Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:22 am

I've had it pointed out to me that the 'R' in GSRM stands for 'romance' and not what I thought it did. Whoops.
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:03 am
No one wants to see Piccolo suddenly running around in “short shorts” and a “Rainbow Cape” just to please an extremely small group of people.
If I didn't before I sure do now.

There sure is a lot of obsession in this thread with randomly putting down the LGBTQIA+ community.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:56 am

How'd you come to the conclusion that i'm trying to put anyone down?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:14 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:56 am
How'd you come to the conclusion that i'm trying to put anyone down?
Well this post doesn't sound quite right:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:03 am
No one wants to see Piccolo suddenly running around in “short shorts” and a “Rainbow Cape” just to please an extremely small group of people.
Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:25 am

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:14 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:56 am
How'd you come to the conclusion that i'm trying to put anyone down?
Well this post doesn't sound quite right:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:03 am
No one wants to see Piccolo suddenly running around in “short shorts” and a “Rainbow Cape” just to please an extremely small group of people.
I was talking about the thread in general but this is a nice example.

This whole thread has huge "No faggots allowed" energy to it and frankly I'm tired of fighting for the soul of a forum full of this shit. I'm going to go fuck off now.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:36 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:25 am
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:14 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:56 am
How'd you come to the conclusion that i'm trying to put anyone down?
Well this post doesn't sound quite right:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:03 am
No one wants to see Piccolo suddenly running around in “short shorts” and a “Rainbow Cape” just to please an extremely small group of people.
I was talking about the thread in general but this is a nice example.

This whole thread has huge "No faggots allowed" energy to it and frankly I'm tired of fighting for the soul of a forum full of this shit. I'm going to go fuck off now.
I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think Krump Dancer is claiming the LGBT+ community overall is small, just the vocal contingent yelling for Piccolo to explicitly say he's asexual standing on stilts with flashing neon lights. That's the impression I got.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:45 pm

. . . White Christian men can’t become a minority in the US fast enough . . .

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:22 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:45 pm
. . . White Christian men can’t become a minority in the US fast enough . . .
Get off your high horse.

What was the point of this comment? This is bigotry. I’m getting sick of seeing comments like this. Also Julie’s “white cishet men” rant comment regardless of context is bigotry. It was sexist and disgusting. She didn’t say “the people who support Vic are mostly...” she said “white cishet men are this...”

Blanket broad stroke comments like that are offensive and if were said about a minority would get a user instantly banned.

In a war you need allies not enemies. Telling people who mostly agree with you but don’t fully agree with you on every point that they are bigots or homophobes is only going to create another enemy. Please stopping making posts like this.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:32 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:45 pm
. . . White Christian men can’t become a minority in the US fast enough . . .
yikes

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:45 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:36 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:25 am
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:14 am

Well this post doesn't sound quite right:
I was talking about the thread in general but this is a nice example.

This whole thread has huge "No faggots allowed" energy to it and frankly I'm tired of fighting for the soul of a forum full of this shit. I'm going to go fuck off now.
I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think Krump Dancer is claiming the LGBT+ community overall is small, just the vocal contingent yelling for Piccolo to explicitly say he's asexual standing on stilts with flashing neon lights. That's the impression I got.
That’s pretty much it. I called myself trying to bring up a middle ground so we can move on.

Honestly the whole thing with representation is supposed to show people that different people can be just as cool as everyone else and that what ever life they choose to walk doesn’t matter so long as they aren’t hurting anyone else.

Piccolo being asexual was brought up for a few seconds then we moved on because it doesn’t matter when the world is about to be blown up by a space monster.

Miyuki was a trans girl villain from YuYu Hakusho. Kuwabara didn’t wanna fight her because he doesn’t believe in hitting girls. Yusuke didn’t care because he saw her as just another fighter. She was swiftly beaten and Yusuke preached that he didn’t care that she was posing as a woman or whatever all he saw was an opponent and they then proceeded to move on . No harm no foul and this was back in 1993/03 before “representation” became a big deal.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:59 pm

Diversity (or lack thereof) has always been an issue. It's simply that people didn't feel safe enough or had the platform to voice an opinion.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:28 pm

Just so everyone understands I’m am 100% for diversity. As I’ve stated several times that you could take a character like Ten or Yamcha and have them come out as gay and it would have no affect on their overall character based off what we’ve been shown. (With Yamcha despite his “womanizer” behavior it wouldn’t be incredibly far fetched for him to turn out to be gay, just like several gay men I have known in my own life). As long as their character remains steady from what we’ve been shown over the years I have no issue with this.

