Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:19 pm

Even if Toriyama chose Nozawa as Goku, that doesn't mean she's the only one who could have ever played the role and now everyone who plays Goku after her must mimic her. Plenty of fictional characters have had different portrayals by different actors that all worked in different ways. Heck, being completely devoted to mimicry in a performance, even in a dub, might actually make an actor's performance worse. For all the debate that goes on over who was the better dub cast between the Ocean dub and FUNimation's in-house dub, there's a near-universal consensus that FUNimation's in-house cast started giving much better performances when they stopped trying to imitate their predecessors from Ocean...because even if they sounded very different, their acting was far better because it was more organic and more true to them. Put another way, Chris Sabat sounded a lot better when he started playing Vegeta, rather than playing Brian Drummond playing Vegeta.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:58 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:19 pm
Even if Toriyama chose Nozawa as Goku, that doesn't mean she's the only one who could have ever played the role and now everyone who plays Goku after her must mimic her. Plenty of fictional characters have had different portrayals by different actors that all worked in different ways. Heck, being completely devoted to mimicry in a performance, even in a dub, might actually make an actor's performance worse. For all the debate that goes on over who was the better dub cast between the Ocean dub and FUNimation's in-house dub, there's a near-universal consensus that FUNimation's in-house cast started giving much better performances when they stopped trying to imitate their predecessors from Ocean...because even if they sounded very different, their acting was far better because it was more organic and more true to them. Put another way, Chris Sabat sounded a lot better when he started playing Vegeta, rather than playing Brian Drummond playing Vegeta.
Indeed, they started sounding good in the roles of the most part once they no longer sounded like poor man's impressions of the Ocean VA's as in Season 3 up through the Cell arc.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by dragonmagico » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:58 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:22 pm


They should stay true to the original when it comes to the script, but whether or not the voices sound like the ones in the Japanese version has no bearing on that. Masako Nozawa has a pretty distinct voice, and I’d argue that if an English dub chose its Goku specifically based on who could sound the most like her, it would likely just result in an inferior imitation.
Honestly that sounds really bad too. Like i dont think a dub should just be a cheap imitation, that seems destined for failure. I watch dubs to see an adaptation of the japanese version not cheap imitation. And yes most the anime I watch I watch both sub and dub to see the differences because its fun for me. a cheap imitation would kill that fun

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:39 am

If you're replacing a voice in the same dub then trying to find a replacement that's close to the original makes sense. However, if that's the goal, then you should cast somebody who already has a similar sounding voice to begin with, which is why Damian Mills (Frieza) and Alexis Tipton (Trunks) work so well. The baseline voice is the same, but they can do their own thing with it instead of trying to sound like somebody else (though Frieza is a grey area since that one is explicitly one actor filling in for another, to the point where they even work in the same scenes).
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:31 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:50 pm
I don’t understand how anyone can argue that Toei’s practice of keeping the same voice actors for these characters across all ages and relatives wasn’t done largely out of convenience. If Trunks had been introduced as a child, chances are that Toei would’ve gotten a woman to voice him.
Toei wouldn’t have done it if it didn’t sound right, people are bringing up “convenience” because it’s an easy way of discrediting Toei’s choice of VA’s, albeit a lazy one.
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:50 pm
There’s simply no reason the dub has to follow Toei’s practice. It’s a completely arbitrary decision.They shouldn’t need to go through the trouble of finding an English speaking voice actress who can sound close to Nozawa.
Why not? By no means is it a waste of time trying to actually match the characters. No dub has gone through trouble finding VA’s, if anything it’s the exact opposite, especially with funimation. It’s much easier to do what they did.
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:50 pm
Masako Nozawa is iconic as Goku for good reason, but her take doesn’t have to be the end all be all. Besides, she has a very unique voice that probably wouldn’t be easy to imitate. And again, apart from the AB Groupe dub, none of Goku’s dub voices even sound particularly “testosterone fueled.”
No one is saying she’s the be all end all, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with actually putting effort into a accurate good dub. The fandom forgets this constantly.

