Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by DBZfan29 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:42 am

Vegetto is just an awful fusion name, even though in Japanese it actually borrows one more character from Goku's name than Gogeta does. :lol: Toriyama should have just used Gogeta. We have two separate origins for him now anyway, so would it really have mattered back then? The games could have easily differentiated the two with like "Gogeta (Movie Version)" or "Gogeta (Fusion Dance)."

But I guess it's just something that's grandfathered into the fandom. Same way we still use Bulma even though Blooma makes more sense in English.
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Fri May 14, 2021 2:35 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:19 pm
I understand what you're saying, but it comes down to this for me: for the sake of being consistent, I choose to use the name that's plastered all over official merchandise -- acknowledged by Toei, mind you -- that isn't ridiculously different. If the difference is an I or a Y or an extra R, that's not a big deal at all. I'm perfectly fine with "Broly."
I’m sorry but what’s it matter what’s plastered all over the place? Son Goku isn’t Zero, is it? A difference in I or Y makes a huge difference and it negates the pun completely, Coola isn’t Cooler, you put it that way only if you write Freeza out as Freezer, using “I say it because it’s official” as a reason is a weak one at that, this is why each fandom and fan struggles to relate to the same Dragon Ball, because each are too different. Our goal should be to change that.
I mean, yeah, "Broli" is more of my preference, but then that would mean that I'd have to spell Goku's Saiyan name as "Cacarrot," which I'm not about to do. After all, how can I argue the merits of why "Broli" is correct and "Broly" isn't, while not using "Cacarrot?" That's cherry-picking.
I don’t know enough a Japanese yet to argue on Cacarrot, but in a previous thread it was answered that I’m pretty sure it can be done. “Broly” isn’t correct because you don’t say “Broccoly” and they don’t say “Bu-ro-ko-ly”. Using the carrot example is really reaching.

None of this is cherry-picking, changing names to negate puns removes the pun from Dragon Ball. I’ve noticed the cherry picking thing being said whenever people just don’t care on the subject and don’t want it changed properly.
So, to me, "Broly" preserves the pun just as much as "Kakarot" or "Kakarrot" do. As far as "Kakarot" instead of "Kakarrot," the extra R isn't that big of a deal and so, least I could do is use the spelling that any fan would know (because it's on the cover of a game that's in every store). Fine. Now, if we had a "Master Roshi" game, I would be more hesitant.
Eh, I agree with Roshi part, but in no way does Broly or Kakarot preserve the pun, telling people Broly is a pun on Broccoli would lead to some strange looks. How does Broly relate to Broccoli? Where as Broli obviously relates. Same with Kakarrot or Kakarrotto, it’s like saying “carrotto”.
Next, I'll reiterate my point that in the Broly movie, there is a song that pronounces the name as "Kakarot" or "Kakarrot" without the "to," showing that the intended name does not have the "to" at the end and its presence is just the nature of kana.
Yet all the characters use Kakarrotto, do you not think it would be different if the west didn’t use Kakarrot? They knew the film would be international. If the next movie has Vegetto will they say “Veget”?
It is wholly possible that the intended name is, in fact "Veget." Stylistically, it just doesn't look right. Look, MAYBE the "to" in Vegetto isn't combining Vegeta and "Kakarotto... Maybe it's combining Vegeta and Kakarot. I don't know. But it's not "Vegerot." Under no circumstances is it "Vegerot." Want the litmus test?
Why in the world would anyone assume it’s taking the “ot” and turning it around to make “Vegetto”? It gets worse if you go into the dubs spelling, where does the “i” come from? This is the definition of reaching for a justification.
Not one soul outside of English-speaking manga fans would know who you're talking about -- that's how you know it's incorrect.
Excuse my language but what a fucking stinky argument, you know it’s wrong because fans don’t know who “Vegerot” is? Come off it. Easily could make the argument for Lunch, or even Kamesenin.
It’s all like a puzzle. Translating Dragon Ball's Japanese names into English is making apple juice out of oranges. It's not like the characters have obvious names like "Jim," "Mary," and "Tim." There is a lot left to interpretation and adaptation. You'll never get the perfect translation unless the creator(s) translates the work into English. Throw in the added wrinkle that now you have to worry about preserving name puns and it's extra crazy.

