DragonBall Z Abridged

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:26 pm

Chuquita wrote:Maybe instead of Saitama it'll be Genos.
Team Four Star seems to be pretty reluctant to touch One Punch Man. Besides, each video has featured the main character of the opposing series. It's not like they would've had Knuckles show up without Sonic, right?

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Chuquita » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:53 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
Chuquita wrote:Maybe instead of Saitama it'll be Genos.
Team Four Star seems to be pretty reluctant to touch One Punch Man. Besides, each video has featured the main character of the opposing series. It's not like they would've had Knuckles show up without Sonic, right?
This is true. The only reason I'm even guessing it is because:
BTW, Friday's packs a serious punch.
made me think of One Punch Man. But then Kaiser eluded that it wasn't Saitama, so that got me thinking Genos.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:16 pm

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the next one is Arale.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by omegalucas » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:15 pm

Chuquita wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote:
Chuquita wrote:Maybe instead of Saitama it'll be Genos.
Team Four Star seems to be pretty reluctant to touch One Punch Man. Besides, each video has featured the main character of the opposing series. It's not like they would've had Knuckles show up without Sonic, right?
This is true. The only reason I'm even guessing it is because:
BTW, Friday's packs a serious punch.
made me think of One Punch Man. But then Kaiser eluded that it wasn't Saitama, so that got me thinking Genos.
Also, Saitama's silhouette appears at the end of Light's episode.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:43 pm

rereboy wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Personally I love OPM, but I can't stand the annoying Saitama fanboys.
Saitama is basically a gag/parody character. There's no beating gag characters. Even in Super, Vegeta admitted not being a match for Arale (because she's a gag character).
That's just an excuse used by fanboys. Arale has feats that are way above anything in OPM.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:54 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
That's just an excuse used by fanboys. Arale has feats that are way above anything in OPM.
Actually, it's just stating facts. One-punch man is mostly a gag/parody manga and Saitama is clearly a gag/parody character. Characters like that "bend" logic by their very nature, even talking about feats is pretty much useless since we can't actually rely on logic with them... they will just do whatever.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:03 pm

rereboy wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
That's just an excuse used by fanboys. Arale has feats that are way above anything in OPM.
Actually, it's just stating facts. One-punch man is mostly a gag/parody manga and Saitama is clearly a gag/parody character. Characters like that "bend" logic by their very nature, even talking about feats is pretty much useless since we can't actually rely on logic with them... they will just do whatever.
Again, worthless cop-out. By what he's actually shown, Saitama is weaker than Raditz.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:11 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Again, worthless cop-out. By what he's actually shown, Saitama is weaker than Raditz.
It's pretty relevant facts, actually. And the guys at TeamFourstar are well aware. As KaiserNeko stated in the last page, and I basically agree: "Especially considering that Saitama is a character who, by and large, operates via a running gag within his universe of being unbeatable. It's partially thematic, and partially comedic, but ultimately? Saitama has no place fighting other universe' characters and losing, or really... fighting them at all."

But, sure, it's all just cop-outs and fanboys.

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:16 pm

rereboy wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Again, worthless cop-out. By what he's actually shown, Saitama is weaker than Raditz.
It's pretty relevant facts, actually. And the guys at TeamFourstar are well aware. As KaiserNeko stated in the last page, and I basically agree: "Especially considering that Saitama is a character who, by and large, operates via a running gag within his universe of being unbeatable. It's partially thematic, and partially comedic, but ultimately? Saitama has no place fighting other universe' characters and losing, or really... fighting them at all."

But, sure, it's all just cop-out and fanboys.
It is. Narrative tropes have nothing to do with analysis if you want to be logical about it. Otherwise ScrewAttack's whole "Superman has no limits whatsoever and can never be beaten by anyone" is a valid argument. There is a good quote about this kind of thing, from a Star Trek/Star Wars website:
Good Guys Always Win

I hear this argument all the time. It usually sounds like this:

"You've produced a lot of numbers and calculations and theories to explain why the Empire should be able to beat the Federation, but this is fiction, not reality. In fiction, the good guys always win. Therefore, the Federation would destroy the Empire."

Other variations sound like:

"The Federation always finds a way out of every bad situation. This would be no exception."
"The Federation has a lot of ingenuity and has always used that ingenuity to succeed."

This is a cute argument, but it grows a bit tiresome with repetition, and it's really not much of an argument. Yes, good guys always win. But that's because they're always pitted against bad guys that they can handle. Pit them against bad guys that are out of their league, and that situation changes.

