DragonBall Z Abridged

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Regarder » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:30 am

You can't compare peaceful protests against states that then agree to give up instead of losing face and legitimacy by crushing them, to being passive in the face of an all powerful monster that only wants to have a good fight while killing everyone, when you are the only one with enough power to stop them. Not all situations are the same. In some situations being a pacifist is very good, in others it is very bad.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Zephyr » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:51 am

Dragono wrote:But his paralysis and inaction is a result of his pacifism.
Yes, and his mistake was that his pacifism needn't have resulted in paralysis and inaction. Gohan is indeed being a coward, and his simply saying "but I'm a pacifist" is indeed just patting himself on the back. He could get his hands dirty, engage in the sport of it, and convince Cell that keeping the Earth around means that there will always be thrilling sparring partners for him. That might not work, but it's better confirm that it won't work prior to doing nothing.
Ex-Dubbie369 wrote:I know we probably shouldn't be talking politics here, but the way 16 spoke truly sounded like he was making a real-world political statement to the audience, based on the absolutely not-actual-reflection-of-reality that is DBZ. I mean, I agree with Scott's point that when in the face of actual, pure evil, that sometimes violent action is necessary (hell, I'm down with anti-fascist tactics), but the sort of rhetoric of "you think you're better than everyone else because you claim to be a pacifist" is the same sort of rhetoric that is used when people try to protest going to war, which is almost never in the interest of anyone but the rich and powerful.

Ok, got that off my chest. Won't get political anymore.
NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Maybe it's a cultural thing with the USA now. But for me what 16 told Gohan just seems like a message I've heard in other media. The most basic example probably being Spider-Man. For Civil War in the MCU they rewrote the old "Great Power, Great Responsibility" speech. "If you can do the things I do, but don't, and then the bad things happen. Then it's my fault". It seems a bit of a hyperbole to compare Gohan being the only person with the power to save all his friends and family from dying, but choosing to not because he's a pacifist, to war and political tensions in the world right now
I mean, even with the old phrasing, the Spider-Man quote is a fairly standard ethical argument that inaction is a type of action. The most salient example of this to me has always been the drowning kid thought experiment: you pass by a lake, or a bathtub, and there's a small child drowning. Nobody else is around. If you do nothing, the kid drowns. If you save the kid, they survive. Your inaction in this case would have the same consequence as if you had tossed him into the water yourself. While, yes, you technically did not throw the kid in, it's a distinction without a difference; you might as well have thrown the kid in. Bringing it back to Gohan, his doing nothing while Cell hurts others is morally indistinct from hurting them himself.

Now, regardless of if 16's speech was political or not (and while Kaiser clarified that the intent was not political, contemporary political happenings indeed jumped immediately to mind when I was watching), it's still certainly philosophical. Specifically, he's making an argument in the realm of ethics: how ought we live? What is the right thing to do? Ethics is never inherently political, but social and political philosophy is essentially ethics applied on a larger scale. It can be really difficult to keep them distinct, especially when the specific ethical matters being discussed are usually only thought of by most people in the context of politics.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Do you really think it's reasonable to try a peaceful protest against someone like Freeza or Cell?
Of course not. These aren't real human beings; they are literally evil mustache-twirling cartoon psychopaths who can fire nuclear arsenals out of their fingertips, who will try to wipe out humanity if backed into a corner. However, 16's speech is presented as a genuine real world argument against genuine real world pacifism (or, at least, certainly came across as one), not against the absurdity of trying to use real world pacifism against a someone who is cartoonishly evil.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Dragono » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:01 am

sintzu wrote:
KaiserNeko wrote:There's no political message.
I didn't think there was anything political about it but I'm not surprised some think it is as we now live in a time where even funerals are politicized. Great job by the way. :thumbup:
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:24 am

KaiserNeko wrote:There's no political message.
Death to the author, motherfucker. 8)


Regardless of the intentions of writing 16's speech, it doesn't change the fact that the context of said speech remains relevant to what's going on in the political sphere.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:28 am

Dragono wrote:
sintzu wrote:
KaiserNeko wrote:There's no political message.
I didn't think there was anything political about it but I'm not surprised some think it is as we now live in a time where even funerals are politicized. Great job by the way. :thumbup:
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:40 am

Zephyr wrote:Of course not. These aren't real human beings; they are literally evil mustache-twirling cartoon psychopaths who can fire nuclear arsenals out of their fingertips, who will try to wipe out humanity if backed into a corner. However, 16's speech is presented as a genuine real world argument against genuine real world pacifism (or, at least, certainly came across as one), not against the absurdity of trying to use real world pacifism against a someone who is cartoonishly evil.
Some people IRL are 'cartoonishly evil'. I could name dozens from history.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:54 am

I do not believe that 16's speech is an outright condemnation of pacifism. I think in general non-violence and De-esculating situations are the way to go.