Tell me about it, my heads about to fucking explode. Plus we don’t have Herms anymore.
The only 100% non-controversial way to discuss the series, is if we spoke and wrote everything in Japanese. That's just a fact. But since we're not going to do that, then we're going to have to just do the best that we can. Some default to the version that was already translated for our convenience, some create their own. As long as it's not outrageous, it's all good. I mean, I like to use "Kurilin" for God's sake! Why? Because I like "Kuririn," but not only does it not roll off the tongue naturally when speaking English, but English-speaking fans who know him as "Krillin" would look at me like I have a rollerblade hanging out of my nose if I said it in conversation. So, I cut my losses and found middle ground. And guess what -- nobody can tell me that I'm wrong. His name has even been "Kulilin" in the manga and anime. So, it's all open to interpretation.
Well to be fair the only reason they’d look at you funny is because they are used to Krillin. Then again, the fandom says stupid shit all the time, because the series continues to be bastardised and there’s nothing we can do. Because the company doing it is gaining a monopoly on it.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Fri May 14, 2021 2:35 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm
Uh we don't say "Vegerot" because it sounds absolutely terrible, there doesn't need to be another reason. lol
Uh, let me fix an objectively wrong, god awful name that you can’t justify the existence of.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Fri May 14, 2021 2:39 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:16 pm
Cursed Lemon wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm
Uh we don't say "Vegerot" because it sounds absolutely terrible, there doesn't need to be another reason. lol
Yeah, but more importantly... not his name, right? I mean, aren't I right? I feel like I'm the only one who's ever flat out said, "That's not his name!" But I'm right, aren't I?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Lol

Vegerot is what you'd call him if you left him out for too long.
It’s a compromise that fits the same naming scheme by taking the end of Kakarrot and combining it with “Vege”, just like they do in Japanese.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Fri May 14, 2021 2:40 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:03 pm
"Vegerot" works well enough. I dislike it and agree that it's dumb, but it gets the point across without having to explain "Kakarotto".
We really need Herms back, or Emma to help with a full proper translation of names. Makankosappo will probably stay, which is fine, i don’t think it makes sense in Japanese either.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri May 14, 2021 4:09 am

i mean if it's a Herms answer you want, he did talk about it twice where he gives some good reasons why you should or shouldn't go with kakarotto. personally i don't really see how Kakarotto obscures the pun that much and with Vegetto being a thing, i feel like it'd make a decent amount of sense for a translation of the series to just go with it. i could be missing something though.
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:52 am

@Aim, I addressed everything that you pointed out. I said that "Broly" does not preserve the pun on broccoli any less than 'Kakarrotto/Kakarrot/Kakarot" preserves the pun on carrots. Has zero to do with knowing Japanese enough. I also am not sure what you mean about "Kakarot" not correctly preserving the pun either... does "Kakarrot" preserve it better in your opinion? Is adding the R that impactful in your opinion? And I said that arguing that "Broli" is correct while "Broly" isn't while using "Kakarot" instead of "Cacarrot" is cherry-picking... because it is. You might've seen the cherry-picking argument being used when someone "doesn't have an argument," but... that's exactly what my scenario is. What phrasing would be better for you? Being a hypocrite? Arguing over one name but turning a blind eye to the exact same issue regarding another name? What helps here?

Changing letters around to similar-sounding ones doesn't negate the pun. If I named a character "Kuul Kar" or "Cheri Blosum," you'd still understand the puns, right?

"Who cares if it's plastered all over merchandise?" As many things in life, it's preference. If Toei and whoever else decided that they wanted to use Funimation's naming scheme and it's not a real departure from the name, I'll take it. Sounds exactly the same when you say it, so it's fine for me.