The past dubs didn’t particularly sound testosterone fuelled, it’s mostly Funimation’s dub that sounds like that now, since you know, they are essentially going to own a monopoly on dubbing anime pretty soon. They are basically free to do as they please at this point.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:33 pm
Nozawa’s voice really doesn’t fit Gohan as an adult or Bardock. Trunk’s voice actor really doesn’t fit an 8 year old
It’s strange how it’s mostly people like you who think this way. Not meant to be an insult by the way, I realise it may come off like one if I don’t clarify.

I personally believe the west has catered this idea of masculinity that we assign to every male super hero, and you literally see it in basically every type of western media. Japan has a problem with the dumb Shonen character but god damn at least they actually know how to write interesting stories that differ from social expectations. I was also caught up in this idea as well when I was a kid, though it’s changed as I’ve actually seen DB the way it actually is.
Goku voiced by a male actor as an adult =/= needs a testosterone fueled voice
Ahh, Kansenshuu, the place of straw-man central. I understand the culture we grow up in in our world compared to Japan, but you do realise not everyone goes from squeaker to an absolute monstrous bull voice during puberty, right?
People argued Kelamis is a good English equivalent to Nozawa and we know he couldn’t pull off Goku as a child.
In terms of screams maybe, but he really isn’t a good Goku. I’d prefer to also hear your arguments instead of “people think this that, thus, it’s this that”.
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:48 am
Eh, to each their own. This is all subjective, but to me, they only sound "fine" in that they fit the character and their acting is great. A fair deal of them don't believably sound like they are their specified age/gender. Like I said, as much as I love their performances, even now I don't believe they sound realistic. I came to accept their voices based on the "it's a cartoon, they can have cartoony voices"-logic.

You’re right. I only see this being more realistic now because I’ve met so many people who just don’t fit into these boxes that we have created, heck, did you see the guy who literally sounds exactly like Nozawa? That basically solidified my open mindedness and now it feels weird when a huge portion of the fandom wants these unnecessary changes that fit this idea that’s been hammered into our heads.
That's something that a lot of people seem to hear dub fans saying, when it is not in fact being said. In other words, I don't know a ton of people saying that Goku has to have a super-manly, macho, "testosterone-fueled" voice. Most of the people who take issue with Nozawa's voice as adult Goku take issue with it not because it isn't manly, but because it sounds too obviously like a woman. I would cite Peter Kelamis's voice as a great example of a voice that both fits the character and sounds believably like an adult male while at the same time not sounding "testosterone-fueled."
But you said it in your first paragraph, they want a “manly voice”, through these iterations of Son Goku, we’ve created something I personally feel is just another unique character that America naturally needed to shit on, because that’s about what this country does best, no, I’m being dead serious, and it’s ironic as hell. I’ve explained before about the nuances, so I’m gonna save you the agony of listening to me go off on that again :-p.

Heh, and having had this discussion multiple times, this is usually the part where I get to pointing out the fact that, for all the flack Sean Schemmel gets for sounding "too macho" among some sub fans, he's actually one of the higher-pitched voices for Goku that I've heard among the many dubs of DBZ. Not the highest-pitched, but one of the higher-pitched ones.
This is an unbelievably charitable position to take on Sean of all people, and I commend you for it because I just couldn’t do it. That said, there’s a difference between what Sean does, being a completely over the top (even for DB standards) “manly battle cry” with his voice breaking partly, and Nozawa’s voice just being, well, simply put, a male who sounds a little strange but none the less fits Son Goku, after all he is a weird guy, lol.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:39 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:39 am
If you're replacing a voice in the same dub then trying to find a replacement that's close to the original makes sense. However, if that's the goal, then you should cast somebody who already has a similar sounding voice to begin with, which is why Damian Mills (Frieza) and Alexis Tipton (Trunks) work so well. The baseline voice is the same, but they can do their own thing with it instead of trying to sound like somebody else (though Frieza is a grey area since that one is explicitly one actor filling in for another, to the point where they even work in the same scenes).
I agree.
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:55 pm
The idea that people want Goku to sound “manly” always seemed like a strawman. I do get that not everyone would be fond of Sean Schemmel’s performance, but some of his critics act like he gives Goku this deep and stoic Kenshiro-esque voice, when he really doesn’t at all. Sure, his voice gets lower when he plays Super Saiyan 4 Goku, but that’s an exception, and even then, it’s more raspy than deep. His regular Goku voice is hardly what I would call “macho.”
Holy, this is so dishonest, the English fandom for years has been fucking awful in regards to this, the most common argument in that side is “Sorry, I want my Goku to sound like a man, not an old lady. Goku’s a man with muscles and is meant to be manly”.

