Unpopular DB opinions

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Melee_Sovereign
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 23, 2019 4:57 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:26 pm

(even though DB Super being written by committee throws that idea out the window, but I digress)
Toriyama is still at the head of it. Beerus would have been some generic lizard creature if he hadn't stepped in. Random example, but I still sense a lot of Toriyama's style, charm and personality in DBS.

"But you can tell the writing and overall production of the movie series, is done as a job that needs to get done. It's designed explicitly to be popular, draw in a crowd and make profit off of it."
Well it is. Lately it's been taken to an extreme with the feminist agenda seeping into it, and several other forms of virtue signaling.

I didn't point this out before because it's an extreme example and would have rathered point out milder examples. Happens in Star Wars. Happens in Disney.

Dragon Ball is virtually untouched by this, despite being a $25 billion franchise.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm

You assume WAY too much about the extent of Toriyama's actual involvement in Super. He gives some input and a direction for the overall story, but he's not the one writing the scripts or fleshing out the details and the details are everything in a story.
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:57 pm
Well it is. Lately it's been taken to an extreme with the feminist agenda seeping into it, and several other forms of virtue signaling.

I didn't point this out before because it's an extreme example and would have rathered point out milder examples. Happens in Star Wars. Happens in Disney.
I don't consider myself a feminist, but what's wrong with putting a message such as female empowerment into the story? It's always been there, both in superhero comics and the MCU specifically. The second act of Iron Man begins with him giving up making weapons. Thor learns that destroying an entire race of people is not a good thing. Captain Marvel was no more feminist than Buffy the Vampire Slayer and yet I didn't see people crying fowl when Joss was hired to write and direct The Avengers. The X-Men are one giant "metaphor for racism in the 60s" as Deadpool put it. Is this an issue of execution or that it's put there at all? Putting a message or making a film more inclusive isn't a bad thing at all. Even if it was done for cynical reasons, I can think of far worse things in this world than companies attempting to make more money by putting people other than straight white men in front of and behind the camera.

Of course DB doesn't have these sorts of issue because it's not trying to be more than a story about fighting set in a quirky world.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu May 23, 2019 5:31 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:57 pm


Well it is. Lately it's been taken to an extreme with the feminist agenda seeping into it, and several other forms of virtue signaling.

I didn't point this out before because it's an extreme example and would have rathered point out milder examples. Happens in Star Wars. Happens in Disney.

Dragon Ball is virtually untouched by this, despite being a $25 billion franchise.
Exactly how did it happen in Star Wars?

And what exactly is the feminist agenda?

Hollywood doesn’t have “an agenda” other than a money-making one.

This idea that Hollywood is trying to push some sort of social progressive agenda is just sad and pathetic. They want to make money.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu May 23, 2019 5:33 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm
Captain Marvel was no more feminist than Buffy the Vampire Slayer and yet I didn't see people crying fowl when Joss was hired to write and direct The Avengers.
This is an excellent point. The 90s had plenty of girl power! platitudes from Buffy to Xena to Sailor Moon to the freakin Spice Girls. It’s only now people are whining and bitching about some imaginary agenda.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 23, 2019 7:12 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm

He gives some input and a direction for the overall story, but he's not the one writing the scripts or fleshing out the details.
I'm well aware of this.

I don't consider myself a feminist, but what's wrong with putting a message such as female empowerment into the story?
It's not just female empowerment.

And that's all I'm gonna say about this as it's a touchy topic. I did think the Wonder Woman film in comparison was executed very well though.

Putting a message or making a film more inclusive isn't a bad thing at all.
Putting a message like these in a film can be a bad thing if its executed poorly. And it often is. It makes the whole thing come across as pretentious and, dare I say, "emotionally manipulative."

One thing I've always loved about Dragon Ball is it doesn't try to dress it self up as being more than what it is. It stays clear of all the virtue signaling nonsense and just sticks to being about what it's always been about. Fightning, and getting stronger, and striving for improvement. That's why it feels very genuine to me.

It's simplistic and straightforward and it doesn't try to pretend that its not.