HOWEVER

I also believe that there are moments where non-violence isn't the right choice, when there's no other option but to fight. Will people care when you don't simply because you're a pacifist.

You can absolutely have pacifist ideals, while also being realistic and understanding when all other options have been exhausted and you have to fight to save the people you care about. It's why Chaplains in the military are also combat trained--because if they have to, they will take a life to protect the people under their care.

16 calls Gohan a coward, not because he's a pacifist--but because Gohan believes he truly is better than everyone else. His friends are literally getting tortured to death in front of him, and he tries to stand by his pacifism ideals when it's really because he's terrified. And yet, as Cell himself points out, both Krillin and Yamcha, are significantly weaker than their opponents, but they still give it their all. And if they're willing to give up their lives in a moment's notice--

The hell does that make Gohan?

A coward.


AND ONE MORE THING: A lot of this reminds me of Killua during the Chimera Ants arc, namely him being trained to always look for a way out if he can't win, so he ends up instinctively holding back. Compare that to Gon, whose this shows Goku character always gives it his all no matter what. In many ways, this is TFS Gohan's central problem. Because he's smart, he's always trying to find a way out of these circumstances that don't involve fighting. Whereas Goku and the others, who have been engaged in numerous life and death battles, don't think--they just do. So TFS seems to implyiing that their version of Gohan could access his real power at any time, he just has so many defense mechanisms in place that he always holds back.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Kaboom » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:19 pm

Just a quick aside... the awesome "Day of Fate" English cover is now available on all the usual non-Apple music platforms.

//Clicks 'Buy' on Google Play with the force of a thousand pissed-off SS2 Gohans//
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:19 pm

It's a very trick thing really. Really you'll never always know what the right choice is, will it be wrong or will your actions have consequences you didn't foresee. Being a coward or a least a pacifist can be just as good as someone who will never stop fighting. Sometimes mercy is the right choice, sometimes it truly is better to have killed.

In this case, not wanting to fight and trying to talk it out simple wont work. Cell was never going to stop and he would not change his mind, even later when he found out he could lose he chose to kill everyone rather then submit. Simple put Cell was the one who drew the line and refused to budge. He has to be killed because there is no other way of stopping him. In the very next arc we see a case were being a coward was the right thing, Mr. Satan was able to change Buu simple by being a coward and becoming his friend. Things only went south when someone willing to kill and hurt got involved.

One of my faviort moments like this is from Doctor Who.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PXdwqlJ19U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4xm9NHNUf8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9o4BEziI
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Zephyr » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:07 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Some people IRL are 'cartoonishly evil'.
The idea of "evil" is a needlessly archaic and reductive way of conceptualizing actual real world human behavior. Like, I get it, a lot of people have done some utterly fucked up things. It's a convenient label, and it's thus incredibly tempting to fall back on, but that's about all it has going for it. Treating it as more than that deprives these matters of the level of critical examination that they are due.

Most real people in real life have the capacity for genuine empathy. Tragically, be it through neurological deficiency, stunted development as a child, or powerfully reinforced notions of tribalism, this capacity can be significantly knee-capped. In any case, we're never dealing with "evil", but disorder in the human brain, with mental illness. When it comes to violence toward the mentally ill, outside of cases where it is absolutely necessary in order to restrain them and prevent them from harming themselves or others, it is utterly barbaric.

Now, do Freeza and Cell have the capacity for genuine empathy? I mean, theoretically. Cell's an artificially created lifeform, though, so he might actually be designed to lack the capacity. Regardless, unlike real world people who don't have nuclear-arsenals-but-worse at their literal fingertips, we're talking about cartoon characters (one of whom may or may not even have the capacity for empathy) who do have nuclear-arsenals-but-worse at their literal fingertips. These guys need to be restrained, immediately, and restraining them would require somehow significantly weakening them (to, like, sub-wuxia levels), knocking them out, or killing them. There's also a confirmed afterlife, so there's theoretically more room and time for repentance, rehumanization, and rehabilitation on their parts even if they are killed. The nature of death in Dragon Ball fundamentally alters the context in which this conversation even takes place.

But don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that Gohan shouldn't have fought Cell; he had to, due to the absurd cartoonish circumstances. 16 didn't make an argument for fighting within these absurd cartoonish circumstances, though. He didn't say "Cell literally can't be made to care", or "there's time to rehabilitate him after he's not primed to wipe out the planet in an instant" or "dude we're in a cartoon about fighting and this is the climax of the story arc, it's gotta happen". He made an argument for fighting in general, based on a really rudimentary understanding of pacifism, which wasn't terribly compelling, to me, someone who is a pacifist.

