Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Dbzfan94]

Majin Vegeta killed innocents on his own free will. Bra is completely controlled from what we are lead to see.

I highly doubt she's controlled. She's likely wanted to do something like this from the start.

[Jackalope89]

Multiverse isn't exactly a Festival of Champions, for example.

What do you mean? Also Is this comic based on Pokémon Masters?

Bra is no worse than Vegeta and he was forgiven, especially if Bra is really weak minded enough that Babidi is controlling her. Vegeta did this and was in full control of himself.

How so? Majin Vegeta just killed a bunch of humans that later were revived with the DBs, if you're also talking about Saiyan-Namek Vegeta, well sure he was evil, but it's not comparable to him selfishlessly killing people that he cared about like Bra is doing now.

Majin Vegeta killed innocents on his own free will. Bra is completely controlled from what we are lead to see.

Bra is no worse than Vegeta and he was forgiven, especially if Bra is really weak minded enough that Babidi is controlling her. Vegeta did this and was in full control of himself.

Vegeta sliced Gohan in half?

Killing a charcters we all like is no different than killing many we dont care for.

Vegeta only killed people to convince Goku to fight him (and planned on reviving them with the Dragon Balls anyway).

Bra here... Just seems to be a psychopath kept in check only by Vegito. Take daddy dearest out of the equation, she goes on a killing spree, and only saved by some pretty ass-pull moves.

[SSJgogeto]

Majin Vegeta killed innocents on his own free will. Bra is completely controlled from what we are lead to see.

I highly doubt she's controlled. She's likely wanted to do something like this from the start.

Probably:

Spoiler:

[Brikikoz]

Vegeta only killed people to convince Goku to fight him (and planned on reviving them with the Dragon Balls anyway).

Not 100% sure that Vegeta was thinking about using the dragonballs...if anything the point was that he seemed to be psychotically fixated on fighting Goku and nothing else.

[miguelnuva1]

Majin Vegeta killed innocents on his own free will. Bra is completely controlled from what we are lead to see.

I highly doubt she's controlled. She's likely wanted to do something like this from the start.

Gohan is telling her to resist and she hasn't corrected him. Vegeta refused Babidi from the start and didn't do anything to protect him, Bra went out of her way. Her possession is showing to be stronger on her than it was on Vegeta.

What do you mean? Also Is this comic based on Pokémon Masters?
How so? Majin Vegeta just killed a bunch of humans that later were revived with the DBs, if you're also talking about Saiyan-Namek Vegeta, well sure he was evil, but it's not comparable to him selfishlessly killing people that he cared about like Bra is doing now.

Majin Vegeta killed innocents on his own free will. Bra is completely controlled from what we are lead to see.

Vegeta sliced Gohan in half?

Killing a charcters we all like is no different than killing many we dont care for.

Vegeta only killed people to convince Goku to fight him (and planned on reviving them with the Dragon Balls anyway).

Bra here... Just seems to be a psychopath kept in check only by Vegito. Take daddy dearest out of the equation, she goes on a killing spree, and only saved by some pretty ass-pull moves.

Vegeta wanted to fight Goku and be brought back to his old ways because he was afraid of starting a family. Vegeta was trying to be full Evil again.

Bra hasn't show anywhere in DBM that she wants to go on a milling killing spree. She's spoiled and she's arrogant but she wasn't a killer unless someone did something to her family first.

[FoolsGil]

I can't believe this conversation is happening again.

Bra hasn't accepted evil into her heart. Whatever you want to justify or use to argue against that, examples, or dialogue included, does not matter. Bra has not accepted evil into her heart. She's a victim in this, whether you like it or not. I hate her too. This series would be easier if she was evil. But she's not.

[miguelnuva1]

I can't believe this conversation is happening again.

Bra hasn't accepted evil into her heart. Whatever you want to justify or use to argue against that, examples, or dialogue included, does not matter. Bra has not accepted evil into her heart. She's a victim in this, whether you like it or not. I hate her too. This series would be easier if she was evil. But she's not.

Bra is a hated charcters killing off liked characters so people are not going to forgive her as easy as Vegeta despite her being a slave as far as we've seen a Vegeta doing it on his own.

Same argument happened with Kylo Ren and Vader.

