Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

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Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Wed May 12, 2021 5:59 am

Okay, now this is something that was something I can’t stop thinking about, and it was never answered.

Why does Kanzenshuu use Kakarrot over Kakarrotto? We have the problem of Vegetto and Veget, or Vege(r)rot, which I assume would be correct if keeping it without the “tto”.

What’s the justification? Isn’t it easier just to go with Kakarrotto to fix the Vegetto situation? If not why not change Vegetto to “Vegerot”? I know it sounds a little odd, but strictly speaking I want to know the best and most accurate way to get these into English as if there was a new dub coming that portrayed itself as a true adaption.

Basically same as my thread for Burduck but for Kakarrot.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 am

Can't speak for Kanzenshuu's decisions, but I can tell you mine for doing the same. Steve Simmons also made the same decision for some reason.

I believe that it should be "Kakarrot." The "to" sound in the end is just the nature of kana. However, stylistically, "Veget" or "Vegett" looks... how it looks. It also doesn't borrow enough from Goku's name, whereas that's not a problem in Japanese. I don't use "Vegerot" any more than I use "Hercule" because that's simply not his name. Cute on Viz's part to find a nice workaround, but they renamed the character.

This "issue" only exists in the nature of translating the series. This is absolutely not a problem in the series's native tongue. So, I overlook the "to" dilemma.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Thanos » Wed May 12, 2021 9:46 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 am
I believe that it should be "Kakarrot." The "to" sound in the end is just the nature of kana. However, stylistically, "Veget" or "Vegett" looks... how it looks. It also doesn't borrow enough from Goku's name, whereas that's not a problem in Japanese.
I think this is a strange case because Vegetto legitimizes “Kakarotto” retroactively. Prior to his existence there wouldn’t be much reason to include the ‘to’ bit, but “Vegetto” doesn’t really make sense without it. Ultimately, I don’t know why it was such a big deal to omit the ‘to’ as to completely rename to the contrived “Vegerot”—removing it seems to complicate things whereas keeping it intact does no harm, which is why I personally have used Kakarotto for years.
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed May 12, 2021 9:56 am

Thanos wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:46 am
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 am
I believe that it should be "Kakarrot." The "to" sound in the end is just the nature of kana. However, stylistically, "Veget" or "Vegett" looks... how it looks. It also doesn't borrow enough from Goku's name, whereas that's not a problem in Japanese.
I think this is a strange case because Vegetto legitimizes “Kakarotto” retroactively. Prior to his existence there wouldn’t be much reason to include the ‘to’ bit, but “Vegetto” doesn’t really make sense without it. Ultimately, I don’t know why it was such a big deal to omit the ‘to’ as to completely rename to the contrived “Vegerot”—removing it seems to complicate things whereas keeping it intact does no harm, which is why I personally have used Kakarotto for years.
Actually, after years of back and forth, I've landed on using "Kakarotto" myself until the gane came out and now, I've just decided to use "Kakarot." I feel like it's not really wrong and since an official product is out there with that title, I should just go with it. It's the same thing I feel with "Broli" and "Broly."

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Zephyr » Wed May 12, 2021 10:31 am

I'm torn at the moment between "Kakarrot" and "Vegett" or "Kakarrotto" and "Vegetto".

Or we could go with his original name in the serialization and call him Gogeta. :P

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Wed May 12, 2021 11:20 am

1. “Vegetto” is an untranslatable name that only makes sense when joined as well as separated in Japanese so no workarounds are possible.
2. “Kakarotto” is simply a pun made off the English word “Carrot” which for obvious linguistic reasons means that “Kakarotto” can only be said in English as “Kakarot” so the pun still makes sense. If written with Katakana Carrot would just mean removing the extra “Ka” from “Kakarotto”.
3. This is only the tip of the iceberg of the sheer number of terms that tend to get lost in translation.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Chuquita » Wed May 12, 2021 12:00 pm

I like the way the names sound with a vowel at the end because I think it has more impact when a character yells Kakarrotto than Kakarrot which forces the weight onto the rot part of the word. Same with Vegetto. Just my opinion though.
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Thanos » Thu May 13, 2021 12:02 am

