Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[rereboy]

I still don't understand your logic. Dragon Ball Multiverse isn't the only DB fan-manga around, there are the AF fan-mangas, DBNA, and many other. Personally, I'm comparing it with the ones I'm interested, which are the only ones I've read: Dragon Ball AF, Dragon Ball - After the Future, Dragon Ball - New Age, and Dragon Ball EX. And none of these are professional works.

By saying its the "less-shitty" one you are saying that none of them are great or even good. But how can you say that if you are ignoring all works besides them in your review? In order to do that you are necessarily implying that better stuff exists, but since there's no better stuff inside its category you are obviously resorting to your knowledge of works outside its category, even if you aren't consciously doing so.

Its like evaluating the best comedy ever and giving it just an average score. Why? If its the best ever in its own category it certainly deserves a rating close to the top/best, unless you are considering stuff from other categories, like dramas, which make you, consciously or not, lower the score.

In short, sure, its deserves the rating of "less shitty" one when we are considering all works, but it deserves nothing less than "great" in its own category. And is it fair or logical to even review it considering stuff outside of its category? Not really.

[Skar]

By the same token?

"Freeza is a galactic conqueror. I don't see how any villain could surpass him."
"Cell is a combination of all the protagonists, who very consistently, especially Goku, rise to be able to defeat any foe. I don't see how any villain could surpass him."

No I can't consider that the same token. The point about SSJ3 or greater energy being detectable all the way to Other World was brought up multiple times in the Buu saga so it's not something that can be overlooked. There was actually an attempt by Toriyama to explain why Beerus and Whis weren't sensed before because they have a special type of ki undetectable to mortals. They could use a robot or cyborg who can't be sensed. We already have the RR army/Gero, Dr. Wheelo, Hatchiyack, Bio-Broly, Rildo, Baby who is basically an alternate Hatchiyack, and Super #17 who was somehow partially built in hell. We've seen enough robots and cyborgs in canon or other official work and enough in AF stories that this idea is pretty cliche at this point. The other option is random aliens who have had their energy suppressed for decades. The obvious question would be where were these aliens this entire time and how did they get that strong if they're always suppressed for some reason.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

By saying its the "less-shitty" one you are saying that none of them are great or even good. But how can you say that if you are ignoring all works besides them in your review? In order to do that you are necessarily implying that better stuff exists, but since there's no better stuff inside its category you are obviously resorting to your knowledge of works outside its category, even if you aren't consciously doing so.

Its like evaluating the best comedy ever and giving it just an average score. Why? If its the best ever in its own category it certainly deserves a rating close to the top/best, unless you are considering stuff from other categories, like dramas, which make you, consciously or not, lower the score.

In short, sure, its deserves the rating of "less shitty" one when we are considering all works, but it deserves nothing less than "great" in its own category. And is it fair or logical to even review it considering stuff outside of its category? Not really.

I don't understand what you are saying, and I don't think you even understood what I'm saying. I'm not saying that DBM is shitty, I'm saying what other people may think. For some, maybe all the DB fan-mangas (like AF) that they have read are shit, but DBM is just less shitty in their eyes. That's what I'm saying. I'm talking about its own category, not other categories. Not even once did I bring up professional works, so I don't understand what you are talking about.

[TonyTheTiger]

I have three problems with DBM.

1) Good ideas that sometimes have shaky or outright bad execution. Ex: A special about how Cell or Bojack won is in itself not a bad thing but the means by which DBM chooses to show it can be straight up asinine.

2) It often undermines its own premise. It's stated to be a sequel to the "Dragon Ball we know" and each universe represents a single branching point at some place in the story. But then it goes around changing things that don't cause branches and are just done for the hell of it. Ex: Bardock's backstory, Cold's power level, etc. What's worse, most of these changes are completely superfluous. Very few of the changes made so far were necessary for DBM's story to work. Cold doesn't have to be equal to #16 to be able to win against Videl or even a hypothetical Super Saiyan Bardock, for instance.

3) Grammar problems. Although this has gotten much better lately.

So while I do have problems with DBM, they're all localized to only three things. Maybe that's what bugs people the most about it. Not so much that there are problems but that they're easily fixable ones that nevertheless keep showing up every so often.

Also, I'm still pissed that we were shown U9 Trunks only to have him do absolutely nothing. Seriously, he should have fought U13 Vegeta instead of that stupid gender bending crap.

[jjgp1112]

Salagir changing Bardock's psychic powers for no reason other than him being short-sighted and caring more about "cool" and "badass" stuff than a tragic story still irks me.

[Doctor.]

Bardock's psychic powers were changed?

[TonyTheTiger]

Not the powers per se but the circumstances of how he got them was completely rewritten. It's really weird because it's an alternate version of a Bardock story that we never saw the original of.

