How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

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How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hypersayian » Tue May 18, 2021 6:08 am

Hello - new member - decade long DB + DBZ fan. (GT is a bitterweet thing)

And while I wanted to like DBS - it had a good soundtrack, mostly good animation/voice acting and an ok story - what hampered my enjoyment of the series was the broken powerscaling and the ridiculous power jumps. Many DBS fans simply dont care about power scaling/consistency and claim that Z was broken as well - but to me this is a nonsensical claim.

While Z was not perfect by a long shot - it at least tried to explain powerjumps and was mostly consistent with powerscaling:

- Before they Sayians arrived, one year of training. And while it didnt make sense that they surpassed Raditz in just one year - while it didnt make sense that the Z fighters managed to get much stronger after one year of training than Goku did after 3 years of training between the World Tournaments - they still had one whole year of training. Even after this year the Z fighters were still much weaker than Nappa and Goku was much weaker than Vegeta.

- During the Namek Saga there was training/Fusion/Gurus Power unleashing and a massive Zenkai abuse. And while it was pretty bad that Goku went from a Pl of 90 000 to 3 Million after one Zenkai and Vegeta from 50 000 or 60 0000 to 450 000+ after a few hours of sleep and 2 Million+ after another Zenkai - there was some form of explanation. The jumps were large, the explanation was shaky - but it was there. Had they just used Gurus ability on Goku/Vegeta, the jumps would have been much more believable - but oh well.

- Before the Androids arrived 3 years of training. And while it didnt make sense that some robots were stronger than Frieza or a SSJ - it was mentioned that they had "infinite energy". This means they are powered by a miniature black hole, sun or some energy source that is superior to the likes of Frieza/SSJ. Its a shaky explanation but it is there.

- During the Cell Saga there was Fusion/Absorbtion/one year of extra hard training/ new transformations

- Before the Buu Saga 7 years of training (obviously not Gohan lol)

- During the Buu Saga Fusion/training/ absorbtion/ power unleashing by a Kai

Some things didnt make much sense, some power jumps were ridiculously large and some explanations are pretty shaky. But despite all flaws Z had - it was infinitely better than Super:

So SSJG and SSJGSSJ are thousands or trillions or octillions of times stronger than SSJ3 - yet Frieza managed to reach this level after training for just 4 months and unlocking one new transformation? The "Prodigy" explanation and "I have never trained in my life" are nonsense explanations. Vegeta was a prodigy as well, born much stronger than Goku, yet he never managed to get much stronger than Goku (After the Saiyan Saga). And if someone hasnt trained his entire life - what kind of 4 month training could have raised their power so quickly and enormously?

Since we saw that base Vegeta was superior to SSJ3 Gotenks, it would mean that Final Form Frieza went from his Namek strenght to SSJ 1/2/3 Vegito level after just 4 months. Goku/Vegeta needed the God ritual/training to achieve this power. Its also awfully convenient that the Golden Transformation makes Frieza thousands or trillions or octillions of times stronger, instead of the 2x or 50x his previous transformations. If Frieza could have rivalled SSJ3 Buu saga Goku after 4 months of training + one more transformation it would have been bad enough - but his galactic power jump in Super - in such a short amount of time - is just bs.

Then we have movie version Shisami (Zarbon/Dodoria level) able to hold his own against Piccolo (Perfect Cell level) - like wtf?
Anime version Tagoma did the same - just went from Zarbon/Dodoria level to PC level - in just 4 months. Guy could have trained for just 2 weeks and would have surpassed Namek Saga Frieza and King Cold. Guy could have trained for 2 months and would have surpassed Super Vegeta.... all of this doesnt make any sense. Suddenly everyone becomes 1000x better at increasing their strenght compared to Z.

By the time of Universe 6 Vs 7 the powerscaling breaks down entirely. Suddenly everyone is stronger than SSJ1/2/3 Vegito. Hit can seriously hurt a SSJGSSJ Vegeta but Goku who should have 0.0000000000000001% of Vegetas power in his base can take several hits no problem. Base Goku should have been dead after one single punch...

Hit who can barely hold his own against Goku as a SSJGSSJ can hold his own against a SSJGSSJ Kaioken x10. He should have been dead after one punch......

