Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

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Matches Malone
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:18 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:35 pm
I can't believe Salagir's trying to pull an all's well that ends well. Ugh.
It was established from day one that anyone who dies within the tournament will be brought back, so technically speaking, all is well. With that said, Vegetto has 0 redeeming qualities at this point, and if anything, he's the one who needs to be put down. His anger has nothing to do with what she did, but rather the fact that she's stronger than him.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:34 am

Everyone on that page is acting like how everyone does in Canon Dragonball. Bulma for example slept with the man who had her current Boyfriend killed in about a year of meeting him.

The z gang always forgives when their enemies show a little bit of remorse.as for Babidi the mind control only makes you obey him when he activately forces you such as when he tries to make Vegeta kill Kaioshin and Vegeta boots him out.

With others after he enhances the darkness in you, you can do what ever you want as long as you believe its helping Babidi.

Dabra goes againts Babidi's wishes because he thought Buu would kill Babidi which is what happens.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Thani » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:13 am

Kanassa wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:44 am
Thani wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:39 pm
But that's the thing, Dabura was still 100% loyal to Babidi, his actions were purely motivated by that loyalty. He never broke free of his spell. Which doesn't entirely contradict what she said about not being a voluntary slave to his magic. But it's a good point you raised nonetheless.
It does though, Multiverse wants to present Babidi's brand of control as if it were more like Baby's or something, where the user is a complete slave that has no choice or agency in how they act or what they do when that's no how it works. And in Salgair's attempt to have his cake and eat it too, he fails to even really retcon it. The spell made Bra want to protect Babidi, but she's the one who chose to go about it in the goriest and worst way possible while gloating about how much she's getting off at murdering innocent people and her family. And the only thing that gives her even a moment of pause is being called a pussy. This back-peddling on her characterization comes off as even dumber because we JUST had a special that showed us very clearly that this isn't her first time. She's murdered innocent people and her family members and only cared how strong it means she is.

It's like if someone you're forced to obey tells you to kill someone and instead of just stabbing or shooting them, you decide to horrifically torture them to death. Yeah, the murder part was out of your control, but the psychotic torture was completely on you. When she breaks out of Majin, she shouldn't be weeping over what she's done, she should be weeping that she was so weak and pathetic that Babidi was able to control her like that.
Yes, I agre with that. The intention was clearly "okay, so she's normally a jerk, but nothing beyond that. she's definitely a jerk, but she has a conscience and wouldn't go out of her way to do bad shit, that's why Babidi's majin spell is important here, since he's blocking her best features", but coupled with her general behavior now and in the special, it falls flat, like I keep saying. Salagir did a poor job to make the portrayal he apparently intended to do, and I cannot imagine the reason why, since he had a LOT of time for that.
It was established from day one that anyone who dies within the tournament will be brought back, so technically speaking, all is well. With that said, Vegetto has 0 redeeming qualities at this point, and if anything, he's the one who needs to be put down. His anger has nothing to do with what she did, but rather the fact that she's stronger than him.
Yeah, which is why I hate this page in particular. Vegito isn't even logically wrong in this whole ordeal! As far as he knows, he's putting a rabid beast down for the safety of everyone. Even Gotenks states that what he's doing is keeping his promise to keep the universe safe, from Bra if necessary. While I agree that he's not thinking right at this moment, I can absolutely understand why that would be the case - which makes this page, full of character shilling at the expense of Vegito, really grating to me.
Everyone on that page is acting like how everyone does in Canon Dragonball. Bulma for example slept with the man who had her current Boyfriend killed in about a year of meeting him.

The z gang always forgives when their enemies show a little bit of remorse.as for Babidi the mind control only makes you obey him when he activately forces you such as when he tries to make Vegeta kill Kaioshin and Vegeta boots him out.

With others after he enhances the darkness in you, you can do what ever you want as long as you believe its helping Babidi.

Dabra goes againts Babidi's wishes because he thought Buu would kill Babidi which is what happens.
I agree with this. I have less of a problem with the resolution being "all is well when it ends well" and more with the way we're getting there, making Vegito looking like a bastard for no good reason (even if he kind of is, which isn't bad in itself).

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by YamiGoku » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:51 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:34 am
Everyone on that page is acting like how everyone does in Canon Dragonball. Bulma for example slept with the man who had her current Boyfriend killed in about a year of meeting him.

The z gang always forgives when their enemies show a little bit of remorse.as for Babidi the mind control only makes you obey him when he activately forces you such as when he tries to make Vegeta kill Kaioshin and Vegeta boots him out.

