Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:28 am

Scarz wrote:I'm waiting for Gohan to say something completely out of character on the next page. Like "make him pay" or "make him suffer" but I'll love to be proven wrong.
How is that out of character for Gohan? His own daughter was killed. Of course, he'd like to bring justice. Not to mention it was also shown that Gohan was like that in the original series.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:38 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote: Dragon Ball is a shonen series, there are no restrictions...

How he obtained his SS2 equivalent was definitely a fluke, I'll give you that, but absolutely nothing says he couldn't have obtained that power via another method given the time and need/desire/motivation. I mean, Cell has all the traits, abilities and techniques of the characters who were used in his creation, including the near death boosts. Even though Gero was creating him with the intention of making him the most powerful being in existence, I think it would be absurd to assume that the doctor or the computer would code him with such an imperfection as not being able to increase his power via training (at least in his perfect form) so that he can't make the same sort of gains almost every other character in the series displays the ability to make, especially when you consider who most of his DNA donors were: Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza, Cold and "various other organisms"; like insects. (He doesn't have Gohan's cells in the original...nor Kuririn, Nappa or Tenshinhan.) That would be such a gigantic flaw in his supposedly perfect being...

Oh, and Cell defying logic and having techniques of the various character just from having their cells is pretty much stated directly in the series. Gero monitored the battles for a while, but then stopped and gave the project over to the computer. He didn't know about Super Saiyan because he didn't watch Goku defeat Freeza, yet Cell clearly displays the ability to use the Death Beam, so it wasn't something Gero himself programmed in. Add in the fact that Piccolo states that Cell's very first Kamehameha is pathetic because Goku's cells were harvested back when he was a lot weaker, well I don't think you need much more to see the connection.
I don't buy the no restrictions thing. There are limits to how strong one could get in a given time frame.

I'm not saying Gero deliberately gimped him, but I don't think he'd plan for Cell to train to get stronger. He thought that absorbing 17 and 18 would give him the power he needed. And, again, it's more him making better gains that I don't believe, especially when he doesn't have any of the special kinds of training the others have.

I had forgotten about the death beam, but techniques still have nothing to do with potential. Also had forgotten that he lacked Gohan's cells.

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But look what it took for him to get a Zenkai power up. Being reduced to his regenerative nucleus. Vegeta's Final Flash and Goku's Warp Kamehameha did massive damage without him getting a Zenkai, so it wouldn't be easy for him to abuse at all.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:53 am

Goku trained for 6 days, from 10,000 to 90,000. That's 9x increase. Imagine 27 years of trainings and battles Cell have had. It wouldn't be farfetched for Cell to be super-powerful by now.
Salgia wrote:I'm not saying Gero deliberately gimped him, but I don't think he'd plan for Cell to train to get stronger. He thought that absorbing 17 and 18 would give him the power he needed. And, again, it's more him making better gains that I don't believe, especially when he doesn't have any of the special kinds of training the others have.
What special training? It's not really needed since a normal training alone is more than enough for him to become stronger. Just because he absorbed #17 and #18 doesn't mean he doesn't need training. It's obvious that Cell would train since he inherited Goku and Vegeta's cells in him. Cell is a part Saiyan too so it's in his blood that he would want to be stronger. One of the options is to train. It was shown in the manga that he wants to warm up by sparring with Vegeta. And the idea of Cell Games is to hone his skills, and to improve his abilities.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:27 am

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:Goku trained for 6 days, from 10,000 to 90,000. That's 9x increase. Imagine 27 years of trainings and battles Cell have had. It wouldn't be farfetched for Cell to be super-powerful by now.
Goku didn't keep that pace up. He only got that strong because of the 100x gravity and abusing his Zenkai power up.
What special training? It's not really needed since a normal training alone is more than enough for him to become stronger. Just because he absorbed #17 and #18 doesn't mean he doesn't need training. It's obvious that Cell would train since he inherited Goku and Vegeta's cells in him. Cell is a part Saiyan too so it's in his blood that he would want to be stronger. One of the options is to train. It was shown in the manga that he wants to warm up by sparring with Vegeta. And the idea of Cell Games is to hone his skills, and to improve his abilities.
Special training being: Gravity machines, RoSaT, sparring partners, Other World etc... all the things that made the heroes gain massive gains over just regular trainin.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:59 am

So does that mean training on the Saiyans' homeworld that has 10x the earth's gravity is classified as special training?

Sparring isn't counted as that because it's one of the natural ways of improving yourself.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:21 am

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:So does that mean training on the Saiyans' homeworld that has 10x the earth's gravity is classified as special training?

Sparring isn't counted as that because it's one of the natural ways of improving yourself.
Sure.

And yes, it is counted because it's one of the ways the characters improved themselves quickly that Cell doesn't really have access to (apart from his Cell Jrs).
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:06 am

Saiga wrote:
That's too different things. Plus, Gero actually monitored the battles so it doesn't mean that Cell knew the techniques just from having their cells... stuff like the Kamehameha can be used by practically everyone to boot.
You're ignoring what the series shows us just to support your opinion. When Cell used the Kamehameha on Piccolo and then explained how he could use it, Piccolo even mentioned that that explained why the Kamehameha was particularly weak, since Cell could only use it because he had several year old cells from Goku (from a time his kamehameha was several times weaker). So no. Cell gets his abilities, power, potential and techniques from the cells of those fighters. He is basically a clone of all those fighters and a few other things put together but he still has other abilities, like been able to absorb humans and androids like #17 and #18 which provides him with easy power-ups.