Goku’s natural voice in the dub is fine, but it sounds so forced when his voice goes through basically a complete personality swap when he fights. It sounds so stiff when you have Goku being as close to Goku as you can get, then all of a sudden changing when a fight starts. I should have been clearer in saying that the deep voice problem comes from conflict scenes usually, which then leaks into the regular natural voice which ends up making him sound incredibly stiff and forced. It’s like trying to meet both fans in the middle.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:03 am

Aim wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:31 am
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:48 am
That's something that a lot of people seem to hear dub fans saying, when it is not in fact being said. In other words, I don't know a ton of people saying that Goku has to have a super-manly, macho, "testosterone-fueled" voice. Most of the people who take issue with Nozawa's voice as adult Goku take issue with it not because it isn't manly, but because it sounds too obviously like a woman. I would cite Peter Kelamis's voice as a great example of a voice that both fits the character and sounds believably like an adult male while at the same time not sounding "testosterone-fueled."
But you said it in your first paragraph, they want a “manly voice”...
I didn't say they want a "manly voice," I said the people who take issue with Nozawa's voice for Goku as an adult take issue with it because it sounds too obviously like a woman, which clashes with Goku's appearance to the point of being distracting for some. People can still sound like a male without sounding "manly." I would again cite Peter Kelamis as an example of a voice that does not sound "manly," but does sound like an adult male and does fit the character very well.

I honestly can't recall any instances of people insisting that Goku had to have a "manly" voice, even among those who didn't care for Nozawa's voice. That again seems to be something that people thought they heard dub fans saying, when in fact they weren't. If there have been any sentiments to the effect of, "Goku has to have a manly voice," I haven't seen them. Again, it's worth noting that the deep pitch of Goku's voice in the Big Green dub was a source of comedic amusement for many, not something that DBZ's English fandom particularly lauded.
Aim wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:31 am
This is an unbelievably charitable position to take on Sean of all people, and I commend you for it because I just couldn’t do it.
I don't see how it's generous, it's not incorrect to say that he has one of the higher-pitched voices for Goku among all the dubs of DBZ. Again, not the highest-pitched, as there are a few dubs that have a higher-voiced guy voicing him, but not that many. If you don't believe me, feel free to listen to the other voices Goku has in many other dubs...

-Latino Spanish
-French
-European Spanish
-Latino Spanish, Kai
-Greek
-Albanian
-"Big Green" English

That's just a small sample. I'll say this, though--literally every single dub ever made of DBZ has an adult male voicing him, rather than a woman. So that was not a decision that was unique to America.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:23 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:42 pm
I mean, I'm probably not the best person to give this opinion since I never thought Nozawa's voice for adult Goku ever sounded believably like an adult male. Her acting is consistently phenomenal no matter which character she's playing and no matter which stage of their life they're in, I just never bought that her voice sounded like an adult male when she voiced adult male characters. I basically rationalized it by saying, "Eh, whatever, it's a cartoon, cartoon characters can have cartoony voices."
this is a few pages back but honestly, of all people's issues with nozawa's performance, i feel like "it's not realistic to a adult male" is the most silly. ignoring the fact that it's dragon ball with all of it's weirdness, it just seems like you would have a hard time enjoying most things with voice acting if that's the issue. there's liberates you can take with voice acting, takehito koyasu doesn't sound like a 17 year old but he's such a incredible actor and plays touga so well, that, does it really matter ? and it's the same with nozawa. not that there aren't reasonable and valid issues to have with nozawa's performance (it is just a hard voice to get used to, no matter which way you cut it), but that one's always seemed like a stretch.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:44 am

Aim wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:31 am

It’s strange how it’s mostly people like you who think this way. Not meant to be an insult by the way, I realise it may come off like one if I don’t clarify.

