“There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by pepd » Thu May 21, 2020 12:36 am

I thinks it's false. “I didn't intended there to be anything to be learned from my contributions to DB” would be correct, and is interesting to know.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu May 21, 2020 5:57 am

It's a huge stretch. Everyone knows Dragon Ball isn't literary genius but saying there's nothing to gain from it is kinda unfair especially considering how many people it influenced.

https://youtu.be/2QKsmx1fosY
https://youtu.be/Yd4rBkXLBLI

"Hard work trumps over natural talent", "there's always someone better than you", and "everyone deserves a second chance" are pretty good life lessons to live by.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31207&p=969551#p969545

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:09 am

Again, intended or not, plenty of people learned something from Dragon Ball. And if many people already did learn from it, you can't say that there's nothing to learn from. Obviously it is more than just mindless entertainment if it persevered for over three decades and has fans ranging from children to middle-aged.

So long as there are themes -- good versus bad, friendship, work ethic, being the best, redemption -- it has the ability to teach someone, especially if that someone doesn't see those themes in their own lives.

And nobody is saying that it's this hoity toity super artsy fartsy work of art that stage actors would bestow their genius talent to be a part of, but it isn't just some throw-away garbage series full of fart jokes and stupidity. It doesn't have deep, profound ideas -- it has basic, obvious ones. It's not thought-provoking, but very "here it is, here's the idea." That doesn't mean there's nothing to learn from it.

But, whatever. It's nice to know that not only did the creators not intend it to be as successful as it is and don't understand how it is, but they also put down their own work when people praise it. Maybe Super is a reflection of that mindset (even though I enjoy it just as mindless entertainment myself).

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Thu May 21, 2020 12:56 pm

The story was a comedy adventure ramp, and Toriyama is a humorist. Part of DB's appeal is that while it's a basic story told with enough action and comedy to give it far-ranging appeal.
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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Majin Buu » Thu May 21, 2020 3:44 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:41 pm
I think online discussions would be pretty boring if everyone subscribed to that line of thinking, especially when it comes to Dragon Ball.
I agree with Sadala to an extent. I think most of the online Dragon Ball fandom could stand to take this franchise a little less seriously.

I've personally never viewed Dragon Ball as anything more than what it is: A simple, entertaining martial arts story; and I've never had any expectations for it being anything more than that. I have plenty of other media I can go to when I want to be moved by deep, thought provoking things. Dragon Ball isn't one of them.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm

This reminds me of how people look for deep meaning in songs by artists like the Beatles and Bob Dylan, but they've said in interviews that a lot of those songs people see meaning in weren't written to have any meaning at all. A lot of art is like that, and I'm not surprised this is the case with Dragon Ball, they were just writing a comic for kids and had no idea how big it would be.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri May 22, 2020 5:28 pm

Dragon Ball is incredibly simple, and I sure as hell wouldn't put it on any kind of pedestal for storytelling of any kind, but I wouldn't dismiss the idea of there being any important takeaways you can gain from Dragon Ball. I think the most important thing to remember about Dragon Ball is to not take the story so seriously. I will give Dragon Ball some major credit for introducing the Western fandom to the wonderfully world of Wuxia and how you can craft an incredibly good shonen manga and anime from that genre.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri May 22, 2020 5:43 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm
This reminds me of how people look for deep meaning in songs by artists like the Beatles and Bob Dylan, but they've said in interviews that a lot of those songs people see meaning in weren't written to have any meaning at all. A lot of art is like that, and I'm not surprised this is the case with Dragon Ball, they were just writing a comic for kids and had no idea how big it would be.
People have a tendency to project meaning in things where there's objectively none.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 22, 2020 6:37 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:43 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm
This reminds me of how people look for deep meaning in songs by artists like the Beatles and Bob Dylan, but they've said in interviews that a lot of those songs people see meaning in weren't written to have any meaning at all. A lot of art is like that, and I'm not surprised this is the case with Dragon Ball, they were just writing a comic for kids and had no idea how big it would be.
People have a tendency to project meaning in things where there's objectively none.
I mean, I personally don’t really bother projecting any significant meaning to Toriyama’s writing anymore, but there would be a lot less people talking about Dragon Ball, if everyone decided to just accept it as a surface level children’s story about a guy who really likes fighting, regardless of how true that may be.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 22, 2020 9:07 pm

Torishima seems like a really boring person.
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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 23, 2020 6:08 am