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 11:20 am
1. “Vegetto” is an untranslatable name that only makes sense when joined as well as separated in Japanese so no workarounds are possible.
2. “Kakarotto” is simply a pun made off the English word “Carrot” which for obvious linguistic reasons means that “Kakarotto” can only be said in English as “Kakarot” so the pun still makes sense. If written with Katakana Carrot would just mean removing the extra “Ka” from “Kakarotto”.
3. This is only the tip of the iceberg of the sheer number of terms that tend to get lost in translation.
What am I missing here...? No offense but a lot of those seems like arbitrary reasons. How does "to" destroy the pun any more than the other rearranged names? You're literally only adding an 'o' sound to it. The word isn't "carrotto", sure, but it also isn't "cacarrot", is it? "Tullece" is rather different from "Lettuce", but the pun is still recognizable. The one situation where preserving a specific part of the name makes sense (so that "Vegetto" makes sense) and somehow, it "can only be said in English as 'Kakarot'"? Do you propose the characters be renamed to Vegetable, Radish, Asparagus, Broccoli, etc. "so the pun still makes sense"?

To me the whole thing feels like you're burning the whole house down and rebuilding it because the toilet is clogged, but what do I know?
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu May 13, 2021 12:29 am

Chuquita wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:00 pm
I like the way the names sound with a vowel at the end because I think it has more impact when a character yells Kakarrotto than Kakarrot which forces the weight onto the rot part of the word. Same with Vegetto. Just my opinion though.
yeah really agree with this, chiba as raditz screaming KAKARROTTO like a madman just wouldn't have the same impact without the -to at the end.
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu May 13, 2021 6:46 am

Of course, though, this is all moot as it's basically been confirmed to be intended as "Kakarrot" or "Kakarot" seeing as in the Broly movie, they have a song that literally chants "Kakarrot/Kakarot."

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Thu May 13, 2021 10:06 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 am
I don't use "Vegerot" any more than I use "Hercule" because that's simply not his name. Cute on Viz's part to find a nice workaround, but they renamed the character.

This "issue" only exists in the nature of translating the series. This is absolutely not a problem in the series's native tongue. So, I overlook the "to" dilemma.
I mean, there’s a difference between Hercule which objectively isn’t his name and using Vegerot which is just substituting for Vegetto because “tto” is just the nature of Katana.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Thu May 13, 2021 10:08 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:56 am
Thanos wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:46 am
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:52 am
I believe that it should be "Kakarrot." The "to" sound in the end is just the nature of kana. However, stylistically, "Veget" or "Vegett" looks... how it looks. It also doesn't borrow enough from Goku's name, whereas that's not a problem in Japanese.
I think this is a strange case because Vegetto legitimizes “Kakarotto” retroactively. Prior to his existence there wouldn’t be much reason to include the ‘to’ bit, but “Vegetto” doesn’t really make sense without it. Ultimately, I don’t know why it was such a big deal to omit the ‘to’ as to completely rename to the contrived “Vegerot”—removing it seems to complicate things whereas keeping it intact does no harm, which is why I personally have used Kakarotto for years.
Actually, after years of back and forth, I've landed on using "Kakarotto" myself until the gane came out and now, I've just decided to use "Kakarot." I feel like it's not really wrong and since an official product is out there with that title, I should just go with it. It's the same thing I feel with "Broli" and "Broly."
Official products get it wrong all the time, look at Funimation. Their entire line of DB is a mistake.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Thu May 13, 2021 10:16 am

Thanos wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:02 am
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 11:20 am
1. “Vegetto” is an untranslatable name that only makes sense when joined as well as separated in Japanese so no workarounds are possible.
2. “Kakarotto” is simply a pun made off the English word “Carrot” which for obvious linguistic reasons means that “Kakarotto” can only be said in English as “Kakarot” so the pun still makes sense. If written with Katakana Carrot would just mean removing the extra “Ka” from “Kakarotto”.
3. This is only the tip of the iceberg of the sheer number of terms that tend to get lost in translation.
What am I missing here...? No offense but a lot of those seems like arbitrary reasons. How does "to" destroy the pun any more than the other rearranged names? You're literally only adding an 'o' sound to it. The word isn't "carrotto", sure, but it also isn't "cacarrot", is it? "Tullece" is rather different from "Lettuce", but the pun is still recognizable. The one situation where preserving a specific part of the name makes sense (so that "Vegetto" makes sense) and somehow, it "can only be said in English as 'Kakarot'"? Do you propose the characters be renamed to Vegetable, Radish, Asparagus, Broccoli, etc. "so the pun still makes sense"?

