Unpopular DB opinions

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:13 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:53 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:03 am
ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:02 pm
What are you talking about?
You know ALL of existence was erased, right? It's even shown that the Time Ring itself blew up, because the entire timeline and all organisms in it was annihilated. This includes the Otherworld and all souls of the dead.
I fail to see what your fundamental issue is. Zamasu had merged with that timeline's reality. It was a goner either way.
Death isn't the end for souls in the DB world, they go on living in the Otherworld, so Zeno robbed them of their afterlife and erased them from existence. Future Gohan, Bulma, Goku, etc. etc. etc. were enjoying their time in the Otherworld, until Zeno erased them. The fact that the timeline was a goner either way is irrelevant, if someone truly had a problem with souls getting erased they wouldn't care.
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 am

I can't help but think you just don't want to blame Zamasu for this. Zamasu bonded with that timeline's reality - ALL OF IT. It was screwed. Erasing it from existence was an act of mercy. Seriously what is with you and Zamasu?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:07 am

Yeah. I have to say if the whole afterlife was safe it would have been conveyed to us somehow. Zamasu was at fault... but I do agree he's an interesting villain.
MyVisionity wrote:
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It's ill-fitting for me. Dragon Ball is not a bedtime story. And "laid-back old man" is not how I would describe Yanami's narrator. To me he sounds like the kind of uncle that shows up to the birthday party with loads of fruit punch soda and stuffs himself with pizza and ice cream, or takes you out on his boat at the lake in the summer and goes skinny dipping or something.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:34 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 am
I can't help but think you just don't want to blame Zamasu for this. Zamasu bonded with that timeline's reality - ALL OF IT. It was screwed. Erasing it from existence was an act of mercy. Seriously what is with you and Zamasu?
Zamasu is living rent-free in your head, I haven't mentioned him once. I understand that you love him but we're talking about Zeno and Goku, stick to the topic and address my point.
Zeno robbed them of their afterlife and erased them from existence. Future Gohan, Bulma, Goku, etc. etc. etc. were enjoying their time in the Otherworld, until Zeno erased them. The fact that the timeline was a goner either way is irrelevant, if someone truly had a problem with souls getting erased they wouldn't care.
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:57 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:34 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 am
I can't help but think you just don't want to blame Zamasu for this. Zamasu bonded with that timeline's reality - ALL OF IT. It was screwed. Erasing it from existence was an act of mercy. Seriously what is with you and Zamasu?
Zamasu is living rent-free in your head, I haven't mentioned him once. I understand that you love him but we're talking about Zeno and Goku, stick to the topic and address my point.
Zeno robbed them of their afterlife and erased them from existence. Future Gohan, Bulma, Goku, etc. etc. etc. were enjoying their time in the Otherworld, until Zeno erased them. The fact that the timeline was a goner either way is irrelevant, if someone truly had a problem with souls getting erased they wouldn't care.
Aight, that has to be Top 5 lamest attempts at reverse psychology I've ever seen. All of us here are fully aware, that you are the Zamasu super fan around these parts, which is fine if you really like the character but sometimes ( and I'm sure others can agree) it's somewhat challenging to have a serious conversation with you because often times you get into character mode and make attempts to "Speak like Zamasu" and its kinda eye rolling honestly, because it's not necessary. Trust me, I was somewhat of an angsty teen myself, so I get it, which is why I think it's so silly.

To your point though, even if the dead were sipping Strawberry Pina Collida's in the After Life, it was ruined, the moment Zamasu started fusing with the air. Even if you wanna say most of the future multiverse hadn't been corrupted just yet, Zeno deemed it necessary to get rid of all of it which is in line with his character, he has a tendency to go over board, which is what makes him so scary.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:05 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:57 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:34 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 am
I can't help but think you just don't want to blame Zamasu for this. Zamasu bonded with that timeline's reality - ALL OF IT. It was screwed. Erasing it from existence was an act of mercy. Seriously what is with you and Zamasu?
Zamasu is living rent-free in your head, I haven't mentioned him once. I understand that you love him but we're talking about Zeno and Goku, stick to the topic and address my point.
Zeno robbed them of their afterlife and erased them from existence. Future Gohan, Bulma, Goku, etc. etc. etc. were enjoying their time in the Otherworld, until Zeno erased them. The fact that the timeline was a goner either way is irrelevant, if someone truly had a problem with souls getting erased they wouldn't care.
Aight, that has to be Top 5 lamest attempts at reverse psychology I've ever seen. All of us here are fully aware, that you are the Zamasu super fan around these parts, which is fine if you really like the character but sometimes ( and I'm sure others can agree) it's somewhat challenging to have a serious conversation with you because often times you get into character mode and make attempts to "Speak like Zamasu" and its kinda eye rolling honestly, because it's not necessary. Trust me, I was somewhat of an angsty teen myself, so I get it, which is why I think it's so silly.