By all logic his potential should even be greater than Goku's and the others, since he is basically a clone of them, with all their abilities and techniques and, by all accounts, their potential further improved. Even his ability to zenkai seemed to be greater than Goku's and the others since his zenkai power up after his failed suicide was probably the biggest one in the series.

Edit: noticed just now that this has already been mentioned.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fox666 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:29 am

rereboy wrote:Even his ability to zenkai seemed to be greater than Goku's and the others since his zenkai power up after his failed suicide was probably the biggest one in the series.
Not proportionally, since it was less than two times.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:36 am

Fox666 wrote:
rereboy wrote:Even his ability to zenkai seemed to be greater than Goku's and the others since his zenkai power up after his failed suicide was probably the biggest one in the series.
Not proportionally, since it was less than two times.
There are no official power levels at that point so we can't be sure. All we know is that the zenkai was able to make second-form Cell (who was weak enough to be humiliated by Vegeta with almost no effort) stronger than Perfect Cell ever was and give him an aura equivalent to SSJ2. In my opinion that is probably the biggest zenkai power up in the series, like I said.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:40 am

If you don't want to accept it, then why are we still discussing?

Off-topic: Cell had Nappa's cells in the anime? I remember that he had Kuririn's & Tenshinhan's, but not Nappa's.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fox666 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:42 am

rereboy wrote:There are no official power levels at that point so we can't be sure. All we know is that the zenkai was able to make second-form Cell (who was weak enough to be humiliated by Vegeta with almost no effort) stronger than Perfect Cell ever was and give him an aura equivalent to SSJ2. In my opinion that is probably the biggest zenkai power up in the series, like I said.
It was never explained why Cell returned to his perfect form, but as far the series vaguely goes, it doesn't seems to be related to the Saiyans near-death power-up.

I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:47 am

rereboy wrote:
There are no official power levels at that point so we can't be sure. All we know is that the zenkai was able to make second-form Cell (who was weak enough to be humiliated by Vegeta with almost no effort) stronger than Perfect Cell ever was and give him an aura equivalent to SSJ2. In my opinion that is probably the biggest zenkai power up in the series, like I said.
I really don't think it was bigger than Goku's 33x boost on Namek, but I don't think it would be an indication of potential either way.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Kaboom » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:11 am

That's the trouble of only thinking of power gains in terms of multiples. Instead of thinking "it made him X times more powerful," try thinking "it gave him Y much more power."

"Goku's boost on Namek was a whopping 33x increase, but it only added less than 3 million points."
"Semiperfect Cell's boost gave him a whopping several billion points, but was only a 5x or so increase."

It's a matter of wording.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Xyex » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:11 pm

Yeah, multipliers are nice for simpliticy's sake (espeically in the creation of PL lists), but should only be seriously used/considered when it comes to transformations (and the Kaioken). Nothing else in the series is multiplicative. Not training and not zenkais. Goku's training on his way to Namek wasn't a 9x increase, but an increase of aproximately 80,000 points. Likewise, his zenkai wasn't a 33.3~x increase, but an increase of 2,910,000 points. Which means Cell's increase wasn't 'around 2x' but either 'hundreds of millions' or a 'few billion' depending where you place him (and if you base his increase off of his Semi-Perfect or Perfect form power).
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by hleV » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:48 pm

That's exactly why I believe that Saiyans could have still received some Zenkais and yet it wouldn't have made any difference. Well, 3 million to your base power would make a difference, but such great Zenkais only happen once in a lifetime.

Anyway, Cell seems to have actually transformed into a SSJ2 of sort. Maybe his Zenkai just helped him trigger that transformation.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Xyex » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:07 pm

Yeah. Personally, I've never even considered Super Perfect Cell a zenkai of any description, but merely him transforming into his version of SSJ2. It just makes far more sense, especially considering his return to his Perfect Form appearance.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:08 pm

Kaboom wrote:That's the trouble of only thinking of power gains in terms of multiples. Instead of thinking "it made him X times more powerful," try thinking "it gave him Y much more power."

"Goku's boost on Namek was a whopping 33x increase, but it only added less than 3 million points."
"Semiperfect Cell's boost gave him a whopping several billion points, but was only a 5x or so increase."

It's a matter of wording.
Assuming you believe that the power levels were in the billions by the end of Cell saga.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by CaBrPi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:23 pm

Xyex wrote:Yeah. Personally, I've never even considered Super Perfect Cell a zenkai of any description, but merely him transforming into his version of SSJ2. It just makes far more sense, especially considering his return to his Perfect Form appearance.
Isn't it explicitly stated that Cell's powerup is due to his Saiyan genes? And explicitly a near-death powerup?

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by testing223 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:24 am

Interesting detail:

Image

Kakarotto is sweating when he mentions he killed Kulilin.

If Saligir is a good author, this could be an example of really good subtle foreshadowing. He's posturing in front of Vegeta and everyone but on the inside is freaking out that he did kill his best friend.

If Saligir's not, then it's a contradiction. :/
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Gohaz » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:07 am

(It's a) moot point, and doesn't make a difference. It's open to interpretation.
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