I personally believe the west has catered this idea of masculinity that we assign to every male super hero,

It’s like you’re just generating arguments out of an AI.

Yes, I’m so concern about masculinity I think it doesn’t work for Trunk as a kid, to be voiced by a grown man. Huh?!?


You can like try reading people’s arguments instead of churning out stock discourse?

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:09 am

Oh okay, so now our problem with Nozawa voicing all these characters is because we aren't socially enlightened enough. :crazy:

A dub should no way be beholden to the Japanese performances. The Japanese voices themselves are just but one company's interpretation of the manga characters - they're not something definitive and set in stone. The priority should ALWAYS be finding who you think fits the character, not who can imitate the Japanese version.

And Schemmel's Goku, even during the Clark KentKu days of the original Funi dub, was hardly the most manly sounding guy - which is actually what made it jarring when they gave him those Superman speeches and delivery. He's closer vocally to Peter Kalamis. The only real manly man voices for Goku were actually outside of Funimation - Kirby Morrow in the Westwood dub, and Big Green. And I guess Ian Corlett sounded more like your average adult male, but not necessarily testerone-fueled manliness.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:57 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:23 am
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:42 pm
I mean, I'm probably not the best person to give this opinion since I never thought Nozawa's voice for adult Goku ever sounded believably like an adult male. Her acting is consistently phenomenal no matter which character she's playing and no matter which stage of their life they're in, I just never bought that her voice sounded like an adult male when she voiced adult male characters. I basically rationalized it by saying, "Eh, whatever, it's a cartoon, cartoon characters can have cartoony voices."
this is a few pages back but honestly, of all people's issues with nozawa's performance, i feel like "it's not realistic to a adult male" is the most silly. ignoring the fact that it's dragon ball with all of it's weirdness, it just seems like you would have a hard time enjoying most things with voice acting if that's the issue. there's liberates you can take with voice acting, takehito koyasu doesn't sound like a 17 year old but he's such a incredible actor and plays touga so well, that, does it really matter ? and it's the same with nozawa. not that there aren't reasonable and valid issues to have with nozawa's performance (it is just a hard voice to get used to, no matter which way you cut it), but that one's always seemed like a stretch.
It depends on the show. Like, for Monty Python sketches, I never found it distracting that female characters were obviously being played by men because it was supposed to be a silly parody. So it wasn't out of place there. DBZ, on the other hand, is a more serious show. One that admittedly grew out of a story that originated as a gag manga, and certainly not the most serious show ever made. Still, by the time we get to DBZ, the moments of drama were meant to be dramatic, not a comedic parody.

You're also certainly right that DBZ has a quirkiness to it. That's Toriyama for 'ya. That said, the dramatic moments--of which there are many--were still meant to be dramatic, and taken seriously. Serious moments are harder--not impossible, but harder--to take seriously when you have a voice that clashes with the character's visual appearance to such a degree. Yes, you certainly can take liberties with voice acting--a lot more than with other forms of acting--but you still have limits depending on how seriously you want your show to be taken.

That in and of itself is not a concern I've heard limited to dub fans, either. Let's not forget that many fans of the original Japanese version took issue with how Freeza sounded like a woman in the dub. Or heck, technically if a character's voice doesn't matter, people should have no issue with Gohan's voice as a child in the European Portuguese dub. Or Goku's in the Hebrew dub. It's not a "women can't voice men"-thing, it's a "that voice doesn't sound like it would come out of that body"-thing.

I should note again that I don't have a problem with Nozawa's voice for Goku as an adult anymore (and haven't for several years now), I just never got over that problem by talking myself into thinking that voice sounded realistic. I got over it by saying, "Whatever, it's a quirky cartoon. Plus her acting is amazing."
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:14 pm

i mean i don't know, nozawa is arguably at her best during the most dramatic and serious moments. i don't know how someone can watch like the instantaneous kamehameha scene or gohan deflecting cell's kamehameha and just be like Yeah Idk Bro It's To Obvious It's A Women Here. like does it really matter at that point ? she nails those scenes pretty much perfectly, i feel like the scenes that would take you out are more so the comedic moments, especially with her more goofy goku voice.

