GT and misogyny

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ABED
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:02 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:02 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:58 pm
I'm with you on all of those point except for Mr. Satan. One can easily just interpret that as Grandfatherly concern and not inherently sexist.
Paternalism is still misogyny. Misogynists do not always think that they are misogynists.
Not when you are in fact a parent or grandparent. That is their function, to protect their kids/grandkids.
MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:46 am
It's sexist either way. Yeah Satan's a grandfather but his grandchild happens to be a girl. Because of that, his "grandfatherly concern" becomes sexist.

And just because the concern would exist if she were a boy doesn't mean the concern for Pan isn't still sexist.
Sorry to be blunt but this is a BS response. She's a girl, ergo it's sexist? You can show concern or protectiveness for a granddaughter because that's sexist. It's sexist if the concern is not primarily about her safety but her being a girl and thus less able to take care of herself.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am

Shaddy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:16 am
I think it would be more justifiable if we hadn't seen literal seven year-old super saiyans in the Buu arc who could hold their own perfectly well.
Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:06 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am
Shaddy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:16 am
I think it would be more justifiable if we hadn't seen literal seven year-old super saiyans in the Buu arc who could hold their own perfectly well.
Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.
Interesting. How do you define the difference between sexism and misogyny?
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:29 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:06 am
Interesting. How do you define the difference between sexism and misogyny?
Not the user you replied to, but here is my two cents:

Sexism is generally just the separation of the two sexes with "gender roles" as a practice or mentality. One sexist aspect of dragon ball is how all the adult strong female fighters end up settling down and raising families (whether good or bad, still sexist overall). Misogyny is the belittling of women that is motivated by negative attitudes toward them [by men]. One misogynistic aspect of Dragon Ball is, well, Master Roshi.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:00 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am
Shaddy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:16 am
I think it would be more justifiable if we hadn't seen literal seven year-old super saiyans in the Buu arc who could hold their own perfectly well.
Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.
I am surprised that no one mentioned Trunks reaction in DBS when he found out that he was getting a baby sister instead of a baby brother.

Pan in GT is treated way better than DBS Anime Goten and Trunks, Pan not only rescued Goku from being killed against Oceanus Shenron but she did a combo with Goku Kamehameha to kill Oceanus Shenron. Lets not forget Goku and Pan combo to kill Haze Shenron.

In DBS Anime they nerfed the boys to struggle against a snake on earth and then in RoF and onwards they became the forbidden twins. To make it even better they can't be trusted with information anymore and keep every danger or event a secret.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:06 am

Wait, I’m confused. Why should Mr. Satan being concerned over his grandchild be considered sexist?

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:06 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:06 am
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am
Shaddy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:16 am
I think it would be more justifiable if we hadn't seen literal seven year-old super saiyans in the Buu arc who could hold their own perfectly well.
Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.
Interesting. How do you define the difference between sexism and misogyny?

Misogyny is considered hatred of women. Whereas Sexism is more tied to negative gender stereotypes and discrimination on a society level


Also someone saying Trunks and Goten are treated in Super worse than Pan in GT. They aren’t being treated like that because of their sex. While there are things in the way Pan is treated that are tied to gender stereotypes.

Edit: Although I’ll have to think about the point someone else made about Master Roshi’s antics goes beyond sexism into misogyny. Master Roshi has always been one of the things I liked least about Dragon Ball. But I still feel this is more sexism because this type of humor is prevalent in a lot of Shounen work not just Dragon Ball. It’s the whole unfortunate “boys will be boys” type of humor.

There is also a lot of sexist attitudes behind the scenes as well take this as an example

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intere ... ns/.152995

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:16 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:06 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:06 am
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am


Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.
Interesting. How do you define the difference between sexism and misogyny?

Misogyny is considered hatred of women. Whereas Sexism is more tied to negative gender stereotypes and discrimination on a society level


Also someone saying Trunks and Goten are treated in Super worse than Pan in GT. They aren’t being treated like that because of their sex. While there are things in the way Pan is treated that are tied to gender stereotypes.

Edit: Although I’ll have to think about the point someone else made about Master Roshi’s antics goes beyond sexism into misogyny. Master Roshi has always been one of the things I liked least about Dragon Ball. But I still feel this is more sexism because this type of humor is prevalent in a lot of Shounen work not just Dragon Ball. It’s the whole “boys will be boys” type of humor.
I’d say it’s misogyny because he reduces women to objects. Sexism, is more reinforcing rigorous gender roles. Lunch coming to live at Kame House to be a house keeper because woman is sexism. Getting groped by Roshi is misogyny.


Roshi is actually a great example of recognizing problematic elements while still being to enjoy something.

Because I love Roshi the mentor as seen in the tournament arcs and Piccolo Daimao. But Roshi the sex pervert is gross. I can’t bring myself to hate Roshi because when he’s done well he’s done really well.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Yuji » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:40 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am
Shaddy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:16 am
I think it would be more justifiable if we hadn't seen literal seven year-old super saiyans in the Buu arc who could hold their own perfectly well.
Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.
Is she, though? Pan was 9 years old at the time of GT. She isn't really being treated any less differently than Goten and Trunks are now in Super (and they're older), being kept out of battles for fear they may get hurt or killed. She's young, inexperienced and objectively the weakest Saiyan fighter. It is clear that her family would want her to be out of trouble.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:44 am

She's written that way by real human men pushing a sexist and misogynistic portrayal of women, though.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:46 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:16 am
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:06 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:06 am
Interesting. How do you define the difference between sexism and misogyny?

