DragonBall Z Abridged

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Regarder » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:05 am

Zephyr wrote:paints pacifism as genuinely idiotic.
Sometimes it is, though. I'd argue more often than not it is. Pacifism applies to more than just outright war. If the police were pacifistic with criminals, they'd never be able to overpower and apprehend them. We have to guard against unjustified brutality on one end of the scale, but pacifism is on the other, and going to the extreme of completely 100% removing force from the table is only appropriate in a narrow bunch of circumstances. Martin Luther King was a good enough speaker to convince people without having to use force personally, but ultimately the state (rightly) used force to combat the force of segregation, and so the national guard allowed little black girls to attend desegregated schools against crowds of protestors. Gandhi came at the right time, when the British Empire was already weakened by World War II and receeding the world over; non-violent protests would have previously been put down by force at the height of the Empire.

So really, real world pacifism is even more impractical than pacifism in fiction. At least in a fictional story, you might only have to convince one guy who holds immense power, whereas in the real world systems of power depend on many many people who can't all be convinced. In the examples people always go back to in civil rights or anti-colonial protests in India, the pacifistic approach worked inside a narrow context where it convinced the people wielding the force of law to either start wielding it in a more righteous way (civil rights), or to rescind it (Britain leaving India in '47). Of course, pacifism can't work on Cell because he's an evil monster, but in the real world, pacifism only works inside of an artificial context to begin with. Sometimes pacifism works, but most of the time it doesn't, unless you decontextualize "peaceful" to apply to things that inherently require enforcement, for good or bad.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:06 am

Regarder wrote:
Zephyr wrote:paints pacifism as genuinely idiotic.
Sometimes it is, though. I'd argue more often than not it is. Pacifism applies to more than just outright war. If the police were pacifistic with criminals, they'd never be able to overpower and apprehend them. We have to guard against unjustified brutality on one end of the scale, but pacifism is on the other, and going to the extreme of completely 100% removing force from the table is only appropriate in a narrow bunch of circumstances. Martin Luther King was a good enough speaker to convince people without having to use force personally, but ultimately the state (rightly) used force to combat the force of segregation, and so the national guard allowed little black girls to attend desegregated schools against crowds of protestors. Gandhi came at the right time, when the British Empire was already weakened by World War II and receeding the world over; non-violent protests would have previously been put down by force at the height of the Empire.

So really, real world pacifism is even more impractical than pacifism in fiction. At least in a fictional story, you might only have to convince one guy who holds immense power, whereas in the real world systems of power depend on many many people who can't all be convinced. In the examples people always go back to in civil rights or anti-colonial protests in India, the pacifistic approach worked inside a narrow context where it convinced the people wielding the force of law to either start wielding it in a more righteous way (civil rights), or to rescind it (Britain leaving India in '47). Of course, pacifism can't work on Cell because he's an evil monster, but in the real world, pacifism only works inside of an artificial context to begin with. Sometimes pacifism works, but most of the time it doesn't, unless you decontextualize "peaceful" to apply to things that inherently require enforcement, for good or bad.
Okay, first, you really should use a better example than pacifist cops can't stop bad guys. That doesn't explain your view at all, it's a 'no shit everyone agrees and knows that' deal.

Second, you're right that pacifism alone can't stop an empire. Which is why active pacifism is the name of the game. The pacifists stand up and use non violent protests, trusting that the media will catch everything that unfolds. And when the state comes down, usually hard, the media gets it out on the news, shaming the government, convincing the ones in office who weren't actively participating but ignored it or didn't know,or just didn't want the bad information to spread to get off their butts and starts changing things.

That's how a pacifist fights. Those black girls wouldn't have been able to get into the desegregated schools with the government's help without the two pronged attack that was pacifism and the media. Same thing with Gandhi. No one would have known about his starve strikes without the media reporting, the Brits' hold would have likely lasted longer as well.