Even if it was done for cynical reasons, I can think of far worse things in this world than companies attempting to make more money by putting people other than straight white men in front of and behind the camera.
Okay, so? This is a red herring.

Of course DB doesn't have these sorts of issue because it's not trying to be more than a story about fighting set in a quirky world.
Well damn, you just said what I just said (I didnt even read this part of your comment before I said that).

Yes, exactly! Dragon Ball doesn't add in all this other pretentious crap in its story. It accepts itself for what it is! Its GENUINE! Dragon Ball is one of the least pretentious things I've ever watched.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 23, 2019 8:07 pm

It's far from pretentious. Big issues like racism, sexism, and inclusion are important and worth including in art, especially popular art.
Putting a message like these in a film can be a bad thing if its executed poorly. And it often is. It makes the whole thing come across as pretentious and, dare I say, "emotionally manipulative."
That's not an issue exclusive to art with a message. Execution is vital in everything, even something as silly as DB - execution is what matters. Silly stories can be just as bad as stories that aim higher than mindless entertainment but miss the mark. After anything new hits big, there is a glut of imitators trying to cash in on a trend. Being frivolous is not a guarantee something isn't a shameless cash grab. I don't know why that should stop artists from trying to put messages in their work. You might as well be saying, "Art with a message is difficult to pull off, so why even bother?" And as I've said over and over, the MCU's track record in comparison to plenty of other similar blockbusters is a good indicator that the MCU has figured out something that most of Hollywood hasn't. Aiming at a target and actually hitting it is incredibly difficult. Marvel should get a lot of credit for said track record since it should be abundantly clear that people won't go see a movie just because they are pandering to some underrepresented group.
This is a red herring.
It's really not. It's an ancillary point, but still a valid one. And for the record, I believe Marvel is genuine in its attempts at being more diverse. They didn't go out and hire the first black director they could find off the street to make Black Panther. Hell, even Ragnarok has a message that seemed to go unnoticed by most. Why put a subtle message in a batshit crazy movie if what you're looking to do is pander to masses and profit off the "SJW agenda"?
Yes, exactly! Dragon Ball doesn't add in all this other pretentious crap in its story. It accepts itself for what it is! Its GENUINE! Dragon Ball is one of the least pretentious things I've ever watched.
DB's lack of pretention isn't a reason it is successful, much less the reason. It's not even clear what you mean by pretentious. Toriyama has a knack for appealing design, character, simple but effective plots, and action that is dynamic but easy to follow. Lack of a desire to aim for anything more than that has nothing to do with it.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Shaddy » Thu May 23, 2019 10:42 pm

Methinks by "not pretentious" here they mean "does not make much of an attempt at social or political commentary". Which I agree that Dragon Ball shouldn't have, but only because I doubt Toriyama would be any good at it.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by DragonBallFan » Fri May 24, 2019 12:22 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:12 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm

He gives some input and a direction for the overall story, but he's not the one writing the scripts or fleshing out the details.
I'm well aware of this.

I don't consider myself a feminist, but what's wrong with putting a message such as female empowerment into the story?
It's not just female empowerment.

And that's all I'm gonna say about this as it's a touchy topic. I did think the Wonder Woman film in comparison was executed very well though.

Putting a message or making a film more inclusive isn't a bad thing at all.
Putting a message like these in a film can be a bad thing if its executed poorly. And it often is. It makes the whole thing come across as pretentious and, dare I say, "emotionally manipulative."

One thing I've always loved about Dragon Ball is it doesn't try to dress it self up as being more than what it is. It stays clear of all the virtue signaling nonsense and just sticks to being about what it's always been about. Fightning, and getting stronger, and striving for improvement. That's why it feels very genuine to me.

It's simplistic and straightforward and it doesn't try to pretend that its not.

Even if it was done for cynical reasons, I can think of far worse things in this world than companies attempting to make more money by putting people other than straight white men in front of and behind the camera.
Okay, so? This is a red herring.

Of course DB doesn't have these sorts of issue because it's not trying to be more than a story about fighting set in a quirky world.
Well damn, you just said what I just said (I didnt even read this part of your comment before I said that).