To your point though, even if the dead were sipping Strawberry Pina Collida's in the After Life, it was ruined, the moment Zamasu started fusing with the air. Even if you wanna say most of the future multiverse hadn't been corrupted just yet, Zeno deemed it necessary to get rid of all of it which is in line with his character, he has a tendency to go over board, which is what makes him so scary.
Goku isn't that cold and pragmatic though. Even if he understood that the timeline was doomed, he should still be shocked somewhat by what he just witnessed (multiversal genocide), since he can't stand the thought of innocent people getting erased :think:

But really he's hypocritical in the ToP arc too. He was shocked for like 2 minutes after U9 got erased (in-character, since he can't stand people getting erased), but then he moved on like nothing happened and was back to his dumb old self, he was even fooling around with Ribrianne and Toppo and their "power-up sequence" BS despite the fact that he knows innocent lives are at stake.

We can talk about Zamasu too if you want though :wink:
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:28 am

Goku's an active character not a reactive one, he's shocked in the moment but he's quick to find a solution, he's also very optimistic, so he's not gonna dwell on a bad situation, he always looks at the bright side and that's what makes his personality so infectious to the people around him.

Also in the battle field, its best not to focus on casualties, as they can be distracting from the end goal and you end up getting hurt yourself.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:01 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:28 am
Goku's an active character not a reactive one, he's shocked in the moment but he's quick to find a solution, he's also very optimistic, so he's not gonna dwell on a bad situation, he always looks at the bright side and that's what makes his personality so infectious to the people around him.

Also in the battle field, its best not to focus on casualties, as they can be distracting from the end goal and you end up getting hurt yourself.
Focusing on casualties might have prevented Goku from giving Dragon Ball Baphomet a senzu bean.

There's a point after which optimism isn't meaningfully different from apathy and Goku has been there for a while.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:55 pm

Much like anything, there's good and bad in everything, having optimism is a great character trait for anyone to have but too much without being somewhat realistic can be detrimental depending on the situation.

Goku having a little too much of the former is what makes him who he is, even if its a little frustrating, no one's perfect.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:18 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:34 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 am
I can't help but think you just don't want to blame Zamasu for this. Zamasu bonded with that timeline's reality - ALL OF IT. It was screwed. Erasing it from existence was an act of mercy. Seriously what is with you and Zamasu?
Zamasu is living rent-free in your head, I haven't mentioned him once. I understand that you love him but we're talking about Zeno and Goku, stick to the topic and address my point.
Zeno robbed them of their afterlife and erased them from existence. Future Gohan, Bulma, Goku, etc. etc. etc. were enjoying their time in the Otherworld, until Zeno erased them. The fact that the timeline was a goner either way is irrelevant, if someone truly had a problem with souls getting erased they wouldn't care.
Two things: What... and WHAT?

On topic, there are fates worse than death or in this case, worse than being blanked out of existence.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:05 am
Goku isn't that cold and pragmatic though. Even if he understood that the timeline was doomed, he should still be shocked somewhat by what he just witnessed (multiversal genocide), since he can't stand the thought of innocent people getting erased :think:

But really he's hypocritical in the ToP arc too. He was shocked for like 2 minutes after U9 got erased (in-character, since he can't stand people getting erased), but then he moved on like nothing happened and was back to his dumb old self, he was even fooling around with Ribrianne and Toppo and their "power-up sequence" BS despite the fact that he knows innocent lives are at stake.
Goku basically knew that all of that timeline's reality was fucked the moment that he saw that Zamasu fused with it. Zamasu grew too powerful for them to deal with & they'd already spent a while fighting him, so they had no option BUT to let Zeno wipe it out. It was a hasty, split-second decision, but one Goku made in the heat of the moment. If you'd want Goku & the others to spend a bit pondering everything that just happened & allowing everything to sink in, I think that's a valid argument, since other people have said the ending of the arc isn't good because of the fact that it wraps up so badly & fast, with Trunks, Mai, & everyone else just accept what happened with no realistic emotions conveyed. However, you're wanting to say it makes Goku a hypocrite because it was the only thing he could've done & that's not a good argument at all.