Now of course Cell doesn't have any shame, but if we're talking real world, pacifism, ACTIVE pacifism is more practical, from the late 20th century forward. You can bring up other factors like great orators or a weakened government, but at the end of the day, these were institutions that lasted centuries, and they were forced to change. It's only because we are decades detached after the oppressed actually won that anyone can make the statement "pacifism is impractical, pacifism doesn't work." in my honest opinion.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Scsigs » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:08 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:This is THE episode I've been waiting for, for TFS to dub and wow, was it beautifully done! I couldn't have asked for better. :)

FUNimation and TOEI should really look into making official DVD releases of TFS's Dragon Ball Z version because their fan-dub is really impressive.
Sorry, but this isn't a fan dub. It's an edited/abridged parody. This is the thing about TFS fans like you that I hate. You assume this show is a fan dub rather than what it is; a parody & should be taken as canon, even though it's not the original material outside of the overall plots & the animation used. Sure, it's really good & is a series that most fans of the regular series should at least check out & would probably love. However, putting it out on DVD isn't ever a thing that would make sense, or would ever happen. Also, not everyone would want that. Just ask the Kai dub fans who, for some reason, hated that TFS dubbed over the Cell Games Reenactment originally. One of them said to me that a parody like DBZA should never be given, & I'm not kidding, that much power...even though Sabat has had the guys in the DB Xenoverse series for some of the created characters' voices, which I hope will continue to XV3, since the games aren't controlled by Toei & they got in before, & that their appearance in Kai wasn't at all an intrusion.

Not only that, but the stuff they've put in for the cultural references, like visual edits, music, & dialogue, would either have to be edited out, or it would cost FUNi a bit of money to properly license. I mean, just look at Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, which needed Warner Bros to step in & buy the rights to the series for the dub, & I'm assuming the official translations of the manga, to be able to keep in cultural references in the dialogue from the original version, which were largely to American musicians & pop culture, which were fine because they were seen as shout outs in Japanese, but the West has a different perception of that kind of stuff because of copyright law & companies loving money too much. So, it would cost too much to do.

So, no. Not only would it never happen, but it should also never happen. Toei HATES TFS anyways, so that's even more reason.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by worldmonsters » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:04 pm

Zephyr wrote:
KaiserNeko wrote:I do believe pacifism in the face of immediate violence when you are the only one able to defend not only yourself, but others, is a failing. But if you disagree, you will of course take issue with Android 16's assessment.
My issue with 16's assessment is that it tries to paint pacifism as inherently passive. Being non-violent does not entail being non-active, as Gandhi and King went to excruciating lengths to demonstrate. Gohan's paralysis and inaction, rather than his pacifism, is the issue. Yet, 16 conflates the two, giving legitimacy to a woefully common misconception, and hugely deflating the intended poignancy of what he's saying.

Gohan conflating the two works, because he's still young and learning. Cell co-signing the conflation and subsequently calling Gohan a coward also works, because he's the bad guy trying to get a rise out of him. 16, however, is supposed to be the voice of reason, so his poor grasp on, and/or half-baked analysis of, the subject sticks out. The broad strokes still work, because 16's speech (and subsequent death) take Gohan from passivity to activity, but the conversation about pacifism itself is sloppily handled. Granted, that's assuming that it's done and over with; if there's more to be done with it over the course of the following two parts, and 16's isn't presented as the singularly most wise and informed take, then that could be really interesting. Could even leave the subject on the back burner until Mr. Satan confronts Buu (assuming Season 4 becomes a reality), since that's really the only time I can think of where the series proper bothers to even mildly deconstruct its martial arts story in that way.
Something felt off about Android 16's speech and I think this is it. I don't think it's anywhere near detrimental to the story, though and I really really like Gohan's arc in this! The pacifism arc actually makes the bird symbolism make more sense. It makes Android 16's jokes and recall about birds make sense. It's honestly really clever. Same with basically every other bit of this episode! Yes, sometimes it's just serious and there are no jokes, for example, somehow I was surprised there was no joke when the Cell Jr attacked Krillin, it was completely straight, but honestly... this is probably the final episode of the show and definitely the final episode of this arc. Callbacks and seriousness make sense. This is a totally logical way to end a show. Team Three Star callback worked and was finally funny (sorry TFS :b)! The dodge joke worked, cause of course you needed one. There were also PLENTY of jokes. I thought the Cake = Keikaku joke worked very well, because it's a Goku twist on it. The whole Gohan transforming scene was handled 1:1, without edits, and it works cause TFS earned it. After 60 episodes, which must be well over 15-20 hours of content, this is just earned.