With others after he enhances the darkness in you, you can do what ever you want as long as you believe its helping Babidi.

Dabra goes againts Babidi's wishes because he thought Buu would kill Babidi which is what happens.
That was still one year after manny events, and yes is still something very DBesque to forgive a previous villain despite of how bad he/she was, but there is at least some time to digest the change of the villain and the cast feelings towards him/she.

here, she slaughter friends and family just moments ago, gohan chopped body is lying around, hell, they may be stepping in some of the pieces of piccolo right now and they are all like nothing bad happen

that's not like something that would happen on DBZ, that's more like something you see in a parody.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:04 am

Kanassa wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:44 am
Thani wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:39 pm
But that's the thing, Dabura was still 100% loyal to Babidi, his actions were purely motivated by that loyalty. He never broke free of his spell. Which doesn't entirely contradict what she said about not being a voluntary slave to his magic. But it's a good point you raised nonetheless.
It does though, Multiverse wants to present Babidi's brand of control as if it were more like Baby's or something, where the user is a complete slave that has no choice or agency in how they act or what they do when that's no how it works. And in Salgair's attempt to have his cake and eat it too, he fails to even really retcon it. The spell made Bra want to protect Babidi, but she's the one who chose to go about it in the goriest and worst way possible while gloating about how much she's getting off at murdering innocent people and her family. And the only thing that gives her even a moment of pause is being called a pussy. This back-peddling on her characterization comes off as even dumber because we JUST had a special that showed us very clearly that this isn't her first time. She's murdered innocent people and her family members and only cared how strong it means she is.

It's like if someone you're forced to obey tells you to kill someone and instead of just stabbing or shooting them, you decide to horrifically torture them to death. Yeah, the murder part was out of your control, but the psychotic torture was completely on you. When she breaks out of Majin, she shouldn't be weeping over what she's done, she should be weeping that she was so weak and pathetic that Babidi was able to control her like that.
But Babidi's control is more than just blind slavery - it takes the small sliver of evil in you and makes it the whole of your personality. Vegeta resisted the slavery because of his pride, but we keep forgetting the other reason he wanted Babidi's spell - to bring all of the worst parts of himself back to the surface. So even though Vegeta was in control of his actions, I doubt he would have just up and murdered 200 people without the spell darkening his personality. For him it's like getting a little drunk and losing impulse control.

Same thing with Bra here - the evil in bra's heart comes from her insecuity and desire to be stronger than everyone. And she's also mentally weak. So Babidi exploited that and turned her into an evil slave. The parts of her that would object to killing her family are not in play here. But she still feels responsible for everything because even though it took a spell to get it out, the capacity to do all that was in there, as the flashback established.

Only when a normal version of herself attacked the core of why Babidi was able to control her did she break free. Unlike most, I actually don't have a problem with the story Salagir's trying to tell here - the execution of that story is where it fails.

Bra's normally good, but when Babidi brings out the evil in her it makes her a killing machine. I think the reason it's hard to grasp is because the two most prominent characters we see taken in by Babidi - Dabura and Vegeta - were already pretty bad to begin with. Dabura was the literal king of demons and Vegeta was a violent space viking who had enough self control to calm himself down after a few years.

I think if something like this happened to say, post-Frieza, pre-merger Piccolo, the same shit would happen. Unlike Vegeta, Piccolo genuinely became a good guy, but there's still that evil in his heart - Kami says it's "greatly diminished", not that it's all gone. So I think Babidi taking control of Piccolo would bring him back to his ol' Demon King self. He's not single-mindedly headstrong like Vegeta was, so he wouldn't have a goal in mind that would motivate him to tell Babidi to fuck off.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Noah » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:09 am

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Wow. This is so stupid. Now I'm rooting for Vegito to go on a killing spree. These people are too stupid to live. And the retconning here is enough to give me whiplash. Seriously, WTF?
My thoughts EXACTLY! Everyone is just stupid as F**K! Why the hell the other Bra cares if her counterpart can control SSJ2? Why she's happy though? Come on Vegetto, just break Gast technique and end this sh*t already, I just can't take this anymore.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:20 am

Vegito basically had no personality especially out of combat.
It's mad to say he's being mischaracterised or whatever.

The all powerful Vegito has inherited the worst traits of his fusees and being all power and unchallenged has caused him to become a complete dickhead alienated from humanity.

We saw him lazily leaving a planet destroying Bra to Gohan while he was dicking around in space being a space-pig.