While Goku's inconsistent characterization is a genuine issue in the writing of the Super anime, saying he only showed concern over them for a few minutes, then went back to normal doesn't make him hypocritical. While I'm sure you're just simplifying it & parsing what happened in a way to make Goku out as more hypocritical than he is. If anything U9 being erased from reality would only make him more wary of if U7 lost & that'd continue to be a driving motivation for him to keep on fighting to win the whole tournament. As for him being excited to fight other powerful opponents & fooling around, have you never watched the show, or read the manga? To quote the English dub of the first Z Broly movie, he wants "To fight powerful opponents, of course." In almost every tournament Goku's been in, he's been consistently show to be excited to fight strong fighters. Even the ones that threaten his life, or the planet. It's one of his better-known character flaws as well. Goku often forgets about the larger impacts of the fights he's in because he's having fun fighting. Sure, sometimes it's frustrating, but there are people in real life who do that kind of shit. It makes Goku more human to have these flaws. You don't have to like them, but that's the thing about him. He has good & bad traits.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:44 am

Scsigs wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:33 pm
While Goku's inconsistent characterization is a genuine issue in the writing of the Super anime, saying he only showed concern over them for a few minutes, then went back to normal doesn't make him hypocritical. While I'm sure you're just simplifying it & parsing what happened in a way to make Goku out as more hypocritical than he is. If anything U9 being erased from reality would only make him more wary of if U7 lost & that'd continue to be a driving motivation for him to keep on fighting to win the whole tournament.
I'm literally not, I'm telling you what happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmUmtJwmzFs

^ Goku letting an opponent power-up despite knowing that it's a tournament to the death where billions of lives risk being erased (he hates the thought of people getting erased).

This was only a few episodes after Zeno completely erased all living organisms in the Universe 9.

He even reprimands 17 (the only rational person in this scene honestly) for interrupting their power-up (which would give the enemy an advantage).

So Goku still takes this whole thing as a joke even though he understands his loved ones are at stake, I'm sorry but that's hypocritical. If you claim you can't stand the thought of people getting erased, you wouldn't joke around in such a situation. This isn't even a case of me "wanting DB to be darker than it's supposed to be", it's just basic logic. You can have Goku act like a fool, but don't make him say stuff like "I just can't stand the idea of innocent lives getting erased!"
As for him being excited to fight other powerful opponents & fooling around, have you never watched the show, or read the manga? To quote the English dub of the first Z Broly movie, he wants "To fight powerful opponents, of course." Even the ones that threaten his life, or the planet. It's one of his better-known character flaws as well. Goku often forgets about the larger impacts of the fights he's in because he's having fun fighting.
And that's why he's hypocritical!!

It's funny how I'm accused of "never watching the show or reading the manga" when I'm the only here agreeing with Toriyama that Goku isn't a hero.

I literally said that I don't think Goku is acting out of character, but that he's hypocritical, you keep missing my point. At no point will you see me say "I hate how Goku is acting OOC".
And yet you still have the desire to fight me, don't you? Go ahead and challenge me all you like until you realize your own sheer impotence.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Krillin1994 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:43 pm

I'm gonna weigh in on all this Zeno and Zamasu arguing.

Zeno destroying the FT timeline after Zamasu had corrupted it. I don't think he killed any mortals.
As far as I can recall Earth was the final stage of his Zero Mortals plan wasn't it? Especially in the Manga he has been to every other universe and taken out their gods and I assumed erased their mortals after that then switch to another universe. Think it was just his twisted sense of humour that he saved earth for last and the last humans had died moments before the Zeno intervention.

Also with Otherworld. Even most good guys getting sent to afterlife don't get to keep their bodies. It's meant to just be the most exceptional of people. So I do wonder what the actual threshold for keeping your body is (Though I guess Grandpa Gohan got to keep his). What is it like for those who don't keep their body? Maybe the level of genocide being argued upon really wasn't as big as believed. Also was it ever stated that souls of good guys don't fade away eventually?