But then, you justify "Vegerot" and I don't get it. You gave me a hard time about I vs. Y, but are talking about how they put the name together because of blah, blah -- it's NOT his name. Yes, it's impossible to make the name make sense in English, but that's because it's a Japanese series. What do you want? Changing a name just because it's difficult to translate/adapt is dumb. I'm sorry, but who cares? He literally has one throw-away line where he names himself -- is it that big of a deal? So that line won't make sense, we'll scratch our heads for 2 seconds every time we hear/read it, and move on with ourselves. OR we can, I don't know, actually respect the idea that we're watching/reading a Japanese story and understand why it is what it is. I would have zero problems if in the dub or Viz's manga, Vegetto uses the word "Kakarotto" for that instance. It's way less agregious than changing the name entirely because it "doesn't translate well."

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri May 14, 2021 7:57 am

Aim wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 2:35 am
this is why each fandom and fan struggles to relate to the same Dragon Ball, because each are too different. Our goal should be to change that.

Then again, the fandom says stupid shit all the time, because the series continues to be bastardised and there’s nothing we can do. Because the company doing it is gaining a monopoly on it.
Really too late, the damage has been done and it would actually have been better if the series hadn’t altogether fallen into American hands to begin with at the time. And if it were a few years prior to when they actually did then it would be much worse than now.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 14, 2021 1:32 pm

Aim wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 2:35 am
Cursed Lemon wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm
Uh we don't say "Vegerot" because it sounds absolutely terrible, there doesn't need to be another reason. lol
Uh, let me fix an objectively wrong, god awful name that you can’t justify the existence of.
Not sure if doubling down or sarcastically agreeing with me
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Fri May 14, 2021 6:25 pm

I consider this purist pursuit for things to be definitive and perfect in all aspects is not how I ever want to enjoy this series. I think people should be able to enjoy their own variation of this series, dub, sub, raw, music, voice acting, color correcting, spliced, old, new, manga, anime, accurate, script changes, innaccuracy, canon, non-canon, head-canon...etc.

A part, yes a part of what makes Dragon Ball great for many people is that there are so many ways to enjoy it and because there is it has appealed to a demographic larger than just one specific group. Everyone should be entitled to enjoy this series the way they particularly want without someone harping over what is the most definitive way. The true definitive way is whatever you feel is best, for you, but keep in mind what you feel is best is not a universal thing nor should it ever be.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by pepd » Fri May 14, 2021 7:18 pm

And that includes those who enjoy the series this way. If is just a related remark, sure, but I don't think anyone here is asking for the bashing of the different versions or getting into others's enjoyment or unrelated discussion; they just want a version for themselves more accurate to the original, at most for the official version to be this, and sometimes times just want to know what that would be.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Sat May 15, 2021 3:48 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:09 am
i mean if it's a Herms answer you want, he did talk about it twice where he gives some good reasons why you should or shouldn't go with kakarotto. personally i don't really see how Kakarotto obscures the pun that much and with Vegetto being a thing, i feel like it'd make a decent amount of sense for a translation of the series to just go with it. i could be missing something though.
I appreciate the attempt at directing me to some help, but none of that is helping, Herms is constantly vague in his response on Kanzenshuu, all he said was is that the ending “o” can be seen as extraneous, but not always.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Sat May 15, 2021 3:49 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:52 am
@Aim, I addressed everything that you pointed out. I said that "Broly" does not preserve the pun on broccoli any less than 'Kakarrotto/Kakarrot/Kakarot" preserves the pun on carrots. Has zero to do with knowing Japanese enough. I also am not sure what you mean about "Kakarot" not correctly preserving the pun either... does "Kakarrot" preserve it better in your opinion? Is adding the R that impactful in your opinion?
Yes, adding the extra “r” would preserve the pun more if your looking at the word. “Kakarrot” and “Carrot” have obvious similarities, especially than “Kakarot”.
And I said that arguing that "Broli" is correct while "Broly" isn't while using "Kakarot" instead of "Cacarrot" is cherry-picking... because it is.
Cacarrot I don’t think it’s necessary correct, but again, something Herms could answer. Tell me what is wrong with wanting what’s best for a series you love? Cherry picking us absolutely fine but in this case there’s little to none of it.