This issue more lies in the fact that dragon ball isn’t really a progressive or political manga/anime and having a character just say “I’m gay” would most likely never happen. I think it’s more likely that a new character who is LGBT+ would be introduced. But the problem with that is you have to worry about the Mary Sue complex where a character comes off as an insert character with no real value or is portrayed as flawless in order to not offend anyone, which in turn would come off as hollow and pandering.

As for piccolo blurting out “I’m asexual” that goes against his stoic character. It’s already been established that he’s asexual and that should be enough. If everyone already knows this, as people in this thread are saying, then there is no reason for him to vocalize it. Show don’t tell is the way to write an effective story.

Here’s an example.

Introduce a character, who is female, in a tournament. When Goku or whoever fights them we get a flashback in a similar vein of Goku’s fight with Nam. In the flashback the character is shown as a young boy. It shows them struggling to fit in with the other boys at their dojo despite being a standout student. In their training they keep losing in important fights because inside they feel like they are not being true to themselves. It then shows the character finding themself questioning who they are. They come to discover that they are actually female and begin to “transition”. Once they’ve “transitioned” they return to the dojo. The other students at first make fun of them but they enter into a “best of the dojo” tournament anyway. Despite the ridicule they stand strong and end up winning both the tournament and the respect of her peers. They elect that she should enter the world tournament as the representative of their dojo.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm

I... personally feel that we could be more constructive in this thread. I don't particularly believe in responding with venom against people trying to at least HAVE the conversation is productive.

But that's my perspective, and I respect that there are reasons to be frustrated and at the end of one's rope when it comes to the way people treat matters of identity in media and society in general.
omegacwa wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:28 pm
Just so everyone understands I’m am 100% for diversity. As I’ve stated several times that you could take a character like Ten or Yamcha and have them come out as gay and it would have no affect on their overall character based off what we’ve been shown. (With Yamcha despite his “womanizer” behavior it wouldn’t be incredibly far fetched for him to turn out to be gay, just like several gay men I have known in my own life). As long as their character remains steady from what we’ve been shown over the years I have no issue with this.
On one hand, I love the idea of Yamcha being gay, because it would be adorable and kiiinda make sense.

On the other, he's a total loser, and a non-character in the franchise at this point, and it would be nice to have an LGBTQ+ character who's at least respectable and maybe more prevalent.
This issue more lies in the fact that dragon ball isn’t really a progressive or political manga/anime and having a character just say “I’m gay” would most likely never happen. I think it’s more likely that a new character who is LGBT+ would be introduced. But the problem with that is you have to worry about the Mary Sue complex where a character comes off as an insert character with no real value or is portrayed as flawless in order to not offend anyone, which in turn would come off as hollow and pandering.
Honestly, everyone keeps thinking representation is this difficult fuckin' procedure, or that it has to be blurted out and made a big deal of.

If you read Kale and Caulifla as a couple, they're *almost perfect*. A kiss from Kale would've sealed the deal, but that would've been the writers making a commitment to something that-- honestly-- we're still not sure was their objective in the first place. (I.E. They can be interpreted as Lesbians, but whether or not that was the intention of the writers is still unclear.)

My point is, you don't have characters SAY they're one thing or the other, you don't have them WEAR or ACT like a stereotype... you just write scenes that involve that aspect of their character like you would for heterosexual characters.

Funny enough, we've already gotten a lot of that with Piccolo; his ace-aero personality has already informed several reactions and lines from him over the course of the series, and we see it Dende's reaction to Bulma. Inadvertently, he's already ace-aero and a symbol of representation within DragonBall.