Guys, we're not even into how they will handle Vegeta and Krillin and Trunks, and Goku's departure. I think so far TFS has handled this arc with care and intelligent writing and I definitely trust them to bring this to a satisfying close, especially after part 1.

And that were my incoherent thoughts at the moment :) All my support TFS, all my support! (I should be re-activating my patreon donation! :o deactivated for a little while because I was in money troubles but those times are deffo over)

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Zephyr » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:21 pm

Regarder wrote:
Zephyr wrote:paints pacifism as genuinely idiotic.
Sometimes it is, though. I'd argue more often than not it is. Pacifism applies to more than just outright war. If the police were pacifistic with criminals, they'd never be able to overpower and apprehend them. We have to guard against unjustified brutality on one end of the scale, but pacifism is on the other, and going to the extreme of completely 100% removing force from the table is only appropriate in a narrow bunch of circumstances. Martin Luther King was a good enough speaker to convince people without having to use force personally, but ultimately the state (rightly) used force to combat the force of segregation, and so the national guard allowed little black girls to attend desegregated schools against crowds of protestors. Gandhi came at the right time, when the British Empire was already weakened by World War II and receeding the world over; non-violent protests would have previously been put down by force at the height of the Empire.

So really, real world pacifism is even more impractical than pacifism in fiction. At least in a fictional story, you might only have to convince one guy who holds immense power, whereas in the real world systems of power depend on many many people who can't all be convinced. In the examples people always go back to in civil rights or anti-colonial protests in India, the pacifistic approach worked inside a narrow context where it convinced the people wielding the force of law to either start wielding it in a more righteous way (civil rights), or to rescind it (Britain leaving India in '47). Of course, pacifism can't work on Cell because he's an evil monster, but in the real world, pacifism only works inside of an artificial context to begin with. Sometimes pacifism works, but most of the time it doesn't, unless you decontextualize "peaceful" to apply to things that inherently require enforcement, for good or bad.
I think you're misunderstanding how pacifism works, and what counts as "work" in the first place. Firstly, pacifism, and non-violence in general (specifically as Gandhi and King utilized it), was long term, rather than short term. It's about gradually breaking cyclical violence. It's not a guaranteed magic wand "stop this instance of violence". It's "make this instance of violence less likely to blowback and perpetuate".

Secondly, it's not strictly about using reason to convince others. It's about self-sacrifice, it's about talking to someone in a way that makes them identify with you, it can entail treating someone belligerently violent with respect and like a person where nobody else will (because they are belligerently violent). Things that will be more likely to cause the violent person to feel guilt and remorse, to empathize with their potential or actual victims. This is why painting it as "passive" and "doing nothing" is utter nonsense, because actually going through with it requires putting oneself in harm's way. No, there's no guarantee that you yourself in any individual instance of pacifism, of non-violent resistance, will walk away unharmed, or even alive. One has to have the courage to stand up, and willingly and knowingly put oneself in harm's way to protect others, to treat their killer like a human being, with respect. It necessitates a willingness to suffer and die, all while treating the one causing the suffering and death with respect and dignity. Doing so will render it more likely that they feel remorse and guilt for their action, and not repeat what they did.