You might've seen the cherry-picking argument being used when someone "doesn't have an argument," but... that's exactly what my scenario is. What phrasing would be better for you? Being a hypocrite? Arguing over one name but turning a blind eye to the exact same issue regarding another name? What helps here?
I don’t understand what you are asking.
Changing letters around to similar-sounding ones doesn't negate the pun. If I named a character "Kuul Kar" or "Cheri Blosum," you'd still understand the puns, right?
Kakarot is less noticeable due to us not actually saying the “rot” part in English, which is why the spelling is better left with two r’s in my opinion.
"Who cares if it's plastered all over merchandise?" As many things in life, it's preference. If Toei and whoever else decided that they wanted to use Funimation's naming scheme and it's not a real departure from the name, I'll take it. Sounds exactly the same when you say it, so it's fine for me.
If you don’t care enough, you shouldn’t be on this thread, no offence. This is about what’s best, not about what Toei does, the western world is larger than the Japanese one, so of course it will drift into Japanese products eventually.
But then, you justify "Vegerot" and I don't get it. You gave me a hard time about I vs. Y, but are talking about how they put the name together because of blah, blah -- it's NOT his name.
Oh I see, you didn’t read my fucking comment, let me explain ONE last time. “Vegerot” is a compromise because “tto” may not necessarily be appropriate for the name. Vegerot is not comparable to Kienzan being Destructo Disk or Frieza or cooler. Because there’s no reason to compromise.
Yes, it's impossible to make the name make sense in English, but that's because it's a Japanese series. What do you want? Changing a name just because it's difficult to translate/adapt is dumb. I'm sorry, but who cares? He literally has one throw-away line where he names himself -- is it that big of a deal? So that line won't make sense, we'll scratch our heads for 2 seconds every time we hear/read it, and move on with ourselves.

It’s not impossible, you just don’t care enough, in which I suggest you stop engaging if you’ve reached a satisfying conclusion yourself, I am on a different mission here.
OR we can, I don't know, actually respect the idea that we're watching/reading a Japanese story and understand why it is what it is. I would have zero problems if in the dub or Viz's manga, Vegetto uses the word "Kakarotto" for that instance. It's way less agregious than changing the name entirely because it "doesn't translate well."
This is so ironic considering you have been essentially supporting the dumb spellings of these names because they are officially used. You either say Kakarrotto to match or you say Kakarrot and use Vegerot, you don’t confuse people more. This is just one of those things unfortunately.
Last edited by Aim on Sat May 15, 2021 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Sat May 15, 2021 3:49 am

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:57 am
Really too late, the damage has been done and it would actually have been better if the series hadn’t altogether fallen into American hands to begin with at the time. And if it were a few years prior to when they actually did then it would be much worse than now.
Is it too late to advocate for a community that’s been in the gutter for years? I say it’s only too late once everyone has given up. Years ago people would have said it was too late to get a proper release of Dragon Ball, yet we have one, by fans, though it’s far better than what Toei and funi have ever produced. If we stop caring, we give up DB to more bastardisation. It’s never too late, as there’s always new generations of fans. Old Funi DB could have died out years ago, but bad decisions happened and now we’re here.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Sat May 15, 2021 3:51 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:25 pm
I consider this purist pursuit for things to be definitive and perfect in all aspects is not how I ever want to enjoy this series. I think people should be able to enjoy their own variation of this series, dub, sub, raw, music, voice acting, color correcting, spliced, old, new, manga, anime, accurate, script changes, innaccuracy, canon, non-canon, head-canon...etc.
Sorry, but what a shit move, I’m trying to find out the closest and best way to translate these names, and I’m being alluded to being a purist who’s pushing my preference onto others when it’s been none stop dub fans that do this all the time? This is actually starting to piss me off how the threads I start always derail into this, when all I’ve asked a simple question here and there’s people who are talking for the sake of it not contributing. If you don’t like it, leave. You may like Funi’s DB, but just remember that’s the most prevalent version and I think it angers dub stans that since Super’s release the sub has gotten more engrained in the fandom.
A part, yes a part of what makes Dragon Ball great for many people is that there are so many ways to enjoy it and because there is it has appealed to a demographic larger than just one specific group. Everyone should be entitled to enjoy this series the way they particularly want without someone harping over what is the most definitive way. The true definitive way is whatever you feel is best, for you, but keep in mind what you feel is best is not a universal thing nor should it ever be.
Yes, nostalgia is great and I got into Dragon Ball watching the old dub, however this insulting “adaptation” shouldn’t be forced into modern DB like it has. This isn’t a problem with “purists”, this is a problem with the majority of the west whose toxicity has found its way into all versions of Dragon Ball. Let me remind you of the apparent backlash funi got for not using Destructo Disk.