A series, I should add, that uses sexuality as a JOKE more often than not, and uses romance sparingly and to varying degrees of success. It's hard to say whether or not the series would even benefit from more representation, but if there were some cute jokes or an interesting twist, I'd be okay with that. But I don't personally see that happening, and at this stage, people are more concerned about the general quality of the actual material than whether or not it's offering representation.
As for piccolo blurting out “I’m asexual” that goes against his stoic character. It’s already been established that he’s asexual and that should be enough. If everyone already knows this, as people in this thread are saying, then there is no reason for him to vocalize it. Show don’t tell is the way to write an effective story.
As you said, nobody wants this, and you should trust us on that.
Introduce a character, who is female, in a tournament. When Goku or whoever fights them we get a flashback in a similar vein of Goku’s fight with Nam. In the flashback the character is shown as a young boy. It shows them struggling to fit in with the other boys at their dojo despite being a standout student. In their training they keep losing in important fights because inside they feel like they are not being true to themselves. It then shows the character finding themself questioning who they are. They come to discover that they are actually female and begin to “transition”. Once they’ve “transitioned” they return to the dojo. The other students at first make fun of them but they enter into a “best of the dojo” tournament anyway. Despite the ridicule they stand strong and end up winning both the tournament and the respect of her peers. They elect that she should enter the world tournament as the representative of their dojo.
This is a cute idea! And if contemporary DragonBall actually focused on individual stories more often, I could see it. Not sure it would ultimately fit into the storytelling structure or themes of DragonBall, but I definitely would like that sort of story being told by the right people.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:22 pm

As for piccolo blurting out “I’m asexual” that goes against his stoic character. It’s already been established that he’s asexual and that should be enough. If everyone already knows this, as people in this thread are saying, then there is no reason for him to vocalize it. Show don’t tell is the way to write an effective story.
KaiserNeko wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm
As you said, nobody wants this, and you should trust us on that.
A few pages back there are people who would disagree. Apparently not being on the nose means people won't get it or there's wiggle room so people won't believe it. I disagree with that assessment, since I generally don't think writers should sacrifice good and clear writing so people won't miss the obvious. I also wanted to point out there are people that disagree with you.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:56 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm
On one hand, I love the idea of Yamcha being gay, because it would be adorable and kiiinda make sense.

On the other, he's a total loser, and a non-character in the franchise at this point, and it would be nice to have an LGBTQ+ character who's at least respectable and maybe more prevalent.
Yamcha jokes have become so boring that I feel like we really need to be careful with how to handle him. I think "Of course I finally find love the first time I try dating a man!" is a quaint, ironic idea to explore. That's dipping into my experience as someone who went from woman-loving egg to pan egg to freshly hatched trans women who is pan over the course of a single weekend, though, so I don't know how cisgay men feel about that sort of framing.

I wonder if Yamcha has ever truly been in love before? I don't think Blooma was full-on love, even if it was a serious relationship. I didn't fall in love for the first time until I was a month from turning twenty-eight. I think combining that with "Yamcha gets a boyfriend" is an interesting idea to explore within the confines of whatever format is available.
KaiserNeko wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Honestly, everyone keeps thinking representation is this difficult fuckin' procedure, or that it has to be blurted out and made a big deal of.

If you read Kale and Caulifla as a couple, they're *almost perfect*. A kiss from Kale would've sealed the deal, but that would've been the writers making a commitment to something that-- honestly-- we're still not sure was their objective in the first place. (I.E. They can be interpreted as Lesbians, but whether or not that was the intention of the writers is still unclear.)

My point is, you don't have characters SAY they're one thing or the other, you don't have them WEAR or ACT like a stereotype... you just write scenes that involve that aspect of their character like you would for heterosexual characters.
Yeah, in my opinion all that was really missing while the Sixth Universe watched Super Shen Long restore the universes was Kale turning to Caulifla and saying "Thank you for giving me courage, ane-san! It's why I can say now...I love you, ane-san!" followed by Caulifla blushing and taking a step back, "W-why would such a cute girl like you love a ruffian like?!"

I see Caulifla as being a little aloof to romance, more so because she's got it in her head that she doesn't have a chance with Kale, whom she sees as being graceful and full of prospects. Perhaps in some respects her tomboy nature gives her insecurity in the romantic front, even if she isn't ashamed of her personality. In my opinion, Caulifla is a trans woman who is dysphoric about how she isn't hyper-feminine but she's resigned herself to it. Kale, however, sees Caulifla as a symbol of a piece of femininity that she does not easily exude.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:08 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:56 pm
KaiserNeko wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm
On one hand, I love the idea of Yamcha being gay, because it would be adorable and kiiinda make sense.