It's worth taking into account that the way he experienced DB is very different from us. Unlike fans who get the completed work, and who watch/read it multiple times to pick up on everything, Torishima probably just read the scripts, while probably multi tasking, and only once. There's simply no way for anyone to pick up on anything like that.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:59 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:08 am
It's worth taking into account that the way he experienced DB is very different from us. Unlike fans who get the completed work, and who watch/read it multiple times to pick up on everything, Torishima probably just read the scripts, while probably multi tasking, and only once. There's simply no way for anyone to pick up on anything like that.
He could also be basing it on Toriyama's original intentions. I doubt either of them expected Dragon Ball to become as big as it is.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31207&p=969551#p969545

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 23, 2020 7:12 am

I think the themes in the original story and Super reflect the beliefs of the people writing them. I'd say the main themes of the original were working hard, picking yourself up after failure, learning to rely on yourself, and not being ashamed of relying on your friends when you need to.

The next theme was seen twice in Super, with a 3rd potentially being in the Moro arc. That theme is people's inability to get their job done, resulting in the need of their superiors to take responsibility for their mess. When Freeza blew up the earth, Whis had to save it. When Zamasu took over the universe, Zeno had to save it. We're now seeing something similar take place in the current arc, where Merus might have to save everyone from Moro.

In the original, the heroes would either succeed on their own through hard work, or have to pick themselves up and try again harder if they failed. In Super, we've seen the heroes fail twice, but instead of getting back up and trying again, their superiors ended up just bailing them out, with a 3rd example potentially on the way. These themes reflect the difference in time between the 2.

Back in the 80s and 90s, the themes of DB were seen in society. People were expected to work hard, rely on themselves, and learn from their mistakes. In today's world however, things are different, people constantly need someone else to hold their hand and fix their mistakes. I'm not saying these are intentional, but your beliefs and thoughts tend to show in your writing, at least they do in mine, so I think this is how Toriyama sees society today compared to how he saw it back in his day.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:59 am
He could also be basing it on Toriyama's original intentions. I doubt either of them expected Dragon Ball to become as big as it is.
There's also the fact that him and Toriyama never intended it to be what it is in terms of literature value, resulting in him believing its worth to be what it was intended, not what it turned out to be.

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat May 23, 2020 12:04 pm

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by ABED » Sat May 23, 2020 12:33 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:04 pm
"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama
And yet there is a unifying theme in his story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 23, 2020 12:34 pm

There is nothing to learn from one of the most popular franchises on the planet? I'm going to press X on that.
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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat May 23, 2020 1:48 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:07 pm
Torishima seems like a really boring person.
I like you a lot and I love the way you think most of the time Julie but I think you are wrong. I think that what Torishima meant to say is the opposite. That learning is fine and all, but its kind of antithesis to actual fun. Tell me, did you enjoy going to school being bullied and being forced to learn at a pacing and material that wasnt to your liking? With this he meant Dragon Ball more or less embodies genuine and unbound fun. Sure fun is nice and all, but it seeks to entertain and make you happy not necesarily teach.

Also and I dont think anyone said this, Torishima is a VERY intelectual person. He AS A KID, mind you, read EXTREMELY complicated books and got a lot out of them. Its not surprising to see him thinking DB doesnt have anything to teach.
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Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by ABED » Sat May 23, 2020 1:51 pm

Learning is not the same as going to school. A story that informs can also entertain, not in spite of it, but because of it. It's clearly not DB's aim, though.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat May 23, 2020 1:59 pm

I know I am tempting fate and doing one of those unending discussions with ABED, but I think there ARE some books and media that seek to teach or impart knowledge with the heavy handedness of an anvil falling into your head, AND that Dragon Ball aint one of them. Saying that isnt akin to saying ALL MEDIA THAT TRIES TO TEACH SOMETHING ARE BORING.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: “There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

Post by ABED » Sat May 23, 2020 2:02 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:59 pm
I know I am tempting fate and doing one of those unending discussions with ABED, but I think there ARE some books and media that seek to teach or impart knowledge with the heavy handedness of an anvil falling into your head, AND that Dragon Ball aint one of them. Saying that isnt akin to saying ALL MEDIA THAT TRIES TO TEACH SOMETHING ARE BORING.
You said that Torishima is saying learning is the antithesis of fun. There wasn't a whole lot of nuance with your statement.

Also, it's easy to end a discussion with me - don't reply.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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