People are free to enjoy what they want, but don’t call it Dragon Ball. Funi’s old dub is not the same and you can try convince yourself it’s close enough. The amount of people I have spoken to who have said things to me about DB which I have thought “huh”, and then I realise it was something that the dub came up with is unbelievable.

Tbh this just sounds like “both sides bad leave each other alone”, when this thread isn’t about that at all.
Last edited by Aim on Sat May 15, 2021 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Aim » Sat May 15, 2021 3:51 am

pepd wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:18 pm
And that includes those who enjoy the series this way. If is just a related remark, sure, but I don't think anyone here is asking for the bashing of the different versions or getting into others's enjoyment or unrelated discussion; they just want a version for themselves more accurate to the original, at most for the official version to be this, and sometimes times just want to know what that would be.
THANK YOU!! Am I crazy or is this beginning to derail into a “just respect my preference (that I’m pushing onto you)!!!”. Like I’ve asked a question and these threads always end up like this, ALWAYS by these stans. Good lord this forum needs moderation, because it becomes a ces pool whenever these topics come up. Am I a purist? Depends on what you define as a purist, “Saiya-Jin”? No, that’s silly, “Saiyan”? Yes, that’s how it’s done in English.

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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 15, 2021 8:47 am

Aim wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 3:51 am

Yes, nostalgia is great and I got into Dragon Ball watching the old dub, however this insulting “adaptation” shouldn’t be forced into modern DB like it has. This isn’t a problem with “purists”, this is a problem with the majority of the west whose toxicity has found its way into all versions of Dragon Ball. Let me remind you of the apparent backlash funi got for not using Destructo Disk.

People are free to enjoy what they want, but don’t call it Dragon Ball. Funi’s old dub is not the same and you can try convince yourself it’s close enough. The amount of people I have spoken to who have said things to me about DB which I have thought “huh”, and then I realise it was something that the dub came up with is unbelievable.

Tbh this just sounds like “both sides bad leave each other alone”, when this thread isn’t about that at all.
The only one here being toxic is you, man. Tone it down. Everyone else is being respectful here.
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Re: Why does Kanzenshuu go with “Kakarrot” despite still having to deal with “Vegetto” over “Veget”? Mike?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat May 15, 2021 9:46 am

I do not speak Japanese. I do not necessarily have the final say on what our style guide is on Kanzenshuu. I certainly have input, but I also take the advice given to me and carefully consider it.

If you want to talk to Jake, as has been mentioned several times, you can just ask him directly yourself, perhaps even off-site. He may not regularly look for questions to answer here, particularly when you're calling out my name in the title.

Kanzenshuu also has several other translators, both on the administrative level (Julian, who has been here longer than Jake), and on the contributor level (Stacey, Ian, Jose...). I think it's worth considering why they may not have responded to you here.

We have used "Kakarrot" for a long time. We're going to keep using that for now. We may at some point change our mind. There are some spellings we have used and never changed, and there are others we have changed multiple times.

Not every name adaptation/transliteration/translation in the Dragon Ball franchise is going to be perfect coming from Japanese to "English." We do the best we can with what we're given with the information available to us to bring out the best understanding. Sometimes that involves preserving pronunciation. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it involves echoing direct spellings in our language. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes that all means there will be broken consistency with other decisions and spellings. It can't be helped.

Character entries on our forthcoming wiki will all list their pun sources and the Kanzenshuu style guide reasoning for name spelling decisions.

I am issuing an account strike against "Aim" for repeated toxicity and general instigation.

Please don't be weird and troublesome.

This thread will now be locked.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

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