and look, i'm sure there's some people who just hated young as freeza because her performance after the original s3 dub sounds very much like a elderly women...but i feel like the reason most people don't like it is because it's like, bad ? like even the original s3 dub with the voice filter or whatever, her acting was just bad, and they gave freeza such terrible lines.

like i'm not saying that there aren't instances where the voice and the character/design not matching works against the performance, or that if the actings good cast whoever, that's why i get why people don't like nozawa as boo arc gohan. he's a timid high schooler and well i don't think nozawa does a bad job, it's not that fitting of a performance though i will say, if gohan had been recasted at the start of the boo arc, i think they would've gotten a woman to voice him. gohan has more in common with a yukito then he does a heero (who honestly, is another good example of what i'm talking about). but with goku, sure the voice doesn't match the design 100 percent of the time, but the voice matches the character and situation 100 percent of the time. like i hate toru furya's tuxedo mask despite him doing fine acting wise and sounding decently enough like a young adult male (god the 90s anime sucks), because he, almost impressively, doesn't fit the character and rarely if ever emotes...which just isn't a issue with nozawa's goku.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:18 pm

Aim wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:39 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:55 pm
The idea that people want Goku to sound “manly” always seemed like a strawman. I do get that not everyone would be fond of Sean Schemmel’s performance, but some of his critics act like he gives Goku this deep and stoic Kenshiro-esque voice, when he really doesn’t at all. Sure, his voice gets lower when he plays Super Saiyan 4 Goku, but that’s an exception, and even then, it’s more raspy than deep. His regular Goku voice is hardly what I would call “macho.”
Holy, this is so dishonest, the English fandom for years has been fucking awful in regards to this, the most common argument in that side is “Sorry, I want my Goku to sound like a man, not an old lady. Goku’s a man with muscles and is meant to be manly”.

Goku’s natural voice in the dub is fine, but it sounds so forced when his voice goes through basically a complete personality swap when he fights. It sounds so stiff when you have Goku being as close to Goku as you can get, then all of a sudden changing when a fight starts. I should have been clearer in saying that the deep voice problem comes from conflict scenes usually, which then leaks into the regular natural voice which ends up making him sound incredibly stiff and forced. It’s like trying to meet both fans in the middle.
What am I being dishonest about? I said that Sean Schemmel’s Goku voice isn’t as stereotypically “manly” as you’re making it sound. It’s simply not a very deep voice, plain and simple. Sure, you can tell that it’s a man doing the voice, but that doesn’t suddenly make it “macho.” Chris Sabat’s Piccolo has a deep voice. Dameon Clarke’s Perfect Cell has a deep voice. Rick Robertson’s Dabura has an especially deep voice. Sean Schemmel’s Goku? No, not really.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by dragonmagico » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:34 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:44 am



You can like try reading people’s arguments instead of churning out stock discourse?
I'm like 90% sure he is just a troll gone off the deep end at this point. Putting words in others mouth's inventing new arguments instead of replying to what people are saying, blatantly ignoring facts...

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:21 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:03 am
I didn't say they want a "manly voice," I said the people who take issue with Nozawa's voice for Goku as an adult take issue with it because it sounds too obviously like a woman, which clashes with Goku's appearance to the point of being distracting for some. People can still sound like a male without sounding "manly." I would again cite Peter Kelamis as an example of a voice that does not sound "manly," but does sound like an adult male and does fit the character very well.
Again, I find this very strange it’s mostly people on your side who haven’t watched DB through to Z in its original form who constantly say it doesn’t fit. Everyone I’ve spoken to thinks the opposite, that it’s just a little odd but nonetheless the voice fits him. Again, I point you towards Identity, a literal male who sounds like Nozawa. Why does every male have to sound like the stereotypical male?

Peter Kelamis isn’t a great VA for Goku in my opinion, maybe that could change but the only thing going for him is the screams. Being a VA usually comes with being able to manipulate the voice, so with some practice he probably could cook up something vastly better.