On the other, he's a total loser, and a non-character in the franchise at this point, and it would be nice to have an LGBTQ+ character who's at least respectable and maybe more prevalent.
Yamcha jokes have become so boring that I feel like we really need to be careful with how to handle him. I think "Of course I finally find love the first time I try dating a man!" is a quaint, ironic idea to explore. That's dipping into my experience as someone who went from woman-loving egg to pan egg to freshly hatched trans women who is pan over the course of a single weekend, though, so I don't know how cisgay men feel about that sort of framing.

I wonder if Yamcha has ever truly been in love before? I don't think Blooma was full-on love, even if it was a serious relationship. I didn't fall in love for the first time until I was a month from turning twenty-eight. I think combining that with "Yamcha gets a boyfriend" is an interesting idea to explore within the confines of whatever format is available.
KaiserNeko wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Honestly, everyone keeps thinking representation is this difficult fuckin' procedure, or that it has to be blurted out and made a big deal of.

If you read Kale and Caulifla as a couple, they're *almost perfect*. A kiss from Kale would've sealed the deal, but that would've been the writers making a commitment to something that-- honestly-- we're still not sure was their objective in the first place. (I.E. They can be interpreted as Lesbians, but whether or not that was the intention of the writers is still unclear.)

My point is, you don't have characters SAY they're one thing or the other, you don't have them WEAR or ACT like a stereotype... you just write scenes that involve that aspect of their character like you would for heterosexual characters.
Yeah, in my opinion all that was really missing while the Sixth Universe watched Super Shen Long restore the universes was Kale turning to Caulifla and saying "Thank you for giving me courage, ane-san! It's why I can say now...I love you, ane-san!" followed by Caulifla blushing and taking a step back, "W-why would such a cute girl like you love a ruffian like?!"

I see Caulifla as being a little aloof to romance, more so because she's got it in her head that she doesn't have a chance with Kale, whom she sees as being graceful and full of prospects. Perhaps in some respects her tomboy nature gives her insecurity in the romantic front, even if she isn't ashamed of her personality. In my opinion, Caulifla is a trans woman who is dysphoric about how she isn't hyper-feminine but she's resigned herself to it. Kale, however, sees Caulifla as a symbol of a piece of femininity that she does not easily exude.
And while I don't share that read of the characters, they're perfectly acceptable interpretations. Some people unfortunately will see your interpretation and assume you believe it to be steadfast canon, or that any difference in interpretation (by either fans or the writers) is inviting you to jump down their throats.

But our personal interpretations are literally just that. I think they're lesbians, but I understand if others think they're just friends. (Though.the people who think they're related need to be corrected.)
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:27 pm

Yeah, I think it is weird when people assume that people are going to shit bricks over their headcanon not being made official. I've been on internet fan forums/sites since 1998, I know how to not be a blockhead.

Besides, professional quality is available in the realm of fan works.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:18 pm

It always seemed to me that Kale thought she wasn't good enough for Caulifla, not the other way around.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:38 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:27 pm
Yeah, I think it is weird when people assume that people are going to shit bricks over their headcanon not being made official. I've been on internet fan forums/sites since 1998, I know how to not be a blockhead.

Besides, professional quality is available in the realm of fan works.
Because we've seen the internet lose their shit when what they had in their heads isn't made canon.

Hard disagree with that last statement. I've never seen pro quality fan works, at least not in the realm of fanfic.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:38 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:27 pm
Yeah, I think it is weird when people assume that people are going to shit bricks over their headcanon not being made official. I've been on internet fan forums/sites since 1998, I know how to not be a blockhead.

Besides, professional quality is available in the realm of fan works.
Because we've seen the internet lose their shit when what they had in their heads isn't made canon.

Hard disagree with that last statement. I've never seen pro quality fan works, at least not in the realm of fanfic.
I've read fanfics that were better than the source material.

Of course, in most of those cases, the source material in question wasn't very good to begin with.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:03 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:18 pm
It always seemed to me that Kale thought she wasn't good enough for Caulifla, not the other way around.
It's both! Kale thinks she isn't good enough for Caulifla but after the tumultuous Tournament of Power where she worked with Caulifla she gained some resolve. Caulifla, a tomboy battle Otaku, also feels she isn't good enough and probably thinks that she shouldn't even try to reach Kale.
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