Everyone can say "talking wouldn't have worked" until the cows come home, and with Cell I'll agree, but as 16 presents pacifism ("doing nothing"), even talking goes beyond pacifism! The scene presents Gohan's pacifism as genuine pacifism, and with Gohan indeed being an idiot, paints pacifism as genuinely idiotic. The weakness of the argument contrasted (in a bad way) with the emotional payoff of the subsequent Super Saiyan 2 transformation. It kind of reminded me of the end of Wonder Woman, where it turns out the only way to fight war is with love, but......rather than the kind of love that Gandhi and King were getting at, it's just that she really wanted to bone Chris Pine, and that gave her strength. Like, I doubt that's what they were actually trying to go for, and I doubt TFS were trying to imply that talking is beyond the bounds of pacifism, but in both cases, the philosophical ideas were presented poorly.

It's obviously not the end of the world, though. I neither read Dragon Ball, nor watch Dragon Ball Z Abridged, to see in-depth philosophical arguments brought to life by or through the characters. Their aim is to entertain, and they nailed that.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Kanassa » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:33 pm

I don't see 16's speech as a general thing, it's a Gohan specific thing.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:48 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Some people IRL are 'cartoonishly evil'.
The idea of "evil" is a needlessly archaic and reductive way of conceptualizing actual real world human behavior. Like, I get it, a lot of people have done some utterly fucked up things. It's a convenient label, and it's thus incredibly tempting to fall back on, but that's about all it has going for it. Treating it as more than that deprives these matters of the level of critical examination that they are due.

Most real people in real life have the capacity for genuine empathy. Tragically, be it through neurological deficiency, stunted development as a child, or powerfully reinforced notions of tribalism, this capacity can be significantly knee-capped. In any case, we're never dealing with "evil", but disorder in the human brain, with mental illness. When it comes to violence toward the mentally ill, outside of cases where it is absolutely necessary in order to restrain them and prevent them from harming themselves or others, it is utterly barbaric.

Now, do Freeza and Cell have the capacity for genuine empathy? I mean, theoretically. Cell's an artificially created lifeform, though, so he might actually be designed to lack the capacity. Regardless, unlike real world people who don't have nuclear-arsenals-but-worse at their literal fingertips, we're talking about cartoon characters (one of whom may or may not even have the capacity for empathy) who do have nuclear-arsenals-but-worse at their literal fingertips. These guys need to be restrained, immediately, and restraining them would require somehow significantly weakening them (to, like, sub-wuxia levels), knocking them out, or killing them. There's also a confirmed afterlife, so there's theoretically more room and time for repentance, rehumanization, and rehabilitation on their parts even if they are killed. The nature of death in Dragon Ball fundamentally alters the context in which this conversation even takes place.

But don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that Gohan shouldn't have fought Cell; he had to, due to the absurd cartoonish circumstances. 16 didn't make an argument for fighting within these absurd cartoonish circumstances, though. He didn't say "Cell literally can't be made to care", or "there's time to rehabilitate him after he's not primed to wipe out the planet in an instant" or "dude we're in a cartoon about fighting and this is the climax of the story arc, it's gotta happen". He made an argument for fighting in general, based on a really rudimentary understanding of pacifism, which wasn't terribly compelling, to me, someone who is a pacifist.

Everyone can say "talking wouldn't have worked" until the cows come home, and with Cell I'll agree, but as 16 presents pacifism ("doing nothing"), even talking goes beyond pacifism! The scene presents Gohan's pacifism as genuine pacifism, and with Gohan indeed being an idiot, paints pacifism as genuinely idiotic. The weakness of the argument contrasted (in a bad way) with the emotional payoff of the subsequent Super Saiyan 2 transformation. It kind of reminded me of the end of Wonder Woman, where it turns out the only way to fight war is with love, but......rather than the kind of love that Gandhi and King were getting at, it's just that she really wanted to bone Chris Pine, and that gave her strength. Like, I doubt that's what they were actually trying to go for, and I doubt TFS were trying to imply that talking is beyond the bounds of pacifism, but in both cases, the philosophical ideas were presented poorly.

It's obviously not the end of the world, though. I neither read Dragon Ball, nor watch Dragon Ball Z Abridged, to see in-depth philosophical arguments brought to life by or through the characters. Their aim is to entertain, and they nailed that.
I don't believe they were saying that pacifism is always bad, but stubbornly sticking to it in extreme situations like this one is foolish.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:21 pm

Kanassa wrote:I don't see 16's speech as a general thing, it's a Gohan specific thing.
Yeah, at least initially that's what I considered. I felt like 16 at that moment became a mouthpiece of every fan's frustration at Gohan going forward in the series. Every time that he didn't keep up with his training knowing he lived on a world that was a powderkeg of trouble because of pacifism or laziness or both, or every time that he messed up something when he clearly had the upper hand because of unearned arrogance from previously unlocking a powerup, one of which he didn't even earn.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by zDBZ » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:33 pm

Gokuman1993 wrote:Hey, KaiserNeko, I dunno if you'll read this because you gotta be busy, but....