I honestly can't recall any instances of people insisting that Goku had to have a "manly" voice, even among those who didn't care for Nozawa's voice. That again seems to be something that people thought they heard dub fans saying, when in fact they weren't. If there have been any sentiments to the effect of, "Goku has to have a manly voice," I haven't seen them. Again, it's worth noting that the deep pitch of Goku's voice in the Big Green dub was a source of comedic amusement for many, not something that DBZ's English fandom particularly lauded.
“That again seems to be something that people thought they heard dub fans saying, when in fact they weren't.”, this sounds to me like you probably would have seen it, but you would have agreed and moved on without a second thought. Even when I was a die hard dub fan I saw those comments. I don’t want to suggest you’re a liar because I don’t think you are, however I think you’re either incredibly sheltered and have spent most of your time here on Kanzenshuu, or due to the subject matter not meaning much to you, when it has come up you’ve simply skimmed over it.
I don't see how it's generous, it's not incorrect to say that he has one of the higher-pitched voices for Goku among all the dubs of DBZ. Again, not the highest-pitched, as there are a few dubs that have a higher-voiced guy voicing him, but not that many. If you don't believe me, feel free to listen to the other voices Goku has in many other dubs...

-Latino Spanish
-French
-European Spanish
-Latino Spanish, Kai
-Greek
-Albanian
-"Big Green" English
To reiterate one last time,

“That said, there’s a difference between what Sean does, being a completely over the top (even for DB standards) “manly battle cry” with his voice breaking partly, and Nozawa’s voice just being, well, simply put, a male who sounds a little strange but none the less fits Son Goku, after all he is a weird guy, lol.”

With that said the fact he can’t stick to one voice and instead tries to please fans on both sides makes the voice especially in Super sound super stiff and just unnatural.
That's just a small sample. I'll say this, though--literally every single dub ever made of DBZ has an adult male voicing him, rather than a woman. So that was not a decision that was unique to America.
I don’t think it matters whether other countries have done it, it would be far less of a problem if the character and actual series wasn’t bastardised to the extent that it was.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:44 am

It’s like you’re just generating arguments out of an AI.

Yes, I’m so concern about masculinity I think it doesn’t work for Trunk as a kid, to be voiced by a grown man. Huh?!?


You can like try reading people’s arguments instead of churning out stock discourse?
This is incredibly rich coming from someone who’s arguments have mostly been “W-why should WE follow the original >:-(“. Your only problem is that the characters are voiced by a man, or a woman, you’re entire premise has basically been that and the above. I had no idea child Trunks was even voiced by a man until you pointed it out. These VA’s are talented enough to pull it off, you don’t like it because you want everything to abide by a strict set of rules we have made here in the west.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:18 pm
What am I being dishonest about? I said that Sean Schemmel’s Goku voice isn’t as stereotypically “manly” as you’re making it sound. It’s simply not a very deep voice, plain and simple. Sure, you can tell that it’s a man doing the voice, but that doesn’t suddenly make it “macho.” Chris Sabat’s Piccolo has a deep voice. Dameon Clarke’s Perfect Cell has a deep voice. Rick Robertson’s Dabura has an especially deep voice. Sean Schemmel’s Goku? No, not really.
“Goku’s natural voice in the dub is fine, but it sounds so forced when his voice goes through basically a complete personality swap when he fights. It sounds so stiff when you have Goku being as close to Goku as you can get, then all of a sudden changing when a fight starts. I should have been clearer in saying that the deep voice problem comes from conflict scenes usually, which then leaks into the regular natural voice which ends up making him sound incredibly stiff and forced.”

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:27 pm

dragonmagico wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:34 pm
I'm like 90% sure he is just a troll gone off the deep end at this point. Putting words in others mouth's inventing new arguments instead of replying to what people are saying, blatantly ignoring facts...
Explain to me how I’m a troll. Words have been put in my mouth countless times in this thread, an example being when you lot were basically saying I was accusing you all of looking down on the original VA’s, when in actuality, when did I allude to others saying the original VA weren’t talented? This is going to come down to the typical way these threads go, you make arguments with holes in them, I point them out, then you all start to dog pile. It’s the way it typically goes because unfortunately you people outnumber me significantly. Though anyone with decent analysis skills will see what’s happening here. You might want to look below, there has been nothing but taking and putting words in my mouth.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:09 am
Oh okay, so now our problem with Nozawa voicing all these characters is because we aren't socially enlightened enough. :crazy:
This is what I mean, you people get desperate, put words in my mouth, then gaslight the thread and suggest it’s me doing it. At this point Mike should come in and kick you out the thread, since your not adding anything of value here, just the same NPC bullshit the rest are starting to do.