Yes, exactly! Dragon Ball doesn't add in all this other pretentious crap in its story. It accepts itself for what it is! Its GENUINE! Dragon Ball is one of the least pretentious things I've ever watched.
Wonder Woman is a good example, she isn't sexualised into an object and is actually cool. Captain Marvel could have been good, too bad the actor is a sexist, racist, and a shitty person overall.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by DragonBallFan » Fri May 24, 2019 12:27 am

Shaddy wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:42 pm
Methinks by "not pretentious" here they mean "does not make much of an attempt at social or political commentary". Which I agree that Dragon Ball shouldn't have, but only because I doubt Toriyama would be any good at it.
Toriyama is from a completely different generation, and even back then he didn't add any political stuff in, and is people say he did it's most likely he was making a gag.

There's this one manga that I think was taken too far, about a woman trying to be a super hero and she's raped every time she tries to do something good, eventually she becomes a prostitute. That shit was not funny imo.

I do like that he still has this strange unique comedy style though, usually it gives me a few chuckles.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri May 24, 2019 1:24 am

ABED wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:07 pm

It's far from pretentious. Big issues like racism, sexism, and inclusion are important and worth including in art, especially popular art.
It's worth it when it's done right. Otherwise, it's pretentious, and can stir up more problems than solve any.

And as I've said over and over, the MCU's track record in comparison to plenty of other similar blockbusters is a good indicator that the MCU has figured out something that most of Hollywood hasn't.
Okay, I've seen you mention this before, but I'll bite. What "track record" are you even going by? Ratings? Or is it revenue? I really hope you're not talking about revenue.
It's really not.
It really is. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

They didn't go out and hire the first black director they could find off the street to make Black Panther.
Why does it even matter if he's black? Just hire a director who is good at directing.

Personally, and from personal experience (I'm mixed black/white btw), I think it's much better to solve racism by normalization. Black Panther could have just been a cool superhero movie without throwing in the race baiting virtue signalling nonsense. It actually don't see it as helping any problem of racism. Because it further prevents normalization.

Look at characters like War Machine, Nick Fury, and that guy with the wings (forgot his name). They're black, but they're normalized. We're not constantly reminded of race by the narrative when it comes to them. They're just cool characters, just like Iron Man, Spiderman, Thor etc.... are just cool characters. That's the way to actually solve it. Normalization. Into the Spiderverse, another good example.

I can give you a good example in Dragon Ball. Whis, who is implicitly gay (he blushed at Beerus's junk), is very normalized. Toriyama wasn't trying to win virtue points from people when he invented Whis. He just invented him. It's an example of "inclusion" without pretentious virtue signalling. Wonder Woman is a good example of female empowerment, without again, pretentious virtue signalling. You know who else is a good example? Wanda Maximoff, and she's in the MCU. Why is she any less worthy than Captain Marvel to represent female empowerment? I mean, she seems pretty powerful and badass, so what's the deal?

DB's lack of pretention isn't a reason it is successful, much less the reason.
Admittingly a personal opinion, but I kinda think it is a big part of its success. Even if the fanbase itself doesn't realize it. I think the lack of pretentious is subconsiously very attractive to people.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 6:38 am