Then we have a Future Trunks who as a SSJ2 is somewhat comparable to SSJ2 Goku. This would mean SSJ2 Trunks is like 100x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks because a SSJ2 is 100x base and we saw that SSJ3 Gotenks was no match for Base Vegeta. It took Goku/Vegeta 7 years to get from weaker than Perfect Cell to weaker/comparable to Majin Buu. Trunks apparently went from weaker than Perfect Cell to 200x Fat Buu after 8-9 years - without any god ritual/training.....

I dont remember the Zamasu Arc that well - sure there was some more bs there as well.

TOP: Gohan and Piccolo are suddenly much much stronger - so is Android 17. Like not 10x or 100x stronger but like 1 000 000 000x. All he did was park ranging - he didnt even train. And how exactly did Piccolo surpass Mystic Gohan if he couldnt even surpass Perfect Cell?

A SSJ Berserk Kale can somehow hurt a SSJGSSJ Goku - a few episodes later SSJ2 Goku can hold his own against Kale with the Berserk Form mastered.....

Base Kefla is stronger than a SSJG......

Broly surpasses SSJ Vegeta within MINUTES his SSJ transformation is superior to two SSJGSSJ......

Now perhaps I am nitpicking. I admit that both series have their (powerscaling) flaws but for people to claim that Z had a worse or equally bad powerscaling problem as Super - is just ridiculous.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Tue May 18, 2021 7:09 am

Every complaint about power scaling is nitpicking, which is what the point of most criticisms of Z's balancing is from Super enjoyers. The only scale Dragon Ball has ever followed is whatever the writers think is coolest, and pretending that it not fully making sense is new or unique to Super is not only naive, it ignores the fact that power scaling as a concept has always distracted from the series' ability to actually tell good stories using fights.

Anyone who gets mad at Roshi or Krillin being able to hold their own in the Tournament of Power is demanding a worse story by following fake rules that never mattered.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Tue May 18, 2021 7:54 am

Shaddy wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:09 am
Every complaint about power scaling is nitpicking, which is what the point of most criticisms of Z's balancing is from Super enjoyers. The only scale Dragon Ball has ever followed is whatever the writers think is coolest, and pretending that it not fully making sense is new or unique to Super is not only naive, it ignores the fact that power scaling as a concept has always distracted from the series' ability to actually tell good stories using fights.

Anyone who gets mad at Roshi or Krillin being able to hold their own in the Tournament of Power is demanding a worse story by following fake rules that never mattered.
Freeza beating up a weakling for 4 months is horrible writing along with Master Roshi "secret training", Krillin generic gym, Mr Buu training with Mr Satan a weakling and C17 who only beats up human poachers. They shouldn't get huge gains like they did.

In DB and DBZ they did training that no human would ever do. Goku and Krillin literally trained like machines, heck they even surpass machines. We saw how much they struggled in their training and how intense that was. In DB and DBZ to become super human they have to do training to surpass their limit, this however we never get this feeling in DBS.

In DBS just lazy and weak training is enough to get to God Tiers. In ToP we are expected to believe SSB Kamehameha Goku << Berserk Kale and then SS2 Goku >> SS2 Caulifla + Berserk Mastered Kale (who is stronger than before). That is extremely lazy writing.

In DB/DBZ they showed and explained how and why they got strong, in DBS they don't do that.

Edit I forgot Future Trunks was weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but somehow just 1 sparring match with Vegeta he gains huge power. That is weak writing. There is literally the ROSAT, SSG ritual and King Kai to teach Genki Dama.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 18, 2021 7:54 am

I've never understood the fixation that the DB fandom in particular has with power levels, and I never will. I think that the power-scaling in the final part of the Future Trunks arc is nonsensical, regardless that doesn't impact my overall rating of the arc in a meaningful way.