To me the whole thing feels like you're burning the whole house down and rebuilding it because the toilet is clogged, but what do I know?
I agree to an extent. Let’s not forget we say carrot “ca-rit”, not “ca-rot”, so I’m not sure if we already have been doing something wrong there, only Mike or Herms could answer that. Technically the pun would still be there, “Kakarrotto”, aka “Kakarr-itto”.

If we decided to go with Kakarrotto, how would we then go about characters like Shallot? Would that then become Shallotto as well?

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu May 13, 2021 12:19 pm

Aim wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:08 am
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:56 am
Thanos wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:46 am


I think this is a strange case because Vegetto legitimizes “Kakarotto” retroactively. Prior to his existence there wouldn’t be much reason to include the ‘to’ bit, but “Vegetto” doesn’t really make sense without it. Ultimately, I don’t know why it was such a big deal to omit the ‘to’ as to completely rename to the contrived “Vegerot”—removing it seems to complicate things whereas keeping it intact does no harm, which is why I personally have used Kakarotto for years.
Actually, after years of back and forth, I've landed on using "Kakarotto" myself until the gane came out and now, I've just decided to use "Kakarot." I feel like it's not really wrong and since an official product is out there with that title, I should just go with it. It's the same thing I feel with "Broli" and "Broly."
Official products get it wrong all the time, look at Funimation. Their entire line of DB is a mistake.
I understand what you're saying, but it comes down to this for me: for the sake of being consistent, I choose to use the name that's plastered all over official merchandise -- acknowledged by Toei, mind you -- that isn't ridiculously different. If the difference is an I or a Y or an extra R, that's not a big deal at all. I'm perfectly fine with "Broly." I mean, yeah, "Broli" is more of my preference, but then that would mean that I'd have to spell Goku's Saiyan name as "Cacarrot," which I'm not about to do. After all, how can I argue the merits of why "Broli" is correct and "Broly" isn't, while not using "Cacarrot?" That's cherry-picking.

So, to me, "Broly" preserves the pun just as much as "Kakarot" or "Kakarrot" do. As far as "Kakarot" instead of "Kakarrot," the extra R isn't that big of a deal and so, least I could do is use the spelling that any fan would know (because it's on the cover of a game that's in every store). Fine. Now, if we had a "Master Roshi" game, I would be more hesitant.

Next, I'll reiterate my point that in the Broly movie, there is a song that pronounces the name as "Kakarot" or "Kakarrot" without the "to," showing that the intended name does not have the "to" at the end and its presence is just the nature of kana.

It is wholly possible that the intended name is, in fact "Veget." Stylistically, it just doesn't look right. Look, MAYBE the "to" in Vegetto isn't combining Vegeta and "Kakarotto... Maybe it's combining Vegeta and Kakarot. I don't know. But it's not "Vegerot." Under no circumstances is it "Vegerot." Want the litmus test? Not one soul outside of English-speaking manga fans would know who you're talking about -- that's how you know it's incorrect.

It's all like a puzzle. Translating Dragon Ball's Japanese names into English is making apple juice out of oranges. It's not like the characters have obvious names like "Jim," "Mary," and "Tim." There is a lot left to interpretation and adaptation. You'll never get the perfect translation unless the creator(s) translates the work into English. Throw in the added wrinkle that now you have to worry about preserving name puns and it's extra crazy.