1 - When it's done right is subjective, but it's worth trying even if you fall short. What problems are you talking about?
2 - The MCU has a great track record of both critical and financial success, so both. Plenty of blockbusters chase those dollars and use elements they think will appeal to mass audiences and still end up failing.
3 - If you can't see the connection, I don't know what to tell you.
4 - Coogler is a very talented director and writer. Being a black man lends the film an authenticity it might not otherwise have. I think you are assuming that women and minorities are given a fair shot, so long as they are talented. That's not only wrong, it's deeply misguided. Sometimes you have to actively seek out talent that comes from underrepresent parts of our culture. There are many women out there that are talented and want to be directors but aren't given a fair shake. There was a study done that showed the time between women's first and second films is around 3 times as long as that of male directors. It's not because they are pickier or less talented. Women and minorities face unfair expectations that white men just don't. It sucks, but it's the truth. http://www.anothergaze.com/second-comin ... ures-made/
5 - Black Panther's character being black is an inherent part of his character. He's the king of an African nation that's never been colonized. It would be disingenuous to not make a big deal about his race. And given the huge success the movie was with not only black audiences, I'd say they achieved their goal of connecting with the audience. I saw at least two white kids wearing Black Panther costumes for Halloween. That's a great thing!
6 - While I'm sympathetic to the idea of normalization and glad the MCU does it, it's also a good idea to face these issues head on.
7 - BS that Wonder Woman wasn't an in your face example of putting a message in a movie!
8 - You keep using the word pretentious but I don't know if you really understand what that means.
9 - Normalization is one way to help change people's perceptions, but by tackling an issue head on, I think there is a good possibility of informing people of certain issues they may otherwise be ignorant about.
10 - Finally, I admire Toriyama's ability to make such a silly story emotionally engaging, but it takes talent to do any of this, whether it's a silly story or a story that tackles weighty subject matter.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Fri May 24, 2019 8:41 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:22 am
Wonder Woman is a good example, she isn't sexualised into an object and is actually cool. Captain Marvel could have been good, too bad the actor is a sexist, racist, and a shitty person overall.
What's the correlation between Captain Marvel movie/character quality and Brie Larson as a person?
Lore and stuff happening do not make a Story.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 9:28 am

Here's an unpopular opinion - I don't mind Dolltaki. Yes, he's vile and makes my skin crawl, but that's why I like him as a minor antagonist.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:28 am
Here's an unpopular opinion - I don't mind Dolltaki. Yes, he's vile and makes my skin crawl, but that's why I like him as a minor antagonist.
I think the problem with Dolltaki is that it’s difficult to tell if we’re supposed to be disturbed by his lust for Pan, or if we’re supposed to find it funny. It doesn’t help that GT has done some pretty questionable things with both Pan and Bra.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 1:05 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:28 am
Here's an unpopular opinion - I don't mind Dolltaki. Yes, he's vile and makes my skin crawl, but that's why I like him as a minor antagonist.
I think the problem with Dolltaki is that it’s difficult to tell if we’re supposed to be disturbed by his lust for Pan, or if we’re supposed to find it funny. It doesn’t help that GT has done some pretty questionable things with both Pan and Bra.
That's fair, but it's not like they wrote him as a good guy but with a weird tick. He's the bad guy.

What happened with Bra? The only thing of note from her was the scene where those guys hit on her before Vegeta cuts off their steering wheel.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri May 24, 2019 2:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:38 am
1 - What problems are you talking about?
It stirs up controversy when it's not needed.

2 - The MCU has a great track record of both critical and financial success, so both. Plenty of blockbusters chase those dollars and use elements they think will appeal to mass audiences and still end up failing.
Not a single MCU movie is critically acclaimed. The fast majority of them hold an average 6-7 out of 10 rating. That means they're average movies to critics.

It has financial success simply because they have the budget to market the crap out of these movies, especially now that they have Disney backing them.

4 - Coogler is a very talented director and writer. Being a black man lends the film an authenticity it might not otherwise have.
Authenticity for what? A fictional African country?

I think you are assuming that women and minorities are given a fair shot, so long as they are talented.
No, I'm saying that's what should happen.

Women and minorities face unfair expectations that white men just don't. It sucks, but it's the truth.
And this shouldn't happen. Everyone should be treated fairly.

Sometimes you have to actively seek out talent that comes from underrepresent parts of our culture.
That's unnecessary. Just seek out people who can do the damn job.

5 - Black Panther's character being black is an inherent part of his character.
It's just as inherent as Thor being white.

He's the king of an African nation that's never been colonized.
A made up African nation, that was made up by a white person. Which is fine. What's not fine is pretending the movie is anything more than this.

And given the huge success the movie was with not only black audiences
I dunno, most of my black friends didn't care about the movie. I saw the movie as more successful towards the sjw audience. That's the purpose the movie served. It's actually more offensive in that way, because it's trying to profit off of a problem more-so than actually solve any.