Goku didn't seem too broken up on it for sure. But perhaps that was just him chalking it down to everyone already being dead there/ selfishly not his timeline so not a major deal to him/ not being able to do anything in the face of Zeno. We saw him in that arc feiging his friendliness with Zeno with regards to saying he'd play for him/find a playmate just to get him off his back. We see a more expected response from Goku to the Grand Priest when ToP erasures happen.

Also Goku letting people power up when there are high stakes is just part of his character and perhaps it's that psyche which actually leads to success just like Vegeta. Jiren chastises Toppo for chucking away his ideals and beliefs but compliments Vegeta on him sticking to his - which leads him to beat Toppo.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:40 am

Broly 1 is one of my least favorite DBZ movies, and Lord Slug is one of my favorites.

Even though Broly 1 is cool, the first 2 Z Broly movies have the issue (to me) where too much time is spent with one sided Broly beat downs. He just destroys everyone the whole movie. There’s no interesting martial arts or back and forth battling to watch.

The fights in Lord Slug are more varied and feature back and forth exchanges of techniques and arts. Cooler 1 does this even better now that I think about it.

Maybe it’s just because I prefer to see the heroes winning? Or at least not being simply destroyed for 3/4 of the movie lol

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:43 pm

Not sure how unpopular this is, but Zamasu is not a good villain: The biggest problem is that he’s an overused character type: the self-righteous visionary villain with a god complex, and yet he has none of the depth and complexity that normally comes with that character type. He’s completely one-dimensional with a silly, threadbare motivation for hating mortals, which more or less just seems like an excuse for him to be evil. I personally just think that the character archetype doesn’t really work in the Dragon Ball universe; you can’t turn Light Yagami into a Dragon Ball villain without turning him into a caricature. But if you were going to try to make him work as a villain, more time needed to be devoted to developing his character.
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I like Sean Schemmel’s Goku but I LOVE Nozawa as Goku...
Also I don't have any problem with Schemmel, actually I've grown to like his portrait as Goku as most DB games come with the english dub in my country. But he can't simply top Nozawa not even Bezerra for that matter.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:01 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:28 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm
I find him very likable. And what about his actions don't make sense? He has a primary motivation that I think everyone gets - be the best you can be and keep pushing through your limits.
You find him likeable because the people in this fandom have conditioned themselves to defend anything and everything about him as a hopelessly misguided backlash to the Funimation dub.
Oh, brother.

Y'know that the Japanese fandom doesn't really have any of these hangups about Goku, right?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:19 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:01 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:28 pm
You find him likeable because the people in this fandom have conditioned themselves to defend anything and everything about him as a hopelessly misguided backlash to the Funimation dub.
Oh, brother.

Y'know that the Japanese fandom doesn't really have any of these hangups about Goku, right?
The Japanese fandom is the Japanese fandom. Their reasons for sticking with or liking a character probably don't overlap with the Latin American and North American fandoms' reasons.
Last edited by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips on Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:52 pm

I just scrolled up reading this “is Goku likeable is he not?” And “Toriyama’s Goku vs funimation’s Goku” etc. I will try to describe why I like Goku so much. My perspective is largely shaped by GT (the first DB show I watched, funimation dubbed) but also the Z movies, and Super, etc

He’s funny, a little clueless, always hungry (relatable!), a bit of a goofball, but also confident and a skilled, strong fighter with cool hair and exaggerated muscles.

I do admit that Super seems to over-exaggerate some of his “worse”(?) qualities and it can be frustrating to watch him be an extra dunce and “I just wanna fight” kinda guy. But I still like him (and DBS).

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:13 pm

jamiljamtheman wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:52 pm
I do admit that Super seems to over-exaggerate some of his “worse”(?) qualities and it can be frustrating to watch him be an extra dunce and “I just wanna fight” kinda guy. But I still like him (and DBS).
The anime staff have genuinely no idea how to balance Goku's personality traits right. Admittedly, Toriyama started to overcorrect for what he perceived as Toei over-emphasizing Goku's more "heroic nice guy" traits in the anime to make Goku more oblivious to some things & more selfish in its last few arcs, which lead to some really forced moments to keep the plots going, but that's nothing compared to how the anime staff have absolutely no idea how to balance him out. Toriyama got a handle on him, so they need to as well.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:33 pm

Convo made me think of this.

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