[ImmaDeker]

By saying its the "less-shitty" one you are saying that none of them are great or even good.

They're all giant bags of shit, so that'd be a fair assessment.

The point about SSJ3 or greater energy being detectable all the way to Other World was brought up multiple times in the Buu saga so it's not something that can be overlooked.

"Goku drank God water. It's so stupid that mortal aliens would be stronger than him."

[Skar]

By saying its the "less-shitty" one you are saying that none of them are great or even good.

They're all giant bags of shit, so that'd be a fair assessment.

What exactly are you doing in the fan works section if every fan manga is a giant bag of shit to you?

The point about SSJ3 or greater energy being detectable all the way to Other World was brought up multiple times in the Buu saga so it's not something that can be overlooked.

"Goku drank God water. It's so stupid that mortal aliens would be stronger than him."

Sorry it seems you're just grasping at straws now. That would be considered an opinion which has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing earlier. SSJ3 level energy or greater being detectable to Other World is not an opinion. It's not my opinion that someone that strong should be sensed from that distance. It's a fact because it's been proven multiple times throughout that saga.

[ImmaDeker]

It's your opinion that topping "power sensed from Other World" stretches credibility in a universe built entirely on powers topping other powers constantly.

But you think your opinion is right, so of course it's a fact. And surely, the history of discourse has never been debating and discussing the validity of each other's opinions.

[Skar]

It's your opinion that topping "power sensed from Other World" stretches credibility in a universe built entirely on powers topping other powers constantly.

But you think your opinion is right, so of course it's a fact. And surely, the history of discourse has never been debating and discussing the validity of each other's opinions.

Dragonball was never intended to go on forever where progressively stronger enemies keep coming one after another after another after another. It's not like Pokemon or Case Closed where the heroes remain the same age regardless of how many years have passed. In Toriyama's recent interviews he states he chose that time frame for Battle of Gods because the most of the characters were at max strength and because they would've gotten too old by the time Uub shows up so he clearly doesn't intend for his story to go on forever.

I never said my opinion was fact. I'm saying that based on how the author ended the story in my opinion it would be difficult to come up with many plausible villains from there. If a fanfic writer can come up with a good villain with respect to the rule that SSJ3 level can be sensed from Other World then by all means go ahead. They can even ignore that rule if they want. Do I think it will result in a good story? No because I've read many fanfics that have done that and I can't say that I can recommend them. There's only so many evil androids built by Gero's computer, mutated Saiyan attacking the Earth, or random super powerful alien who decides to time to wreck havoc after being quiet for many years. To make it clear I think they are free to use whatever idea they want no matter how many times it's been done before. I'm merely stating that a possible reason for why their story doesn't seem to get much recognition is because it isn't bringing anything new to the table and therefore doesn't standout among all the rest. If that author created a thread for their story on this forum would I constantly complain about it on there? No because, unlike some people who say a story is a "giant bag of shit" but still read it to complain, if I don't like the premise of a story then there's no point for me to whine after every new page and annoy the fans who do enjoy it. I feel comfortable talking about it on this thread since it was brought up and most people who like DBM aren't fans of AF-style stories anyway.

[ImmaDeker]

Dragonball was never intended to go on forever where progressively stronger enemies keep coming one after another after another after another.

Dragonball also wasn't intended to go past the initial hunt for the Dragonballs.

Things change. Dragonball's worldbuilding has always been flimsy. You can argue until you're blue in the face about how much sense BIGGERERER enemies don't make, but at the end of the day, Dragonball doesn't actually have consistent enough worldbuilding and internal logic for it to actually be a problem if you're as casual about the Dragon World as the writing itself is.

[Skar]

Dragonball also wasn't intended to go past the initial hunt for the Dragonballs.

Things change. Dragonball's worldbuilding has always been flimsy. You can argue until you're blue in the face about how much sense BIGGERERER enemies don't make, but at the end of the day, Dragonball doesn't actually have consistent enough worldbuilding and internal logic for it to actually be a problem if you're as casual about the Dragon World as the writing itself is.

You ignored everything else I said and focused on that one line...way to miss the entire point of my comment. I'm aware that Dragonball had multiple intended endings. In fact everyone on this forum should be aware of it considering there's a guide on the main site. I was talking about the final ending as in when it was all said and done not while it was still in progress because obviously not every story goes as planned. Dragonball was a story written and drawn by one man for 11 years so there are bound to be some inconsistencies and things that he overlooked. The point we discussed earlier about them being detectable from Other World was consistent throughout that entire saga so if this is what worldbuilding entails then I believe this qualifies as consistent worldbuilding.