As I understand it, this is what Gandhi described as "Satyagraha", or "Soul Force". It is essentially the awakening of empathy within the violent perpetrator, forcing them to identify with their victims. Anticipating the obvious "it wouldn't have worked on X person or group" reply, it's all a matter of degree. The more a group of person dehumanizes another and masks what they're doing (to both themselves and others) with euphemism, the more detached, alienated, and abstract their victims' suffering is, the more "soul force" is necessary to break in there and cause them to identify with their victims. Goebbels knew exactly what he was doing, when he methodically worked to create a situation where more and more "soul force" would be required to stop what they were doing (obviously, he wasn't likely thinking of this in Gandhian terms, but the same rules apply). I said above that the aim is primarily at the long term, but if enough "soul force" is applied, logically, non-violence can work in the short term and immediate as well.

This is not something that's trivial to do. To be able to temper and control one's impulsive violent reactions to something (a defensive reaction to a threat) requires a great amount of education and discipline. There is technique involved, it requires knowledge of different social ques and quirks depending on the social group that a would-be violent assailant is a part of. The aim is to foster long-term solidarity, in a way that violence absolutely does not, because violence is cyclical, and always begets revenge. It's not easy, it's not quick, and it's not simple, but it's far more sustainable in the long run, and far more ethically justifiable.

This is getting mega off topic, though (apologies to Kaiser Neko and the moderation team). I'm down to continue talking about this stuff via PM if anyone is actually interested.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:10 pm

Only time it was ever justifiable to even entertain the idea of an official TFS release was the first 5 seconds of the Dragon Box trailer if you saw it at Otakon 2009
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:11 pm

Scsigs wrote:Sorry, but this isn't a fan dub. It's an edited/abridged parody. This is the thing about TFS fans like you that I hate. You assume this show is a fan dub rather than what it is; a parody & should be taken as canon, even though it's not the original material outside of the overall plots & the animation used. Sure, it's really good & is a series that most fans of the regular series should at least check out & would probably love. However, putting it out on DVD isn't ever a thing that would make sense, or would ever happen. Also, not everyone would want that. Just ask the Kai dub fans who, for some reason, hated that TFS dubbed over the Cell Games Reenactment originally. One of them said to me that a parody like DBZA should never be given, & I'm not kidding, that much power...even though Sabat has had the guys in the DB Xenoverse series for some of the created characters' voices, which I hope will continue to XV3, since the games aren't controlled by Toei & they got in before, & that their appearance in Kai wasn't at all an intrusion.

Not only that, but the stuff they've put in for the cultural references, like visual edits, music, & dialogue, would either have to be edited out, or it would cost FUNi a bit of money to properly license. I mean, just look at Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, which needed Warner Bros to step in & buy the rights to the series for the dub, & I'm assuming the official translations of the manga, to be able to keep in cultural references in the dialogue from the original version, which were largely to American musicians & pop culture, which were fine because they were seen as shout outs in Japanese, but the West has a different perception of that kind of stuff because of copyright law & companies loving money too much. So, it would cost too much to do.

So, no. Not only would it never happen, but it should also never happen. Toei HATES TFS anyways, so that's even more reason.
I thought about whether calling it a fandub or a parody but decided with the former since TFS is taking it seriously and as a fandub, it's definitely far superior to FUNimation's old Z dub. Hell, TFS even dubbed Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~ which FUNimation never did, and left most of the insert songs either missing (their own fault or TOEI not providing it) or not dubbing it and playing it in Japanese.

As for if TOEI will make a deal with FUNi and TFS for a DVD release of it, that's up to them. Don't speak for them since you're not one of their employees. You're a customer, the most you can do is assume what they may do, not what they'll actually do.

P.S. I'm not a TFS fan. Haha, I've not seen DBZA in years but decided to check out the Gohan SSJ2 episode since I was really looking forward to that.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Scsigs » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:50 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:I thought about whether calling it a fandub or a parody but decided with the former since TFS is taking it seriously and as a fandub, it's definitely far superior to FUNimation's old Z dub. Hell, TFS even dubbed Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~ which FUNimation never did, and left most of the insert songs either missing (their own fault or TOEI not providing it) or not dubbing it and playing it in Japanese.

As for if TOEI will make a deal with FUNi and TFS for a DVD release of it, that's up to them. Don't speak for them since you're not one of their employees. You're a customer, the most you can do is assume what they may do, not what they'll actually do.