I've been thinking about this after the episode and I'm kinda surprised that you didn't have everyone else call out Piccolo during his Call Out to Goku's terrible parenting, because Piccolo....sure wasn't the best dad replacement to Gohan either. I mean, he did kill his father (thus being partly responsible for Goku not being there for his son), then kidnapped him and told him (harshly and loudly) that his dad's dead to his face and tried to train him to be his weapon for world domination (well, until the Saiyans showed up....) and he did all this when Gohan was 4 years old! I mean don't you get me wrong (don't you get me wrong!) but, unless you're gonna bring up in the next part or after that, why didn't you write that in the episode? I mean, Goku's dumb but even he would call BS on Piccolo while also knowing full well Green Dad is right.

Otherwise, awesome episode and can't wait for the next parts <3 You guys are the best :)
Given the way Piccolo and Goku have developed in DBZA, I don't see that Goku would ever call BS on someone else's parenting. But I've never understood this criticism of the original scene either.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Zephyr » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:57 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I don't believe they were saying that pacifism is always bad, but stubbornly sticking to it in extreme situations like this one is foolish.
Right, but again, my point is that what Gohan was stubbornly sticking to is passivity, not pacifism. Yet, it is earnestly presented as just that. It's a distinction that's very important to me, and I see it taken for granted more often than not, so it probably bothers me a lot more than others.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Fizzer » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:15 am

I don't think we're meant to take what #16 said as universal truth to apply in our lives. I think we're supposed to take it as him saying only what he needed to say to Gohan in that moment to spur him into action. He wouldn't have said it, especially not that way, in a different situation.

As viewers, especially when stories deal with absolute evil, we do have a tendency to look for absolute good on which to model ourselves. I think that's why the early DBZ dubs changed Goku's character so much - people understood that kids would think whatever Goku does is the right course of action and they should model their lives around it, because he's "the good guy". I catch myself doing this all the time, thinking that the show writers are telling me to do what "the good guys" do.

At the moment especially, with everything becoming so political being one symptom, it feels like our species is screaming a collective cry of "what the f*** is going on!?" and searching for some kind of guidance about what we're supposed to be doing with the lives and circumstances we've found ourselves in. We turn to entertainment media for that because we feel pretty short on options.

And TFS, you guys may not have intended to project politically with episode, it may have been solely about the shortcomings of these characters, but you really got people talking. For any form of fiction that's gotta be a mark of success. Well done guys, stick to your guns.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Scsigs » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:24 am

Fizzer wrote:You know, you guys may not have intended to project politically with episode, it may have been solely about the shortcomings of these characters, but you really got people talking. For any form of fiction that's gotta be a mark of success.
I mean, they've sparked as much conversation by accident in 1 22-minute part of an episode that 13 Reasons Why wishes it had in 2 (soon to be 3 for some reason) seasons of 26 50-60 minute episodes on purpose. THAT'S gotta mean something when a show made to spark discussion about bullying & suicide sparks more controversy & conversation about its execution than it does about the topics it presents to the audience than a web series parody of a popular anime from the 80s & 90s.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:41 am

This is THE episode I've been waiting for, for TFS to dub and wow, was it beautifully done! I couldn't have asked for better. :)

FUNimation and TOEI should really look into making official DVD releases of TFS's Dragon Ball Z version because their fan-dub is really impressive.
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Play Store music is on 320 Kbps and MP3 but considering MP3 is an outdated format, in my opinion and others around the web, iTunes' M4A is the better pick of the two. The bitrate may be lower (it's variable) but it's a newer codec and comes complete with information and the cover of the track or album.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Fizzer » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:54 am

JohnnyCashKami wrote: FUNimation and TOEI should really look into making official DVD releases of TFS's Dragon Ball Z version because their fan-dub is really impressive.
If TFS still want to touch up some of their older episodes like they've mentioned before, that could really work. Toei has a serious beef about DBZA though, so they wouldn't want to legitimise it in any way.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:58 am

Fizzer wrote:If TFS still want to touch up some of their older episodes like they've mentioned before, that could really work. Toei has a serious beef about DBZA though, so they wouldn't want to legitimise it in any way.
It'd be going one step closer to making it official. TFS already begun with their Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~ track on iTunes and other marketplaces.

Speaking of which, the bitrate of the track on iTunes is much higher (346 kb/s) than it is on Play Store (320 k/bs) and with a superior codec (M4A).

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