In the rest of my comment I said they were free to ignore that rule if they wanted. I was pointing out why I'm not a fan of these stories because they usually end up using the common cliches that I listed above. If you can share an AF story where every villain isn't a rehash of a previous villain then I would love to see it. I've read many and to be honest I can't remember most of them individually because they're ideas blended together. You can swap the saga of one with a random saga of another and you probably couldn't tell that they came form different stories. I'm sure there are good AF stories out there but unfortunately I never really had the pleasure of seeing them. Since you seem to believe this concept of progressively stronger enemies could work then like I said please share some stories that have done a good job at it.

[Saiga]

I agree with Skar here. Dragon Ball may have had some flimsy moments with strength escalation but that doesn't mean fan works can get away with being lazy and illogical. For the most part, Dragon Ball's escalation works quite well without retreading old ground. There are justifications for each thing to come stronger than the last. Most fanworks just don't give a shit about that, and introduce tons of characters that are all top tier with no backstory behind it, or any care put into it. And Skar's point about SS3 being sensed from Otherworld seemed to go completely over your head - that's not just about power but about notice-ability. If SS3 power can be sensed from Earth to Otherworld, all these SS4+ powers running around should've been well known about but that's something most stories just don't bother addressing.

There's no reason characters can't show up stronger than Majin Boo or Gotenks or even Vegetto, but there has to be an actual reason for it. Most AF-esque stories don't bother with this, they just are that strong. Dragon Ball's universe has been fleshed out a lot by the end of the manga (and even more so through anime, movies and games), so there's more to be aware of then when Raditz first showed up, for instance.

As an example there's YoungJiji's AF. I was quite fond of this however the strength logic here is absolutely atrocious. Freeza's son is used as the first villain and starts out stronger than a SS3, then can transform to become stronger than multiple SS4s. Some justification is tried to be given in saying Freeza's race accumulates strength through a hibernation period and his was longer, but it still doesn't work. Then next are demons from Makai, who in their true form are strong enough to beat down SS3 Gotenks and just barely outlast SS4 Gotenks. They're said to be much stronger than Dabra as justification but there's still no actual reason for it.

Many AF-esque fics are the same. New dudes show up, without a care for anything that took place before. Dragon Ball's progression is far better than that, aside from some wonkyness in the first few arcs where things aren't as serious.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess you could out me in the "I don't criticize AF-esque fics as much as DBM because I don't care" crowd. I tend to dismiss them out of hand for the reasons previously stated in this thread, especially the implausibility of all of these randomly stronger than Buu bad guys showing up out of nowhere.

DBM is really the only fan manga to have drawn significant attention from me. This is mostly because of the premise. However, DBM still screws up a lot, with several annoying or outright baffling story decisions. So I'll criticize it when it does something dumb. I'll give it credit where credit is due, but it just so happens that it screws up more often than not.

As I've said previously, I'd rate DBM as a six or seven out of ten.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As an example there's YoungJiji's AF. I was quite fond of this however the strength logic here is absolutely atrocious. Freeza's son is used as the first villain and starts out stronger than a SS3, then can transform to become stronger than multiple SS4s. Some justification is tried to be given in saying Freeza's race accumulates strength through a hibernation period and his was longer, but it still doesn't work. Then next are demons from Makai, who in their true form are strong enough to beat down SS3 Gotenks and just barely outlast SS4 Gotenks. They're said to be much stronger than Dabra as justification but there's still no actual reason for it.

Many AF-esque fics are the same. New dudes show up, without a care for anything that took place before. Dragon Ball's progression is far better than that, aside from some wonkyness in the first few arcs where things aren't as serious.

To be fair, the manga doesn't do a better job, does it? Freeza is so strong in his first form, and then gets much, much stronger than that through transformations just because, the Artificial Humans are so much stronger than Super Saiyans for no reason, Dabra is stronger than Cell just because, and Majin Boo happens to be so incredibly strong because magic. And the Super Saiyan transformations happen to be at around the same level as the villains in the final fights (SS Goku vs Freeza, SS2 Gohan vs Cell, SS3 Goku vs Majin Boo).

[Saiga]

As an example there's YoungJiji's AF. I was quite fond of this however the strength logic here is absolutely atrocious. Freeza's son is used as the first villain and starts out stronger than a SS3, then can transform to become stronger than multiple SS4s. Some justification is tried to be given in saying Freeza's race accumulates strength through a hibernation period and his was longer, but it still doesn't work. Then next are demons from Makai, who in their true form are strong enough to beat down SS3 Gotenks and just barely outlast SS4 Gotenks. They're said to be much stronger than Dabra as justification but there's still no actual reason for it.

Many AF-esque fics are the same. New dudes show up, without a care for anything that took place before. Dragon Ball's progression is far better than that, aside from some wonkyness in the first few arcs where things aren't as serious.