It's a perfectly valid direction to take the character in.
If you don't like it you better stop reading, he's clearly being set up to be the big bad of the comic since way back in the vision.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Thani » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:57 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:04 am
Kanassa wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:44 am
Thani wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:39 pm
But that's the thing, Dabura was still 100% loyal to Babidi, his actions were purely motivated by that loyalty. He never broke free of his spell. Which doesn't entirely contradict what she said about not being a voluntary slave to his magic. But it's a good point you raised nonetheless.
It does though, Multiverse wants to present Babidi's brand of control as if it were more like Baby's or something, where the user is a complete slave that has no choice or agency in how they act or what they do when that's no how it works. And in Salgair's attempt to have his cake and eat it too, he fails to even really retcon it. The spell made Bra want to protect Babidi, but she's the one who chose to go about it in the goriest and worst way possible while gloating about how much she's getting off at murdering innocent people and her family. And the only thing that gives her even a moment of pause is being called a pussy. This back-peddling on her characterization comes off as even dumber because we JUST had a special that showed us very clearly that this isn't her first time. She's murdered innocent people and her family members and only cared how strong it means she is.

It's like if someone you're forced to obey tells you to kill someone and instead of just stabbing or shooting them, you decide to horrifically torture them to death. Yeah, the murder part was out of your control, but the psychotic torture was completely on you. When she breaks out of Majin, she shouldn't be weeping over what she's done, she should be weeping that she was so weak and pathetic that Babidi was able to control her like that.
But Babidi's control is more than just blind slavery - it takes the small sliver of evil in you and makes it the whole of your personality. Vegeta resisted the slavery because of his pride, but we keep forgetting the other reason he wanted Babidi's spell - to bring all of the worst parts of himself back to the surface. So even though Vegeta was in control of his actions, I doubt he would have just up and murdered 200 people without the spell darkening his personality. For him it's like getting a little drunk and losing impulse control.

Same thing with Bra here - the evil in bra's heart comes from her insecuity and desire to be stronger than everyone. And she's also mentally weak. So Babidi exploited that and turned her into an evil slave. The parts of her that would object to killing her family are not in play here. But she still feels responsible for everything because even though it took a spell to get it out, the capacity to do all that was in there, as the flashback established.

Only when a normal version of herself attacked the core of why Babidi was able to control her did she break free. Unlike most, I actually don't have a problem with the story Salagir's trying to tell here - the execution of that story is where it fails.

Bra's normally good, but when Babidi brings out the evil in her it makes her a killing machine. I think the reason it's hard to grasp is because the two most prominent characters we see taken in by Babidi - Dabura and Vegeta - were already pretty bad to begin with. Dabura was the literal king of demons and Vegeta was a violent space viking who had enough self control to calm himself down after a few years.

I think if something like this happened to say, post-Frieza, pre-merger Piccolo, the same shit would happen. Unlike Vegeta, Piccolo genuinely became a good guy, but there's still that evil in his heart - Kami says it's "greatly diminished", not that it's all gone. So I think Babidi taking control of Piccolo would bring him back to his ol' Demon King self. He's not single-mindedly headstrong like Vegeta was, so he wouldn't have a goal in mind that would motivate him to tell Babidi to fuck off.
:clap:

At the end of the day, the fault lies mostly with the execution. The plot itself is fine.
TobyS wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:20 am
Vegito basically had no personality especially out of combat.
It's mad to say he's being mischaracterised or whatever.

The all powerful Vegito has inherited the worst traits of his fusees and being all power and unchallenged has caused him to become a complete dickhead alienated from humanity.

We saw him lazily leaving a planet destroying Bra to Gohan while he was dicking around in space being a space-pig.

It's a perfectly valid direction to take the character in.
If you don't like it you better stop reading, he's clearly being set up to be the big bad of the comic since way back in the vision.
To be fair with Vegito, his worries are absolutely warranted after everything that happened. If Bra could be taken control so easily, it's easy to see why he consider her such a threat.

But you're right, it's not something new. Vegito is unstable, he inherited the worst part of both of his fusees and is having a hard time adjusting to this new existence. I think he'll probably snap soon, I can imagine that Bardock's vision was of a misguided attempt to keep the universe safe by a probably insane Vegito.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:29 pm

I don't have a problem with Vegetto being flawed, he's all of Goku and Vegeta put together, the good and the bad. So if you're gonna write him as a stand a lone character and not just a "stronger form of Goku" then yes he has to come with his own issues.