[Fionordequester]

Same argument happened with Kylo Ren and Vader.

Not quite the same deal. Vader was born a fundamentally good person, with a traumatic background that gave birth to fatal flaws. He thrust into a life where almost everyone was paranoid or critical of him, for one reason or another. His only 100% positive role model... was the Dark Lord of the Sith, who took advantage of all those weaknesses to trick him into what was (essentially) a Dark Side-induced blackout. By the time said blackout was over, it was too late. Vader had destroyed his whole life via his own two hands; He had nothing else but rage & power to latch on to.

Kylo was... a complete jerk. His own parents were afraid of him, as was Luke. Luke himself deduced that Snoke had turned his heart, regardless of whether or not he'd ignited his lightsaber (though that didn't help). Up till Rise of Skywalker, he showed no indication of wanting to change. Where Anakin wanted to save his mother, Kylo straight up murdered his own dad.

They're not the same character. Vader he never (intentionally) killed his own family, nor was he born a jerk like Kylo was.

[miguelnuva1]

Same argument happened with Kylo Ren and Vader.

Not quite the same deal. Vader was born a fundamentally good person, with a traumatic background that gave birth to fatal flaws. He thrust into a life where almost everyone was paranoid or critical of him, for one reason or another. His only 100% positive role model... was the Dark Lord of the Sith, who took advantage of all those weaknesses to trick him into what was (essentially) a Dark Side-induced blackout. By the time said blackout was over, it was too late. Vader had destroyed his whole life via his own two hands; He had nothing else but rage & power to latch on to.

Kylo was... a complete jerk. His own parents were afraid of him, as was Luke. Luke himself deduced that Snoke had turned his heart, regardless of whether or not he'd ignited his lightsaber (though that didn't help). Up till Rise of Skywalker, he showed no indication of wanting to change. Where Anakin wanted to save his mother, Kylo straight up murdered his own dad.

They're not the same character. Vader he never (intentionally) killed his own family, nor was he born a jerk like Kylo was.

Vader killed children and trillions of lives but fans loved when Anakin came back. Kylo killed Han and people were up in arms saying he couldn't be redeemed when TFA came out. TLJ is what established a lot of what was wrong with Kylo and Star Wars likes to explain that Dark and light haves are considered two different people.

Regardless if we compare the reaction of Vader being redeemed to what Kylo was getting in TFA a lot of fans didn't want Kylo redeemed becasue he killed Han where Vader never killed anyone we really liked other than Obi-Wan who I would argue wasn't as popular before the PT.

From what little see of Ben Solo in episode ix he wasn't better or worse than Anakin. Also Vader strangled his wife and tried to kill his "brother" before he and Anakin were fully separated.

[Fionordequester]

Vader killed children and trillions of lives but fans loved when Anakin came back. Kylo killed Han and people were up in arms saying he couldn't be redeemed when TFA came out. TLJ is what established a lot of what was wrong with Kylo and Star Wars likes to explain that Dark and light haves are considered two different people.

IIRC (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), Ben Solo's deal was his parents split up, his lineage made him more susceptible to the Dark Side (another way of saying "he was born with a tendency towards evil"), and Snoke groomed him with thoughts like "Luke treats you like a child", "Luke is holding you back", "Luke fears your power", "You have so much room to grow if you'd just accept the Dark Side", yada yada yada.

That's all that really went into "turning his heart" before Luke mucked things up. Basically, he was a rebellious teenager with too much power and feelings of isolation. He wasn't like Anakin, with a laundry list of childhood traumas, imagined failures (his mother dying to the Tusken Raiders, as well possible PTSD brought on by the Clone Wars). Nothing unusual was pushing him to murder his own father.

Regardless if we compare the reaction of Vader being redeemed to what Kylo was getting in TFA a lot of fans didn't want Kylo redeemed becasue he killed Han where Vader never killed anyone we really liked other than Obi-Wan who I would argue wasn't as popular before the PT.

I did want him to be redeemed, actually. Even so, it's hard to ignore how much easier (and earlier) his heel-turn was, compared to Anakin.

From what little see of Ben Solo in episode ix he wasn't better or worse than Anakin. Also Vader strangled his wife and tried to kill his "brother" before he and Anakin were fully separated.