Story, Character Writing, Animation, OST, etc. are all much more important than who can make the biggest explosion between A and B in my opinion.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Yuji » Tue May 18, 2021 9:22 am

Part 1 actually had the most egregious power jumps. People don't notice them because they've been conditioned by battle powers later to think the gaps between characters are tiny, but if you take a look at part 1 in isolation, the characters get ridiculously stronger from arc to arc. For instance: Goku is beaten by Tao, but then comes back stronger to defeat him (Karin states he got several times stronger); in the 22nd TB it's feasible to assume that every major contestant is already stronger than Tao considering their performance, and they all lacked Karin's training (Muten Roshi especially more than doubled his strength despite being an old man past his prime). Piccolo Daimao comes and defeats Goku as an old man using less than 50% of his power. Goku then defeats young Daimao at full strength, only to get battered by Popo who states God is "over a thousand times stronger" than himself. Of course, God in the following arc would be no more than fodder to Goku and Piccolo Jr, but let's not forget how Kuririn and Tenshinhan managed to surpass Piccolo Daimao after 3 years of training.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue May 18, 2021 9:28 am

Yuji wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:22 am
Part 1 actually had the most egregious power jumps. People don't notice them because they've been conditioned by battle powers later to think the gaps between characters are tiny, but if you take a look at part 1 in isolation, the characters get ridiculously stronger from arc to arc. For instance: Goku is beaten by Tao, but then comes back stronger to defeat him (Karin states he got several times stronger); in the 22nd TB it's feasible to assume that every major contestant is already stronger than Tao considering their performance, and they all lacked Karin's training (Muten Roshi especially more than doubled his strength despite being an old man past his prime). Piccolo Daimao comes and defeats Goku as an old man using less than 50% of his power. Goku then defeats young Daimao at full strength, only to get battered by Popo who states God is "over a thousand times stronger" than himself. Of course, God in the following arc would be no more than fodder to Goku and Piccolo Jr, but let's not forget how Kuririn and Tenshinhan managed to surpass Piccolo Daimao after 3 years of training.
Not to mention Gohan and Krillin going from weaker than Nappa even with Piccolo's help to being able to take Saiyan saga Vegeta in the span of a month :lol:
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Tue May 18, 2021 9:56 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:28 am
Yuji wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:22 am
Part 1 actually had the most egregious power jumps. People don't notice them because they've been conditioned by battle powers later to think the gaps between characters are tiny, but if you take a look at part 1 in isolation, the characters get ridiculously stronger from arc to arc. For instance: Goku is beaten by Tao, but then comes back stronger to defeat him (Karin states he got several times stronger); in the 22nd TB it's feasible to assume that every major contestant is already stronger than Tao considering their performance, and they all lacked Karin's training (Muten Roshi especially more than doubled his strength despite being an old man past his prime). Piccolo Daimao comes and defeats Goku as an old man using less than 50% of his power. Goku then defeats young Daimao at full strength, only to get battered by Popo who states God is "over a thousand times stronger" than himself. Of course, God in the following arc would be no more than fodder to Goku and Piccolo Jr, but let's not forget how Kuririn and Tenshinhan managed to surpass Piccolo Daimao after 3 years of training.
Not to mention Gohan and Krillin going from weaker than Nappa even with Piccolo's help to being able to take Saiyan saga Vegeta in the span of a month :lol:

Gohan and Krillin surpassed Nappa by magic being done on then, which is what Elder Guru did. Elder Guru unlocked some of their potential.

Master Roshi would make his student work hard to make high gains, there is nothing lazy about Master Roshi training. Korin made Goku train hard for a long time.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 18, 2021 10:22 am

It may perhaps be worth a reminder that things which you personally don’t like are not inherently examples of “objectively bad writing” (a phrase that is objectively meaningless).

My personal opinions are that Super on the whole is fairly terrible, and that strength consistency is not even remotely a factor in this assessment. (If anything, I find the Freeza training point originally from F a largely brilliant and thematically consistent with prior works bit of story crafting.)
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Tue May 18, 2021 11:00 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:22 am
It may perhaps be worth a reminder that things which you personally don’t like are not inherently examples of “objectively bad writing” (a phrase that is objectively meaningless).

My personal opinions are that Super on the whole is fairly terrible, and that strength consistency is not even remotely a factor in this assessment. (If anything, I find the Freeza training point originally from F a largely brilliant and thematically consistent with prior works bit of story crafting.)
The movie of RoF I also think it was brilliant, it leaves it up to the person to imagine how Freeza got powerful and what kind of training he did.