The idea being presented is Vegetto is too strong for his own good, he has the Saiyan Blood lust x2 and is more or less the strongest person in his Universe without question but that comes at the price of being so bored with lack of competition that he only sees any real "rival" in his own daughter who unfortunately cant control her own power at certain levels so much so to the point that she could be a danger to the universe if left unchecked. Vegetto is hard on her but Bra is no saint her self as she can be extremely arrogant and careless.

I get it, but the way things are being presented to us currently makes the whole narrative seem forced as fuck.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Thani » Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:56 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:29 pm
I get it, but the way things are being presented to us currently makes the whole narrative seem forced as fuck.
This. This is the crux of the problem, imo. The plot itself is fine, the presentation however... Could have been a lot better.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:21 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:18 am
It was established from day one that anyone who dies within the tournament will be brought back, so technically speaking, all is well.
Perfect! Vegetto can kill Bra, then bring her back once he's sure she'll behave. All is well.

...That logic goes both ways, is what I'm saying.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fable » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:17 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:21 pm
Perfect! Vegetto can kill Bra, then bring her back once he's sure she'll behave. All is well.
[Insert "No, no. He's got a point." meme here.]

In all seriousness, what would Vegetto be at risk of?

Disqualification? He's already been eliminated.

Losing his morality? I still can't see how Vegetto is necessarily in the wrong, here. His actions are fundamentally justifiable; which is part of what makes this page so bad.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:43 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:04 am

But Babidi's control is more than just blind slavery - it takes the small sliver of evil in you and makes it the whole of your personality. Vegeta resisted the slavery because of his pride, but we keep forgetting the other reason he wanted Babidi's spell - to bring all of the worst parts of himself back to the surface. So even though Vegeta was in control of his actions, I doubt he would have just up and murdered 200 people without the spell darkening his personality. For him it's like getting a little drunk and losing impulse control.

Same thing with Bra here - the evil in bra's heart comes from her insecuity and desire to be stronger than everyone. And she's also mentally weak. So Babidi exploited that and turned her into an evil slave. The parts of her that would object to killing her family are not in play here. But she still feels responsible for everything because even though it took a spell to get it out, the capacity to do all that was in there, as the flashback established.

Only when a normal version of herself attacked the core of why Babidi was able to control her did she break free. Unlike most, I actually don't have a problem with the story Salagir's trying to tell here - the execution of that story is where it fails.

Bra's normally good, but when Babidi brings out the evil in her it makes her a killing machine. I think the reason it's hard to grasp is because the two most prominent characters we see taken in by Babidi - Dabura and Vegeta - were already pretty bad to begin with. Dabura was the literal king of demons and Vegeta was a violent space viking who had enough self control to calm himself down after a few years.

I think if something like this happened to say, post-Frieza, pre-merger Piccolo, the same shit would happen. Unlike Vegeta, Piccolo genuinely became a good guy, but there's still that evil in his heart - Kami says it's "greatly diminished", not that it's all gone. So I think Babidi taking control of Piccolo would bring him back to his ol' Demon King self. He's not single-mindedly headstrong like Vegeta was, so he wouldn't have a goal in mind that would motivate him to tell Babidi to fuck off.
This really doesn't work for me - the evil Vegeta still didn't want to hurt Gohan (he outright says as much), even before he disobeyed Babidi. And Goku was still able to reason with him. And this Vegeta wanted Babidi to bring out his evil.

So wanting his evil brought out = less evil brought out?

Whereas Bra, she is so evil that she enjoys killing her friends in family, mocks and tortures them, and shrugs off all attempts to get through to her on compassionate grounds. All because she was an unwilling slave? That makes far less sense to me, that being willing makes you less susceptible to evil.

The real issue is that this explanation simply doesn't jell with what we previously saw of the Majinization. Bra was so over the top cruel and evil, compared to other Majins we saw, that saying now that it's not her fault falls extremely flat.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:06 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:18 am
It was established from day one that anyone who dies within the tournament will be brought back, so technically speaking, all is well. With that said, Vegetto has 0 redeeming qualities at this point, and if anything, he's the one who needs to be put down. His anger has nothing to do with what she did, but rather the fact that she's stronger than him.
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:34 am
Everyone on that page is acting like how everyone does in Canon Dragonball. Bulma for example slept with the man who had her current Boyfriend killed in about a year of meeting him.