P.S. I'm not a TFS fan. Haha, I've not seen DBZA in years but decided to check out the Gohan SSJ2 episode since I was really looking forward to that.
Dude, I'm not just assuming Toei hates them. They REALLY hate them. At least once a year, they try to take down their channel because they think what they're doing is copyright infringement (whether it is or not is for lawyers & a judge to decide, since all abridgers skirt the line, since what they make is a parody, but they also use their footage & music to make it. Hell, VegettoEX, the owner of this forum, even said to me when I tried to make an argument for it not being copyright infringement that I don't know what I'm talking about. For the fact, I've done research myself into this topic, so I feel I do to an extent) because Japan doesn't really have fair use laws, since their copyright laws are so strict. Luckily, we're in America, where things are less strict, for the most part.
Then, when it was found out that they were in the original recordings for the scene in Kai TFC Cell Games Reenactment thanks to a Toonami promo for the series, Toei forced FUNimation to both remove their dialogue & to not hire the main members of TFS (I say "main" because all of their secondary actors & actresses still work for FUNi all the time) to not hire them for a wile, greylisting them from the company. Lani revealed this in one of their gaming livestreams almost a year ago. Now, THIS was a dick move on their parts just because they make a parody of their series, which has done more good for them than bad.
So, yeah Toei hates them. I'm a customer, but you don't have to work for a company to know about their stances on stuff, just ask me about Sony's obvious stranglehold on cross-play, which is an obvious ploy to just sell PS4s, some time.

And, it's not a fandub. It's a parody. They take the footage, edit it, & rewrite the scripts to throw in jokes. Parody.

When it comes to dub songs, Z was a MUCH different production than Kai & Super were. If they gave Z a redub, which I think they should, I'm sure they'd have more of the insert songs & maybe dub them, but I'm assuming that Toei doesn't have any high fidelity versions of those songs isolated from the episodes, or instrumentals, hence why FUNi had to record a new instrumental version of the original DB's theme song when they dubbed it into English, yet GT, Kai, & Super have their English themes just needed new vocals & that they didn't have more of the insert songs that weren't from the regular Kikuchi score. Hence the disconnect there.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:27 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Scsigs wrote:Sorry, but this isn't a fan dub. It's an edited/abridged parody. This is the thing about TFS fans like you that I hate. You assume this show is a fan dub rather than what it is; a parody & should be taken as canon, even though it's not the original material outside of the overall plots & the animation used. Sure, it's really good & is a series that most fans of the regular series should at least check out & would probably love. However, putting it out on DVD isn't ever a thinwg that would make sense, or would ever happen. Also, not everyone would want that. Just ask the Kai dub fans who, for some reason, hated that TFS dubbed over the Cell Games Reenactment originally. One of them said to me that a parody like DBZA should never be given, & I'm not kidding, that much power...even though Sabat has had the guys in the DB Xenoverse series for some of the created characters' voices, which I hope will continue to XV3, since the games aren't controlled by Toei & they got in before, & that their appearance in Kai wasn't at all an intrusion.

Not only that, but the stuff they've put in for the cultural references, like visual edits, music, & dialogue, would either have to be edited out, or it would cost FUNi a bit of money to properly license. I mean, just look at Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, which needed Warner Bros to step in & buy the rights to the series for the dub, & I'm assuming the official translations of the manga, to be able to keep in cultural references in the dialogue from the original version, which were largely to American musicians & pop culture, which were fine because they were seen as shout outs in Japanese, but the West has a different perception of that kind of stuff because of copyright law & companies loving money too much. So, it would cost too much to do.

So, no. Not only would it never happen, but it should also never happen. Toei HATES TFS anyways, so that's even more reason.
I thought about whether calling it a fandub or a parody but decided with the former since TFS is taking it seriously and as a fandub, it's definitely far superior to FUNimation's old Z dub. Hell, TFS even dubbed Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~ which FUNimation never did, and left most of the insert songs either missing (their own fault or TOEI not providing it) or not dubbing it and playing it in Japanese.