Misogyny is considered hatred of women. Whereas Sexism is more tied to negative gender stereotypes and discrimination on a society level


Also someone saying Trunks and Goten are treated in Super worse than Pan in GT. They aren’t being treated like that because of their sex. While there are things in the way Pan is treated that are tied to gender stereotypes.

Edit: Although I’ll have to think about the point someone else made about Master Roshi’s antics goes beyond sexism into misogyny. Master Roshi has always been one of the things I liked least about Dragon Ball. But I still feel this is more sexism because this type of humor is prevalent in a lot of Shounen work not just Dragon Ball. It’s the whole “boys will be boys” type of humor.
I’d say it’s misogyny because he reduces women to objects. Sexism, is more reinforcing rigorous gender roles. Lunch coming to live at Kame House to be a house keeper because woman is sexism. Getting groped by Roshi is misogyny.


Roshi is actually a great example of recognizing problematic elements while still being to enjoy something.

Because I love Roshi the mentor as seen in the tournament arcs and Piccolo Daimao. But Roshi the sex pervert is gross. I can’t bring myself to hate Roshi because when he’s done well he’s done really well.
To me it’s more sexism because the specific type of humor is so prevalent in these type of comics but I can see your reasoning too.

I am the opposite though while I can see there are good things about the way Roshi is written I really dislike the character because of the humor surrounding his character.


But as for an example of misogyny this is not in the text but I often see certain fans call Bulma a bitch for leaving Yamcha for Vegeta even claiming it is obvious Bulma cheated on Yamcha even though the text says otherwise

Instead of being angry at the male author for what he wrote they take the hatred out on a female character.

It’s the same with fans excessively hating ChiChi for wanting Gohan to study and not fight or blaming ChiChi because Gohan didn’t develop into the character they wanted him to be. But again it’s Toriyama who wrote the story this way. Why direct that hatred toward a female character?
Last edited by Kinokima on Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 am

Yuji wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:40 am
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 am
Shaddy wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:16 am
I think it would be more justifiable if we hadn't seen literal seven year-old super saiyans in the Buu arc who could hold their own perfectly well.
Yeah it’s not Mr Satan’s grandfatherly concern that is the issue it’s how Pan is treated differently from Goten, Trunks and Gohan in the narrative.

Although I do want to say I feel the issues with Dragon Ball are more sexist than misogynist. Those words are used interchangeably at times but they are not really the same thing.
Is she, though? Pan was 9 years old at the time of GT. She isn't really being treated any less differently than Goten and Trunks are now in Super (and they're older), being kept out of battles for fear they may get hurt or killed. She's young, inexperienced and objectively the weakest Saiyan fighter. It is clear that her family would want her to be out of trouble.
Trunks and Goten are being written out of the story in the way many Dragon Ball characters roles are reduced


Pan was written to be a “damsel in distress” who needs Goku the hero to rescue her.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Yuji » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:51 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 am
Pan was written to be a “damsel in distress” who needs Goku the hero to rescue her.
I agree, but I don't think she being kept out of the latter battles on Earth in GT plays into the issue. She plays the damsel in distress role during the black star dragon ball and Bebi arcs, and later on during one or two of the Shadow Dragon fights, and that is bad. But when her mother or anyone else tells her to stay back and sit by, I don't feel like it's because of her gender.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:53 am

Yes, but Mr. Satan's grandfatherly instinct to protect her is not sexist.

As for the lack of protectiveness towards Gohan, I don't think that's true. We see as the story goes along, Piccolo becomes more and more protective of Gohan, and unlike Pan, Gohan's power was necessary for solving the problem. The characters had to put their protective instincts for the sake of survival.

The issue is less how protective they all are towards a child and more that she's not used in any sort of useful capacity beyond a motivator for other characters.

The one part of this that I like is that Pan is active. She wants to contribute and when people tell her not to, she usually doesn't listen, but sadly the story doesn't facilitate that or her growth in any substantive way.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:03 pm

Maybe my memory might be wrong but wasn't Goku helpless against Oceanus Shenron? Didn't Pan help Goku out and then both of them killed Oceanus Shenron? If remember right Goku was trapped in Oceanus whirlwind and he couldn't do anything.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:07 pm

If we want to compare how Gohan and Pan are treated respectively, Chi-Chi is consistently shown to be protective of Gohan when he’s a child, and Piccolo is also protective of him when he’s fighting Cell. There’s no reason to assume that Mr. Satan’s protectiveness of Pan is anything other than parental instinct. That’s just the kind of person he is.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:10 pm

super michael wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:03 pm
Maybe my memory might be wrong but wasn't Goku helpless against Oceanus Shenron? Didn't Pan help Goku out and then both of them killed Oceanus Shenron? If remember right Goku was trapped in Oceanus whirlwind and he couldn't do anything.
Yes, she was occasionally helpful but those moments are too few in number.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:14 pm

For what it’s worth, Pan also helps defeat Luud, although she had to be captured before that could happen.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:18 pm

super michael wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:03 pm
Maybe my memory might be wrong but wasn't Goku helpless against Oceanus Shenron? Didn't Pan help Goku out and then both of them killed Oceanus Shenron? If remember right Goku was trapped in Oceanus whirlwind and he couldn't do anything.
Her Kamehame-Han distracts Liu Xing Long long enough for Gokuu to break free and kill her. Bare in mind, the episode is also horribly transmisogynistic, so...yeah. The series still hates women.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:25 pm

I don't think GT is more misogynistic than Toriyama's original story but given that one of GT's main characters is a woman, it's more apparent.
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