The z gang always forgives when their enemies show a little bit of remorse.as for Babidi the mind control only makes you obey him when he activately forces you such as when he tries to make Vegeta kill Kaioshin and Vegeta boots him out.

With others after he enhances the darkness in you, you can do what ever you want as long as you believe its helping Babidi.

Dabra goes againts Babidi's wishes because he thought Buu would kill Babidi which is what happens.
Toriyama has a real simplistic writing style. More on action, less on feelings, So I can see where one can make the argument that because forgiveness comes so easy in canon, and that death is of no consequence in canon, some people can shrug their shoulders and move on from the horror and bullshit we just saw quite recently. More power to you. But that's not me. I expect better, if not from the original manga-ka, than from the fan boy writing this series.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:12 pm

Saiga wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:43 pm
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:04 am

But Babidi's control is more than just blind slavery - it takes the small sliver of evil in you and makes it the whole of your personality. Vegeta resisted the slavery because of his pride, but we keep forgetting the other reason he wanted Babidi's spell - to bring all of the worst parts of himself back to the surface. So even though Vegeta was in control of his actions, I doubt he would have just up and murdered 200 people without the spell darkening his personality. For him it's like getting a little drunk and losing impulse control.

Same thing with Bra here - the evil in bra's heart comes from her insecuity and desire to be stronger than everyone. And she's also mentally weak. So Babidi exploited that and turned her into an evil slave. The parts of her that would object to killing her family are not in play here. But she still feels responsible for everything because even though it took a spell to get it out, the capacity to do all that was in there, as the flashback established.

Only when a normal version of herself attacked the core of why Babidi was able to control her did she break free. Unlike most, I actually don't have a problem with the story Salagir's trying to tell here - the execution of that story is where it fails.

Bra's normally good, but when Babidi brings out the evil in her it makes her a killing machine. I think the reason it's hard to grasp is because the two most prominent characters we see taken in by Babidi - Dabura and Vegeta - were already pretty bad to begin with. Dabura was the literal king of demons and Vegeta was a violent space viking who had enough self control to calm himself down after a few years.

I think if something like this happened to say, post-Frieza, pre-merger Piccolo, the same shit would happen. Unlike Vegeta, Piccolo genuinely became a good guy, but there's still that evil in his heart - Kami says it's "greatly diminished", not that it's all gone. So I think Babidi taking control of Piccolo would bring him back to his ol' Demon King self. He's not single-mindedly headstrong like Vegeta was, so he wouldn't have a goal in mind that would motivate him to tell Babidi to fuck off.
This really doesn't work for me - the evil Vegeta still didn't want to hurt Gohan (he outright says as much), even before he disobeyed Babidi. And Goku was still able to reason with him. And this Vegeta wanted Babidi to bring out his evil.

So wanting his evil brought out = less evil brought out?

Whereas Bra, she is so evil that she enjoys killing her friends in family, mocks and tortures them, and shrugs off all attempts to get through to her on compassionate grounds. All because she was an unwilling slave? That makes far less sense to me, that being willing makes you less susceptible to evil.

The real issue is that this explanation simply doesn't jell with what we previously saw of the Majinization. Bra was so over the top cruel and evil, compared to other Majins we saw, that saying now that it's not her fault falls extremely flat.
He didn't say anything about not wanting to kill Gohan before he defied Babidi. At least not in the manga.

It's more subtle Vegeta's case because again, he engineered the entire situation - he understood what Babidi's spell would do, and he let it happen so he could get to his goal. And he's so self-absorbed and commited to that goal that he overpowered Babidi's orders and eventually was able to be reasoned with. He didn't give a shit about Gohan. He didn't refuse to kill Gohan because it was the right thing to do, but because he wasn't his goal.

But killing a bunch of innocent people - which could have included his WIFE - to get Goku to fight him is evil as fuck. Vegeta's explanation to Goku makes it clear that he didn't think he was capable of doing shit like that anymore, so he let Babidi possess to turn him back into a ruthless murderer.

Bra on the other hand? She didn't expect any of that shit. She didn't have a goal, she didn't have Babidi and his capabilities on her mind. She just got possessed like everybody that's fallen to his magic, and then acted on her new evil impulses. Vegeta was the exception to the rule because of his ambition. In the end, he was the guy pulling the strings.
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Saiga
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:22 pm

Weird, I dunno if it was in the anime but I remembered Vegeta telling Gohan to stand down because he didn't want to fight him. It still doesn't change that he was clearly more capable of reason and compassion than Bra, with Goku being able to get through to him and him apologizing to Gohan after believing he died.