Again, Anakin's turn was essentially a Dark Side induced blackout, brought on to prevent his wife from dying like his mother did. He kills Mace after Sidious feigns weakness, keels over in guilt in shame for a moment, then comes to the conclusion that there was no going back. He goes all in at that point, still desperate to save his wife (sunk cost fallacy), gets drunk on the Dark Side, beats his wife in a fit of drunken rage and paranoia, then wakes up with his life in shambles.

How else does one reconcile his turn from...

"I killed Mace! What have I done?! "

...to...

"I am now slaughtering little children, and plan on ruling the universe (which I never expressed any desire to do before)"?

EDIT: Besides "bad writing", I mean?

[Fionordequester]

Actually, there's another facet to Kylo I missed. He is a man of horrifyingly powerful emotion, and little mental strength to reign said emotions in. So to sum up...

Anakin/Vader: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Also, he can't accept loss."

Ben/Kylo Ren: "My emotions are too scary for me. Maybe if I kill my Dad, my emotions will die with him? Also, I'm tempted by all the same things most teenagers are tempted by."

[Kanassa]

Regardless if we compare the reaction of Vader being redeemed to what Kylo was getting in TFA a lot of fans didn't want Kylo redeemed becasue he killed Han where Vader never killed anyone we really liked other than Obi-Wan who I would argue wasn't as popular before the PT.

No, pretty sure the predominant reason people didn't want Kylo redeemed was because any redemption done would be underdevloped and cheap because the story has done jack shit to build it and is constantly retconning what Kylo's character was. To the point that Rise of Skywalker featured Kylo literally patting himself on the back and saying he's forgiven.

[Fionordequester]

No, pretty sure the predominant reason people didn't want Kylo redeemed was because any redemption done would be underdevloped and cheap because the story has done jack shit to build it and is constantly retconning what Kylo's character was. To the point that Rise of Skywalker featured Kylo literally patting himself on the back and saying he's forgiven.

Of course, a lot of that's down to Abrams & Johnson not cooperating with each other like they should've. Not that Lucas was hot stuff himself, but he was at least consistent.

[TobyS]

So we finally got the page that was already leaked....

So 48 hours before the story finally moves another inch...
We are at the tail end, even if this fails she only has two more to kill, unless she starts torture porning U9.

[Brikikoz]

Of course, a lot of that's down to Abrams & Johnson not cooperating with each other like they should've. Not that Lucas was hot stuff himself, but he was at least consistent.

Pretty much, yeah, having multiple writers/directors competing has proven to be a disaster.

One thing to consider in the Vader/Kylo talk:

People can forgive/ignore war criminals who kill millions easier than they can forgive someone who kills one person.

Good example is how Vegeta slaughtered planets, meaning lives into the billions, whereas Bra has killed about 7 people directly.

[Dbzk1999]

Regardless if we compare the reaction of Vader being redeemed to what Kylo was getting in TFA a lot of fans didn't want Kylo redeemed becasue he killed Han where Vader never killed anyone we really liked other than Obi-Wan who I would argue wasn't as popular before the PT.

No, pretty sure the predominant reason people didn't want Kylo redeemed was because any redemption done would be underdevloped and cheap because the story has done jack shit to build it and is constantly retconning what Kylo's character was. To the point that Rise of Skywalker featured Kylo literally patting himself on the back and saying he's forgiven.

Eh? How was it retconning his character constantly? There was a lot of weird things throughout the trilogy, but If anything, his constant inner conflict and others’ attempts to redeem him was something that was pretty consistent throughout the three films (if anything, I’d say there was more of an emphasis on the possibility of redemption for him compared to how Vader was in the original trilogy)

[Fionordequester]

People can forgive/ignore war criminals who kill millions easier than they can forgive someone who kills one person.

Good example is how Vegeta slaughtered planets, meaning lives into the billions, whereas Bra has killed about 7 people directly.

Context matters. Vader's path to darkness started for reasons that people can easily relate to, and Vegeta was raised in a culture that encouraged violence and villainy (in fact, Freeza probably would've killed him, if he'd refused to kill anyone).

[Kanassa]

Regardless if we compare the reaction of Vader being redeemed to what Kylo was getting in TFA a lot of fans didn't want Kylo redeemed becasue he killed Han where Vader never killed anyone we really liked other than Obi-Wan who I would argue wasn't as popular before the PT.