For example, let's take John McClane from "Die Hard" versus Megatron from "the Transformers." If some insane person wanted to imagine a fight between the two, would you take McClane's side? Would you argue that he'd use his ingenuity to somehow defeat a 60 foot tall armoured robot that can crumple tanks with his bare hands?
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:37 pm

That really has nothing to do with this.

What you are talking about is basically the "rules" of a franchise being applicable to another universe, like, for example, Buffy being stronger than any human in her franchise and thus being stronger than any human in another franchise despite the existence of humans in that franchise that are clearly stronger looking at their feats, which wouldn't make much sense.

That is not the problem with gag characters. The problem with gag characters is that their abilities and feats simply don't obey enough logic and consistency for an actual term of comparison with another character that is not a gag character to be really possible.

We can have a sense of ability and power to Cell and his limits that is basically consistent and logical. For Saitama, all the sense we really get is that he just does whatever he wants physically with no actual difficulty at all and no sense of limits to him (toon force, basically) because that's how gag characters operate.

We can try to force a comparison, but when there's no real logic regarding the abilities and feats of at least one of the characters, it would be just an exercise in futility.

(Also, ScrewAttack doesn't really say that Superman can never be beaten by anyone. What they said was that the intent behind the idea of the characters of Goku and Superman were very different. While Goku was all about surpassing his limits, the idea of the character of Superman was about a god-like living and dealing with humans and his power. There's a sense of superiority at the core of Superman's character that doesn't exist at the core of Goku's character. They never meant to say with that that Superman is absolutely the strongest being in his franchise... they even mention quite a few times beings from DC that are superior in their videos. They do say "no limits" in the video, mind you, but, of course, we can take the "no limits" thing literally or realize what they were trying to say).

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:04 pm

rereboy wrote:That really has nothing to do with this.
It has everything to do with it.
What you are talking about is basically the "rules" of a franchise being applicable to another universe, like, for example, Buffy being stronger than any human in her franchise and thus being stronger than any human in another franchise despite the existence of humans in that franchise that are clearly stronger looking at their feats, which wouldn't make much sense.

That is not the problem with gag characters. The problem with gag characters is that their abilities and feats simply don't obey enough logic and consistency for an actual term of comparison with another character that is not a gag character to be really possible.
Except they do here. Saitama has clear feats and showings, and clear limitations (can't fly, needs air to breathe, unskilled in martial arts, etc.). He's not radically inconsistent, he's just stronger than anyone else so far shown in his own setting. You could put Raditz in his place in the series and he'd win every fight Saitama was in with just as much, if not more ease.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:30 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
rereboy wrote:That really has nothing to do with this.
It has everything to do with it.
What you are talking about is basically the "rules" of a franchise being applicable to another universe, like, for example, Buffy being stronger than any human in her franchise and thus being stronger than any human in another franchise despite the existence of humans in that franchise that are clearly stronger looking at their feats, which wouldn't make much sense.

That is not the problem with gag characters. The problem with gag characters is that their abilities and feats simply don't obey enough logic and consistency for an actual term of comparison with another character that is not a gag character to be really possible.
Except they do here. Saitama has clear feats and showings, and clear limitations (can't fly, needs air to breathe, unskilled in martial arts, etc.). He's not radically inconsistent, he's just stronger than anyone else so far shown in his own setting. You could put Raditz in his place in the series and he'd win every fight Saitama was in with just as much, if not more ease.
Gag characters aren't simply characters with limits that aren't shown. Every background character in every franchise ever has no limits shown, and that doesn't make them gag characters, for example. Gag characters are characters that, from what is presented, we understand that their abilities and power aren't really bound by logic and consistency. We get that about Saitama. We never get that about Radditz, even if he had just left Earth and we never heard from him again.

Also, not showing off a particular ability doesn't mean anything. Popeye is also never shown flying and yet he punched Bluto so hard that he broke the time stream and de-aged into an infant. Is he not a gag character? Yes. Is he bound by logic and consistency? No. Does it make much sense to compare him to a non gag character? No.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:30 pm

I just thought of something for the western animated character. What about Deadpool?