A dub should no way be beholden to the Japanese performances. The Japanese voices themselves are just but one company's interpretation of the manga characters - they're not something definitive and set in stone. The priority should ALWAYS be finding who you think fits the character, not who can imitate the Japanese version.
A dub should absolutely be beholden to carry out performances as close to the original spirit as possible, if there’s this much of a cultural barrier, then there shouldn’t be a dub, period. Make a different story seperate from the said franchise.

This isn’t a series where the original is a shit show of bad VA’s, they fit, the fact they fit actually makes it easier since you’d know what you’re working with. Finding VA’s to match the voices and spirit is crucial to making a dub that will certainly blow people away. However, that said if it’s not possible to find people that can fit close to the Japanese, which is rarely ever a problem, we know this, then finding someone who is competent enough to match the spirit (spirit spirit spirit, it’s becoming redundant I know), then that’s fine. That’s obviously not what’s happened though.
And Schemmel's Goku, even during the Clark KentKu days of the original Funi dub, was hardly the most manly sounding guy - which is actually what made it jarring when they gave him those Superman speeches and delivery. He's closer vocally to Peter Kalamis. The only real manly man voices for Goku were actually outside of Funimation - Kirby Morrow in the Westwood dub, and Big Green. And I guess Ian Corlett sounded more like your average adult male, but not necessarily testerone-fueled manliness.
Specifically been talking about the recent voice acting in the series, not what we got all those years ago.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:45 pm

My "analysis skill" say that you want every English dub to rigidly follow the Japanese version even though the choices the Japanese version made weren't hardline rules, but largely convenience and depending on what your taste is, were either fine choices or weird choices that are better off changed.

As for Schemmel's voice sounding "too manly" during serious scenes...I mean, he's an adult male being serious. How is he supposed to sound, exactly? Sean Schemmel being gruff is more like, his Super Saiyan 3/4 voice.

There's no rule that says Goku needs a high pitched voice.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:57 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:45 pm
My "analysis skill" say that you want every English dub to rigidly follow the Japanese version even though the choices the Japanese version made weren't hardline rules, but largely convenience and depending on what your taste is, were either fine choices or weird choices that are better off changed.
Not once did I suggest it should be rigidly followed, if it can be followed it should be. You use “convenience” as a first decision on TOEI’s part even though we all know they probably wouldn’t have done it if it didn’t work. Allowing companies to do as they please leads to a fandom that is completely disassociated with the actual franchise, and since it’s a bigger country, it spreads and poisons the well everywhere else.
As for Schemmel's voice sounding "too manly" during serious scenes...I mean, he's an adult male being serious. How is he supposed to sound, exactly? Sean Schemmel being gruff is more like, his Super Saiyan 3/4 voice.

There's no rule that says Goku needs a high pitched voice.
Exactly my point, not only is this NOT in Goku’s character, he sounds incredibly arrogant and to be quite frank like a second Vegeta in some scenes. In case you haven’t picked this up, Son Goku isn’t meant to be your “manly man” sounding character, as well as in personality. There’s no rules that dubs need to be accurate, true, but that doesn’t really justify what’s happened. Sorry, but in the end it’s a rule of not only respect, but basic knowledge that you don’t go and change up these things if you don’t have to.

Your analysis is skewed if these are the conclusions you have come to.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:01 pm

....Even Nozawa makes her Goku voice an octave or so lower for Super Saiyan 3 and 4, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Goku not being meant to sound like a manly man (whatever that is) is a fabricated rule anyway that sounds more like a backwards justification to make Nozawa's voice the only route to go. Goku sounding gruffer in two gruffer forms makes sense. In the Japanese version and the manga, his speech even becomes rougher and more formal in those forms and especially for SSJ1 pre-Rosat
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:20 pm

The demand for faithful dubs for the pre-Kai series' just isn't there especially with Z since Kai pretty much fills that niche.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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