To be fair, the manga doesn't do a better job, does it? Freeza is so strong in his first form, and then gets much, much stronger than that through transformations just because, the Artificial Humans are so much stronger than Super Saiyans for no reason, Dabra is stronger than Cell just because, and Majin Boo happens to be so incredibly strong because magic. And the Super Saiyan transformations happen to be at around the same level as the villains in the final fights (SS Goku vs Freeza, SS2 Gohan vs Cell, SS3 Goku vs Majin Boo).

Dragon Ball does much better than that. The only real problem there is the massive fucking difference in Freeza's forms - that's flat out insane.

The Androids are so strong thanks to a new concept introduced - infinite energy reactors. There's also nothing about Super Saiyan that should make it impossible to surpass. Dabra being stronger, or only as strong as Cell, is because he's Makai's finest - and through Kaioshin's dialogue, he's directly compared to Goku's group as the Makai version of them. The biggest bad in that dimension is comparable to the biggest bad (so far) in the one we know. Nothing too out there about that.

Finally, Boo is an ancient, bizarre monstrosity who was created through magic. Furthermore, his birth was a freak accident, so having such a rare level of power is appropriate.

Characters being evenly matched when it would benefit the plot isn't bad at all. Sure, in a lot of cases it's a coincidence when the powers match up nicely for an even climactic battle, but the only reason to make it uneven would be for the author to show off that he didn't make them equal. Utterly pointless and doesn't serve the story.

Besides, the only time SS2 and Cell were comparable was when Cell was in a SS2-esque power up of his own. Freeza and Goku were comparable in their highest states but that fit nicely with all the other %'s and multipliers thrown around in that fight. SS3 Goku vs Boo only worked when Boo was brought down to that level.

And I've said that Dragon Ball has its problems. There's still a difference between that and flinging shit out at random.

But hell, even if Dragon Ball was just as bad with its strength escalations... that wouldn't make it acceptable for the AF stuff to do the same. It'd just mean both fucked up. Saying that the original source has the same weakness is not at all a defence of the derivative work, and yet it seems to be one of the first responses people use. It doesn't favour the derivative in any way.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Androids are so strong thanks to a new concept introduced - infinite energy reactors.

Was that stated?

There's also nothing about Super Saiyan that should make it impossible to surpass.

I'm not saying that Super Saiyan should be invisible, what I'm saying is that Dr. Gero made them so powerful without any reason. The highest battle power he should have seen was Oozaru Vegeta's 180.000, but he made them over a thousand times more powerful, comfortably far more powerful than any natural known being that ever existed until that point, especially when Super Saiyan by itself is insanely strong compared to thee rest of the universe.

But either way, I'm not saying that you should forgive them, it's just that the original didn't do a better job. Heck, I would even say that the fan mangas did an even better job: Xicor? He is a Saiyan/Kaioshin Halfling. Ize? He stayed longer than Freeza in that fridge, so he grew even stronger. Marble & Chiyoko? They are demons like Dabra, trained for many years & surpassed him, and used a merging technique to become even stronger. Rigor? He is the legendary Saiyan, a mutant. Aladjin? He is one of the highest class of gods.

Freeza is just a strong alien (Was he born that way? Did he train?), Dabra is a strong demon, and the Artificial Humans & Boo are that strong because they were made that strong.

[Pantalones]

The only real problem there is the massive fucking difference in Freeza's forms - that's flat out insane.

Even with Freeza, the only jump in power that's so huge as to be almost nonsensical is going from his 3rd form to his 4th, at least if you're talking about when he's at 50% or higher. Going from 530,000 to a million is pretty reasonable (no bigger of a boost than a basic Kaio-ken, which Goku mastered months ago) and the gap between 2nd and 3rd forms can't really be any bigger than that. And the gap between 3rd and initial-4th doesn't seem to be very big at all, considering that 3,000,000 Goku can stand up to him. But going from single-digit millions (...with even that being untouchable by most of the heroes) to many tens of millions and even over 100 million is where things get a bit silly.

It's kind of bizarre when you think about it--Freeza supposedly uses his lower forms to suppress his power, but apparently he's so much better at suppressing his power in his final form anyway! I mean, condensing 120,000,000 (or 60,000,000, or whatever) down to 3,000,000 is a pretty big thing... in comparison to what he does within the 4th form, his 2nd and 3rd forms hardly seem like much of a suppression at all. I guess Freeza could've easily made his 4th form his "base" state and even gotten a 5th form like Cooler if he had only bothered to try and wasn't so lazy and sure of his "strongest in the universe" status already. XD

[coola]

Unless it will be settled with rock paper scissors game, it's bye bye for Cui