No, pretty sure the predominant reason people didn't want Kylo redeemed was because any redemption done would be underdevloped and cheap because the story has done jack shit to build it and is constantly retconning what Kylo's character was. To the point that Rise of Skywalker featured Kylo literally patting himself on the back and saying he's forgiven.

Eh? How was it retconning his character constantly? There was a lot of weird things throughout the trilogy, but If anything, his constant inner conflict and others’ attempts to redeem him was something that was pretty consistent throughout the three films (if anything, I’d say there was more of an emphasis on the possibility of redemption for him compared to how Vader was in the original trilogy)

Spoiler:

His motivation, his backstory, what deeds he's actually done, his accountability, his influence, etc. These details would be rewritten throughout the trilogy. Hell, in the comics they just up and went "Oh no, he had NOTHING to do with the destruction of Luke's academy or students; Snoke force crushed and killed them all from the other end of the Galaxy... Oh wait, no, that's Palptine now." The majority of Kylo's character comes with an asterisk or a maybe. His fall to the darkside is literally "Snoke had a vague hold over him.". Anything that's solid about him is inconsistent and everything else is left to very vague statements that are only carried by Adam Driver's performance.

His inner conflict was less a character conflict and more writers playing tug of war with his motivations. Though yes, there was a lot more emphasis on the idea of his redemption compared to Vader, but Vader's still felt more consistent and well developed in one film than Kylo's did across three, especially since Force Awaken and Last Jedi definitely seem to want to push Kylo more down the path of being too far gone and forge his own dark path in order to not just retread Vader.

People can forgive/ignore war criminals who kill millions easier than they can forgive someone who kills one person.

Good example is how Vegeta slaughtered planets, meaning lives into the billions, whereas Bra has killed about 7 people directly.

Context matters. Vader's path to darkness started for reasons that people can easily relate to, and Vegeta was raised in a culture that encouraged violence and villainy (in fact, Freeza probably would've killed him, if he'd refused to kill anyone).

I mean, I'd say you can't really compare the two stories here. Dragon Ball and Star Wars are rather different stories in their presentation and expectation. Evil actions matter much more to us in Star Wars than the DBZ Universe. I think it's more that Vegeta is constantly getting his shit kicked in, constantly getting that smug smirk wiped off his face and facing some form of catharsis for his evil fuck ups. So, even though he is very stable, he isn't frustrating. With Multiverse Bra, she doesn't face nearly as much humiliation, so it's frustrating to watch her do all this even if she's under mind control. Any blow against her is small and temporary in how it affects or reflects her. It also helps that Vegeta going Majin was a cornerstone of his character arc, where as with Bra it just feels like another plot point.

Spoilered because I just realized how off topic we're getting.

Spoiler:

And with Vader and Kylo I don't think it's a matter of relating. In the Original Trilogy, we didn't have Vader's backstory, we just had that he was seduced to the dark side somehow by Palpatine. Throughout the final movie, it's communicated to us how he feels like there's no hope for him and that he is trapped in this position and that the supposedly good man he once was is dead, only realizing he's wrong when his parental instincts break through his hatred. Kylo's disadvantage is that, in being the sequel, we know the characters who supposedly raised him. So, when his backstory and reasoning is left underdeveloped, it makes you question more "How did this guy raised by Leia, Hand and Luke during a time of mostly peace get so messed up about what Anakin wanted?" which makes his fall feel dumber and thus his redemption cheaper. Which, again, gets worse when the pinnacle of his redemption... Is basically him telling himself that he is forgiven for his deeds. Vader was never forgiven, his redemption was more about Luke giving him a chance to die as Anakin instead of Vader, about proving why Luke was the future of the jedi.

[FoolsGil]

[Brikikoz]

If there's one thing everyone can agree on, whether it's Kylo or Vegeta...if you want a villain to be redeemed, they'd better have one strong arc.

I am giving Salagir leeway because we're still in the "evil Vegeta planet killer" phase of her arc and DBM has a long long plotline with many more characters' stories.

If DBZ had ended with, say, Freeza, Vegeta wouldn't be a fan favorite and would've died a villain with no redemption.