The only 100% non-controversial way to discuss the series, is if we spoke and wrote everything in Japanese. That's just a fact. But since we're not going to do that, then we're going to have to just do the best that we can. Some default to the version that was already translated for our convenience, some create their own. As long as it's not outrageous, it's all good. I mean, I like to use "Kurilin" for God's sake! Why? Because I like "Kuririn," but not only does it not roll off the tongue naturally when speaking English, but English-speaking fans who know him as "Krillin" would look at me like I have a rollerblade hanging out of my nose if I said it in conversation. So, I cut my losses and found middle ground. And guess what -- nobody can tell me that I'm wrong. His name has even been "Kulilin" in the manga and anime. So, it's all open to interpretation.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Thu May 13, 2021 12:22 pm

Thanos wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:02 am
What am I missing here...? No offense but a lot of those seems like arbitrary reasons. How does "to" destroy the pun any more than the other rearranged names? You're literally only adding an 'o' sound to it. The word isn't "carrotto", sure, but it also isn't "cacarrot", is it? "Tullece" is rather different from "Lettuce", but the pun is still recognizable. The one situation where preserving a specific part of the name makes sense (so that "Vegetto" makes sense) and somehow, it "can only be said in English as 'Kakarot'"? Do you propose the characters be renamed to Vegetable, Radish, Asparagus, Broccoli, etc. "so the pun still makes sense"?

To me the whole thing feels like you're burning the whole house down and rebuilding it because the toilet is clogged, but what do I know?
Because it’s not said that way in English and would actually sound ridiculous. That goes for a lot of things that frequently get lost in translation. Some things can only really be done as well as understood in the original language, it’s just a pitfall of translations altogether.
And no, I didn’t say that the characters must have the exact same names as what they’re being derived from, but if being put into English then they have to be done in such a way that the etymology is still traceable back to the original. That’s how it is in Japanese to begin with, because if they were to pronounce these words in “Engrish” (which for the record is similar to the UK variant), then their alphabetical structure would necessitate some of the modifications made that don’t in fact work in standard English.
Aim wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:16 am
I agree to an extent. Let’s not forget we say carrot “ca-rit”, not “ca-rot”, so I’m not sure if we already have been doing something wrong there, only Mike or Herms could answer that. Technically the pun would still be there, “Kakarrotto”, aka “Kakarr-itto”.

If we decided to go with Kakarrotto, how would we then go about characters like Shallot? Would that then become Shallotto as well?
Thing is, Japan doesn’t say it like that if they’re saying “carrot”. They use “-rot” but then have to say “-rotto” since aside double N no JP word or loanword can end with a consonant.

Also a tidbit for both of the posts I’m replying to here is: There isn’t any “double r” in Kakarotto (カカロット) because “ッ” (small ~tsu) isn’t used right before “ロ” (ro)

Agreed with the post above BTW. The only way to avoid any trouble is if everything were done in Japanese, which is the only true way to understand & interpret the series as it depends heavily upon numerous native linguistic characteristics. Which means you can’t ever get dubs or even subtitles that allow for a complete understanding of the series without leaving much to interpretation (especially so when the names are made up or JP renditions/combinations of foreign names). It’s as true of niche JP media series as it is of popular ones.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm

Uh we don't say "Vegerot" because it sounds absolutely terrible, there doesn't need to be another reason. lol
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu May 13, 2021 7:16 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm
Uh we don't say "Vegerot" because it sounds absolutely terrible, there doesn't need to be another reason. lol
Yeah, but more importantly... not his name, right? I mean, aren't I right? I feel like I'm the only one who's ever flat out said, "That's not his name!" But I'm right, aren't I?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Lol

Vegerot is what you'd call him if you left him out for too long.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu May 13, 2021 8:03 pm

"Vegerot" works well enough. I dislike it and agree that it's dumb, but it gets the point across without having to explain "Kakarotto".

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Thanos » Thu May 13, 2021 11:33 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:03 pm
"Vegerot" works well enough. I dislike it and agree that it's dumb, but it gets the point across without having to explain "Kakarotto".
...or just use "Kakarotto". Is it so hard to explain that it's just a pun on carrot?
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu May 13, 2021 11:50 pm

This ain't got shit to do with shit, but while Vegerot sounds lame and flaccid, Vegerotto sounds awesome.

Actually, you know what? The more I say Vegerot, the cooler it sounds. Like a European assassin. I think it's just hated because it's different.
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