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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:06 pm

rereboy wrote:Gag characters aren't simply characters with limits that aren't shown. Every background character in every franchise ever has no limits shown, and that doesn't make them gag characters, for example. Gag characters are characters that, from what is presented, we understand that their abilities and power aren't really bound by logic and consistency. We get that about Saitama. We never get that about Radditz, even if he had just left Earth and we never heard from him again.
And once again, this is a cop-out. You can't just call a character a 'gag character' and claim you can ignore all of the usual rules, especially when he's not even any such thing. He's the main character of a comedy-focused series, but he's not Bugs Bunny or something. All of his abilities are well-established, and it's just shown that he's stronger than anyone else yet encountered in his own setting. That's it. There's no negative continuity where the events of one episode/chapter have no bearing on the next, there are tons of characters who take things seriously, etc. It's a lame excuse. You might as well claim Goku is a 'gag character' since Dragonball has a lot of gags and humor in it, if you want to ignore all of the series parts. Even a real gag character, like how you mentioned Arale, who comes from a much less serious setting than OPM, is shown to have limits (Beerus was going to kill her).
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:22 pm

Rereboy's point is it's completely pointless to compare a story that operates on some sort of logic to a series that operates on none. It's fruitless. If Saitama entered the DBZ universe, he'd lose to Raditz (but then again, we don't know. That's the entire crux of rereboy and Kaiser's argument. We don't know what Saitama's physical limits are, and the nature of the series makes it difficult to deduce unless we see it. We can only go off of the show's "logic," which is that whatever obstacle comes in front of Saitama, he's overwhelmingly stronger than. Which is why arguing over it is so crazy to me). If Raditz dropped in the OPM universe, he'd get beaten in one punch, man. Or maybe whoever was in charge of such a crossover wouldn't care jack shit about any of that and just drop in a character whose logic is completely at odds with the established universe's logic and watch hilarity ensue, which would be, y'know, the fun option. Like what Toei did with Arale.

Now can we get this back on topic?
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:43 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Rereboy's point is it's completely pointless to compare a story that operates on some sort of logic to a series that operates on none. It's fruitless. If Saitama entered the DBZ universe, he'd lose to Raditz (but then again, we don't know. That's the entire crux of rereboy and Kaiser's argument. We don't know what Saitama's physical limits are, and the nature of the series makes it difficult to deduce unless we see it. We can only go off of the show's "logic," which is that whatever obstacle comes in front of Saitama, he's overwhelmingly stronger than. Which is why arguing over it is so crazy to me). If Raditz dropped in the OPM universe, he'd get beaten in one punch, man. Or maybe whoever was in charge of such a crossover wouldn't care jack shit about any of that and just drop in a character whose logic is completely at odds with the established universe's logic and watch hilarity ensue, which would be, y'know, the fun option. Like what Toei did with Arale.

Now can we get this back on topic?
And I say that's a silly argument. It's like saying that since Iron Man's tagline is the "invincible" Iron Man, he can beat anyone. Or since the Power Rangers theme song includes the line "no one can ever take them down" then they can beat anyone.

We don't know what Saitama's upper limits are, so that means we have to go with what he has demonstrated so far. And the best he has shown so far is inferior to Raditz. Case closed.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by Noah » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:52 pm

rereboy wrote:Even in Super, Vegeta admitted not being a match for Arale (because she's a gag character).
Oh, I thought you didn't have interest on Super
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:39 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Rereboy's point is it's completely pointless to compare a story that operates on some sort of logic to a series that operates on none. It's fruitless. If Saitama entered the DBZ universe, he'd lose to Raditz (but then again, we don't know. That's the entire crux of rereboy and Kaiser's argument. We don't know what Saitama's physical limits are, and the nature of the series makes it difficult to deduce unless we see it. We can only go off of the show's "logic," which is that whatever obstacle comes in front of Saitama, he's overwhelmingly stronger than. Which is why arguing over it is so crazy to me). If Raditz dropped in the OPM universe, he'd get beaten in one punch, man. Or maybe whoever was in charge of such a crossover wouldn't care jack shit about any of that and just drop in a character whose logic is completely at odds with the established universe's logic and watch hilarity ensue, which would be, y'know, the fun option. Like what Toei did with Arale.

Now can we get this back on topic?
And I say that's a silly argument. It's like saying that since Iron Man's tagline is the "invincible" Iron Man, he can beat anyone. Or since the Power Rangers theme song includes the line "no one can ever take them down" then they can beat anyone.

We don't know what Saitama's upper limits are, so that means we have to go with what he has demonstrated so far. And the best he has shown so far is inferior to Raditz. Case closed.
That doesn't really have anything to do with this discussion, and what I've been saying is that it's pointless to fret about who would win to begin with. This isn't science. It would be a waste of time to even do a Saitama/Anything crossover if he didn't operate on the silly narrative logic of his show. That's the whole character - not that he's just strong, but game-breakingly strong in a way that makes no sense at all. The only real way to judge Saitama's strength would be on what overwhelms him...and nothing has, so we can't use that either. And then we'd start getting into the usual parade of arguments that completely miss the point of narratives and characters ("What if they went to space?" "Goku can just blow up the sun!")