As for if TOEI will make a deal with FUNi and TFS for a DVD release of it, that's up to them. Don't speak for them since you're not one of their employees. You're a customer, the most you can do is assume what they may do, not what they'll actually do.

P.S. I'm not a TFS fan. Haha, I've not seen DBZA in years but decided to check out the Gohan SSJ2 episode since I was really looking forward to that.
it'll never happen in a million years. Dude, it is an unlicensed FAN PARODY. There's not a universe where an official release would be beneficial for either party, especially since its been available for free for a decade. And it's rife with stuff that Toei and Funi would have to pay out the ass to license.

Even comparing it to Funination's Z Dub in any way is utterly preposterous and not even worthy of an argument. One is an actual dub. The other is a parody that is made with absolutely no intentions of being an adaptation of the Japanese version, and if Funimation produced an actual dub like that, it would be absolutely reviled. They're not comparable because they're two completely separate things serving entirely different purposes. The only things remotely comparable is the voice acting, and subjectively speaking TFS doesn't even get close until the second season anyway.

There's no value in an official release, and in fact it would actually destroy it because at that point you could say goodbye to it being available for free on YouTube after 10 whole years.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Scsigs » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:17 am

Huh. Wonder what happened to FoolsGil's response.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:09 am

Akira Toriyama wrote:“So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.”
Huh. Wonder if that quote was the inspiration for the plot twist involving Goku?
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:15 am

Weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men.
And this is basically Gohan. Gohan is finally going to man up.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by MonkeyKing16 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:40 pm

I didn't get the joke about cake until a lot later. I feel like an idiot for not getting it earlier.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:39 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
And this is basically Gohan. Gohan is finally going to man up.
Sorry, could not help it.
Yes, Gohan manhandles Cell in the original series until his arrogance blinds him.
I eagerly await to see how TFS handles that part.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:04 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:[ calling it a fandub or a parody
Those are not mutually exclusive
but decided with the former since TFS is taking it seriously and as a fandub,
Parts are played seriously. It’s still largely a parody.


As for if TOEI will make a deal with FUNi and TFS for a DVD release of it, that's up to them.
They won’t. It’s unauthorized use of their footage. Funimation paid actual licensing fees. TeamFourStar did not

Don't speak for them since you're not one of their employees. You're a customer, the most you can do is assume what they may do, not what they'll actually do.
I believe it’s called basic fucking common sense

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Noah
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Noah » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:45 pm

Saw the episode again with subtitles and I probably the only who think #16 speech was a little overblow. Especially the part that he mentions Trunks and Vegeta, I mean how he's supposed to know that?
Noah wrote:...didn't like much the remixed cover Unmei no Hi (this version would suit better), but that's probably because leaving the original you guys would be issued by copyrights.
Oh, now that I saw that I didn't included the theme that I suggested on my previous post, though that now that I heard it I have my doubts if would actually suit that better :lol:
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

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JohnnyCashKami
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:45 am

Bought TFS version of "Day of Fate" on iTunes as it is the best compressed release out there but would double dip for a lossless FLAC on Bandcamp.

The song really is quite something.

Thank you so much, TFS!

Dbzk1999
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:03 am

Noah wrote:Saw the episode again with subtitles and I probably the only who think #16 speech was a little overblow. Especially the part that he mentions Trunks and Vegeta, I mean how he's supposed to know that?
It’s not that hard to tell how bad of a father Vegeta was. Trunks practically calls him a bad father when Vegeta lets cell go to absorb 18, and most likely saw Trunks attack his own father

Can’t talk much bout the trunks but in particular though

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zDBZ
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by zDBZ » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:51 am

The full version of "Day of Fate" is haunting, beautiful, possibly my favorite thing to come out of TFS to date...and makes me upset about the way the Buu saga ended all over again.

MonkeyKing16
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by MonkeyKing16 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:52 am

Hearing Day of Fate took some time to get used to due to me being too used to the Japanese version, now I don't mind listening to it more.

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