7 - BS that Wonder Woman wasn't an in your face example of putting a message in a movie!
In what way was it in our face?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 24, 2019 2:53 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:05 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:28 am
Here's an unpopular opinion - I don't mind Dolltaki. Yes, he's vile and makes my skin crawl, but that's why I like him as a minor antagonist.
I think the problem with Dolltaki is that it’s difficult to tell if we’re supposed to be disturbed by his lust for Pan, or if we’re supposed to find it funny. It doesn’t help that GT has done some pretty questionable things with both Pan and Bra.
That's fair, but it's not like they wrote him as a good guy but with a weird tick. He's the bad guy.

What happened with Bra? The only thing of note from her was the scene where those guys hit on her before Vegeta cuts off their steering wheel.
Those guys hitting on her was pretty weird. I mean, did the writers forget that she’s supposed to be even younger than Pan? Sure, Vegeta did cut off their steering wheel, but the implication I got was that he did that because they insulted him, not necessarily because they were hitting on his nine year old daughter.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Omniboy » Fri May 24, 2019 3:40 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:53 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:05 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 pm


I think the problem with Dolltaki is that it’s difficult to tell if we’re supposed to be disturbed by his lust for Pan, or if we’re supposed to find it funny. It doesn’t help that GT has done some pretty questionable things with both Pan and Bra.
That's fair, but it's not like they wrote him as a good guy but with a weird tick. He's the bad guy.

What happened with Bra? The only thing of note from her was the scene where those guys hit on her before Vegeta cuts off their steering wheel.
Those guys hitting on her was pretty weird. I mean, did the writers forget that she’s supposed to be even younger than Pan? Sure, Vegeta did cut off their steering wheel, but the implication I got was that he did that because they insulted him, not necessarily because they were hitting on his nine year old daughter.

I'm always had this weird feeling that they made Bra older than she actually is in GT. She looks too much like Bulma did in Dragonball and she checks off every stereotype about girls in their late teens.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 3:43 pm

They were lecherous douchebags. They weren't good guys. And I agree with Omniboy. She's chronologically nine, but it feels like she's designed to look and act like a teenager. I know the series takes place five years after Z, but it feels like 10. Even Pan looks and acts older than an 8 year old.

Melee, it's amazing that basically all your responses are flat out off base. I don't have the energy to pick them each apart, but here are a few thoughts. I'm not sure where your measurement of critical consensus came from, and marketing something is no guarantee of financial rewards. We've seen too often that spending on advertising and relying heavily on the hardsell is throwing good money after bad. If only success was that easy. To say otherwise is incredibly naïve at best. While it's noble to simply say "people should all be treated fairly", the simple fact is they are not and there are systemic issues involved that prevent it. I'm not suggesting using affirmative action, but the system isn't designed to help talented women and minorities keep getting work. Any controversy being swirled up is nonsensical crap by a bunch of immature nerds on the net. These assholes bullied Kelly Tran and complained that she was hired to appeal to the Chinese market. She's not Chinese! Her parents are Vietnamese. So should Rian Johnson not have hired her so as to not have to deal with racist assholes? Then there's the crap surrounding Brie and the backlash surrounding stuff she never said. It's dishonest, obnoxious behavior and the culprit isn't Marvel.
Methinks by "not pretentious" here they mean "does not make much of an attempt at social or political commentary".
Bingo
Last edited by ABED on Fri May 24, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 24, 2019 3:52 pm

Omniboy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:40 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:53 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:05 pm
That's fair, but it's not like they wrote him as a good guy but with a weird tick. He's the bad guy.

What happened with Bra? The only thing of note from her was the scene where those guys hit on her before Vegeta cuts off their steering wheel.
Those guys hitting on her was pretty weird. I mean, did the writers forget that she’s supposed to be even younger than Pan? Sure, Vegeta did cut off their steering wheel, but the implication I got was that he did that because they insulted him, not necessarily because they were hitting on his nine year old daughter.

I'm always had this weird feeling that they made Bra older than she actually is in GT. She looks too much like Bulma did in Dragonball and she checks off every stereotype about girls in their late teens.
You might have a point, but at the same time, even Bulma in early Dragon Ball looked older than Bra did, considering that she was drawn with visible breasts. Plus, Pan still clearly looked like a child, so it’s all just really confusing.

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