"Feats" are completely irrelevant, and frankly irrelevant in most show-by-show comparisons. The only thing we know about Saitama's physical strength is that he's overwhelmingly stronger than everyone we've seen him face thus far. We don't know how much stronger he is, just that he's stronger. If Raditz or Goku or somebody else dropped in the OPM-verse, who knows? Maybe all of their crazy training just can't measure up to 3 years of push-ups, sit-ups, and jogging.

If Saitama isn't stupidly-invincible, he isn't Saitama. The narratives are absolutely important here. We're comparing a bunch of cartoon characters, here. I say instead of giving a shit about "feats" and which specific cartoon logic we're following we write an interesting story.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by TekTheNinja » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:19 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Rereboy's point is it's completely pointless to compare a story that operates on some sort of logic to a series that operates on none. It's fruitless. If Saitama entered the DBZ universe, he'd lose to Raditz (but then again, we don't know. That's the entire crux of rereboy and Kaiser's argument. We don't know what Saitama's physical limits are, and the nature of the series makes it difficult to deduce unless we see it. We can only go off of the show's "logic," which is that whatever obstacle comes in front of Saitama, he's overwhelmingly stronger than. Which is why arguing over it is so crazy to me). If Raditz dropped in the OPM universe, he'd get beaten in one punch, man. Or maybe whoever was in charge of such a crossover wouldn't care jack shit about any of that and just drop in a character whose logic is completely at odds with the established universe's logic and watch hilarity ensue, which would be, y'know, the fun option. Like what Toei did with Arale.

Now can we get this back on topic?
And I say that's a silly argument. It's like saying that since Iron Man's tagline is the "invincible" Iron Man, he can beat anyone. Or since the Power Rangers theme song includes the line "no one can ever take them down" then they can beat anyone.

We don't know what Saitama's upper limits are, so that means we have to go with what he has demonstrated so far. And the best he has shown so far is inferior to Raditz. Case closed.
That doesn't really have anything to do with this discussion, and what I've been saying is that it's pointless to fret about who would win to begin with. This isn't science. It would be a waste of time to even do a Saitama/Anything crossover if he didn't operate on the silly narrative logic of his show. That's the whole character - not that he's just strong, but game-breakingly strong in a way that makes no sense at all. The only real way to judge Saitama's strength would be on what overwhelms him...and nothing has, so we can't use that either. And then we'd start getting into the usual parade of arguments that completely miss the point of narratives and characters ("What if they went to space?" "Goku can just blow up the sun!")

"Feats" are completely irrelevant, and frankly irrelevant in most show-by-show comparisons. The only thing we know about Saitama's physical strength is that he's overwhelmingly stronger than everyone we've seen him face thus far. We don't know how much stronger he is, just that he's stronger. If Raditz or Goku or somebody else dropped in the OPM-verse, who knows? Maybe all of their crazy training just can't measure up to 3 years of push-ups, sit-ups, and jogging.

If Saitama isn't stupidly-invincible, he isn't Saitama. The narratives are absolutely important here. We're comparing a bunch of cartoon characters, here. I say instead of giving a shit about "feats" and which specific cartoon logic we're following we write an interesting story.
You're missing the point. In the OPM universe Saitama is ridiculously powerful, but comared to another universe's characters, not so much. The narrative of how Saitama is supposed to be overpowered would be entirely irrelevant here. The quote about the "good guys always win" thing earlier explained this perfectly.
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Re: DragonBall Z Abridged

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:25 am

That's an over-simplified way of looking at it. "Good guys always win" in most contexts is about characters overcoming adversity and surpassing their limits. One Punch man is a about a character who's already stronger than everyone he faces and has no struggles or adversity. It's a joke. And so, it ultimately comes down to how the writer of a crossover chooses to write it, which again goes back to my point of "Why the hell are we debating cartoons like science?" We've got dueling premises here and shows that operate under completely different systems.

Hey, maybe a DBZ/OPM crossover could feature Saitama one-shotting Goku, and then Goku undergoing some crazy training and beating Saitama. Or, he undergoes crazy training, leaving Saitama thrilled over having a competent opponent aaaaaaaannnnnnnnd one-shotted. Who knows.
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