible. In that case, it's coherent.

Please don't conflate actual hyperbole with my completely separate opinion and then act like you have a point. The fact that that was obvious hyperbole has nothing to do with my original comment.

So no, I can't be sure it's ranked that high on everything I read, but I would have thought it obvious that I didn't literally mean that - it's a pretty common form of hyperbole. That doesn't change that it is still a completely ridiculous thing for you to say and you didn't even address what I said directly.
Hyperbole as an expression and an exaggerated or incoherent opinion come from the same place: unwillingness (either deliberate or not) to ponderate on our our words and their accuracy regarding the merits and flaws of what we are criticizing. In that sense they are comparable.

Also, like in our previous conversations, you are slowly slipping into indirect insults, by saying things like "narrow minded". That's another effect of not pondering on our words.
Last edited by rereboy on Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:33 am

Hyperbole as an expression and an exaggerated or incoherent opinion come from the same place: unwillingness (either deliberate or not) to ponderate on our our words and their accuracy regarding the merits and flaws of what we are criticizing. In that sense they are comparable.
Nah that's a load of crap. I am not going to watch every word I saw in case you pick apart one completely unrelated response and try holding it against some other opinion I have. I just used a pretty common exaggeration, get over it.
Like I said, from the start, unless you consider almost all fan mangas out there to be horrible. In that case, it's coherent.
No, it would also be coherent to say that DBM is horrible and worse than most other fanmanga. Which makes your original response ridiculous.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:36 am

In short, you are not going to ponder on your words, and yet still expect them to be fair and perfectly accurate. Got it. That wraps up the discussion for me.

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