Anywho, I'm not saying that Vegeta wasn't evil there. But Bra killed all of the spectators here, as well, on top of sadistically enjoying the murder of her friends and family. That is far more evil, no question about it, and it's a copout to provide an explanation after the fact after presenting her as purely villainous for several chapters.

And the explanation just doesn't make sense to me, that submitting willingly is the reason Vegeta could resist - that simply doesn't fit how the manga presented his resistance. It just feels like a weak excuse so they can make Bra act like a complete villain and then reveal none of it was her fault, which is extremely cheap.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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jjgp1112
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:44 pm

Saiga wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:22 pm
Weird, I dunno if it was in the anime but I remembered Vegeta telling Gohan to stand down because he didn't want to fight him. It still doesn't change that he was clearly more capable of reason and compassion than Bra, with Goku being able to get through to him and him apologizing to Gohan after believing he died.

Anywho, I'm not saying that Vegeta wasn't evil there. But Bra killed all of the spectators here, as well, on top of sadistically enjoying the murder of her friends and family. That is far more evil, no question about it, and it's a copout to provide an explanation after the fact after presenting her as purely villainous for several chapters.

And the explanation just doesn't make sense to me, that submitting willingly is the reason Vegeta could resist - that simply doesn't fit how the manga presented his resistance. It just feels like a weak excuse so they can make Bra act like a complete villain and then reveal none of it was her fault, which is extremely cheap.
It's not just that he did it willingly - it's that he had a very specific goal in his mind, the very goal that consumed him and drove him mad. The combination of his pride and his psychotic dedication to that goal allowed him to resist - that's always how it came off to me. He's so prideful and obsessed that even magic can't throw him off his course.

Like I said, Salagir's done a shit job of telling the story and is letting Bra off the hook to easily. But the way I see it, Bra has clearly demonstrated in the past that if she gets off her rocker enough, she can recklessly kill her friends. It was but a flicker, but it was there. With Babidi pushing her morals in the backseat, that flicker of evil became her whole personality and she didn't have a goal or pride to keep her on course. With all of the bad and none of the good, of course Bra's going to be a cackling, sadistic madwoman.

Vegeta submitted to Babidi because he wanted to do the type of lowdown shit Bra was doing, but his will was so strong that Goku was able to snap him out of it. Bra's will is weak.

All that being said, I think the far more reasonable conclusion to all this is Vegetto still getting stopped from killing her because his toxic personality allowed Bra to be the way she is and killing your own daughter because you can't control her is the embodiment of that - but Bra needs to be ostracized too. None of this filibuster bullshit to repair everything. This needs to be the end of the line for both of them.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World
"They say assholes grow on trees/But I'm just here to trim the leaves"
"If a girl is over 35 and not married, then she must be nuttier than squirrel shit." - Reverend Pastor Father Uncle Ruckus (no relation)

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Saiga
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:35 am

Oh, that's fair. I can buy the argument that Bra couldn't resist like Vegeta could.

Just not this idea that the last page put forward that everything is out of her control. Like you said, this behavior should be a sign of some pretty nasty things lurking inside her heart.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Fionordequester
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fionordequester » Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:39 am

Imagine Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. Anakin massacres all the children, and all the Jedi. Obi-Wan insists Anakin would not fall to the Dark Side, until he sees the recording. He finds Anakin, beats him, and is about to end it... Then Yoda shuts off his lightsaber, and lifts him into the air.
"More faith in your apprentice, you should have, Obi-Wan. Seduced by Palpatine, and the Dark Side of the Force, he was. Murder him, you should not".
Padme comes in after being force-choked, and says this:
"Don't you see? Anakin is sorry! He's calm now. He has complete control over himself!"
Mace Windu then comes in, bandaged head-to-toe, and tells Obi-Wan this:
You have failed him as a father, and as a master. You KNOW he's had self-control problems ever since he was a child, yet have been impatient and frustrated. You have not given him the praise he needs, nor have you relied on others as you should have...
...And on it goes. That's what these pages are like :sick: ...
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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ZeroNeonix
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:31 am

^This.^ If you're going to try to pull a redemption thing, have her actually do something to redeem herself. For Vader, it was killing the Emperor to save his son, at the cost of his own life. For Vegeta, it was sacrificing himself to destroy Buu. He failed, but he tried, and he came back later to help finish the job. For Bra, her only redemption is feeling sorry. And everyone except Vegito just forgives her? No! Bad Salagir! Bad!

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