In the anime Toei tried to give more details, but that extra information actually spoiled it.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hypersayian » Tue May 18, 2021 11:01 am

Shaddy wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:09 am
Anyone who gets mad at Roshi or Krillin being able to hold their own in the Tournament of Power is demanding a worse story by following fake rules that never mattered.
Everyone who is ok with undeserved nonsensical powerups and powerscaling is devaluing the struggles, ordeals and achievements of the characters in Z - makes the story worse and supports bad writing. Remember Vegeta who had to train so hard that he almost lost his sanity to become a SSJ? Lol a Zarbon level grunt gets beaten 4 Months and is advancing faster than Vegeta in half a decade - without any power increasing transformations. If Zarbon, Dodoria or Cui would have trained would they have surpassed Super Vegeta as well - or just Tagoma because it was needed for the story? Could everyone have surpassed Perfect Cell if they just trained a few months? Why then did the Main character Goku need years to do so?

If there is no powerscaling, the training and struggle of the main characters becomes meaningless - everyone is as strong as they need to be - no one knows how the characters relate to each other - thats a bad concept. A story - and powerscaling/jumping - needs consistency.

I doubt people would NOT have cared if Captain America had beaten Thanos after 4 months of training
I doubt people would NOT have cared if Thor had wiped out Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet after getting another powerup

Or look at Star Wars - many people didnt like Rey because she just magically got from below Padawan to high Jedi Knight level within a single week with less than a few hours of "training". People who saw Luke and Anakin struggle to achieve their power were just suspended in disbelief at this development and didnt like the movies/the main character. Because consistency and powerscaling matters for a good story.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hypersayian » Tue May 18, 2021 11:04 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:54 am
Story, Character Writing, Animation, OST, etc. are all much more important
You forgot - consistency. If you have John Wick getting his ass kicked by a "prodigy" child who trained for 4 months after slaughtering through hundreds of capable opponents - no amount of OST, cinematography, writing ect would save the movie

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:08 am

Hypersayian wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 11:04 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:54 am
Story, Character Writing, Animation, OST, etc. are all much more important
You forgot - consistency. If you have John Wick getting his ass kicked by a "prodigy" child who trained for 4 months after slaughtering through hundreds of capable opponents - no amount of OST, cinematography, writing ect would save the movie
And if you've got a terrible story full of retcons, trash and one-dimensional characters with no nuance, bad/annoying voice acting, unbearable ost, horrible animation, etc. Trust me, no amount of consistent power-scaling will make that series worth it.
Twisting into something hideous... It's the physical embodiment of what he feels within. He is obsessed. Fixated on the contradictions of Gods and mortals. If mortals have capacity for wisdom, why do they so often fail? If Gods see their actions as wicked, why do they tolerate and forgive? How can Gods and mortals seem so different yet so alike? What is the point of it all? Zamasu seeks beauty. Yet look at his body, distorted by hatred and rage. I wonder... Is that really the result that he craved? A broken, misshapen God alone in the vacant cosmos? How fulfilled will he be then?

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hypersayian » Tue May 18, 2021 11:13 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 11:08 am
And if you've got a terrible story full of retcons, trash and one-dimensional characters with no nuance, bad/annoying voice acting, unbearable ost, horrible animation, etc. Trust me, no amount of consistent power-scaling will make that series worth it.
True - because both factors are important.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:17 am

I don't think many actually claim this. Z had mostly pretty good powerscaling up till the Majin Boo arc. There were some crazy leaps in powerjumps but they at least made sense in-universe.
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I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Tue May 18, 2021 1:14 pm

Most fans don't care too much about strict power scaling but it's a series that revolves around fighting so even the casual audience hopes it makes some sense in-universe. Series usually have a loose set of rules on what characters are capable of in that universe and fans usually expect some type of explanation if something established changes. This isn't really specific to power scaling and bare minimum writing expectations I guess.

I think it's difficult to argue the power scaling or jumps are worse in DBZ than DBS since that's like claiming DB's of worse than DBZ's. For example, the jump from planet to solar system level in the Cell saga goes far beyond anything before in the series. Same with jumping all the way to universe level in the BoG saga. Someone could say this is what DB has always done but each one is meant to be an even jump than what came before. The power scaling usually gets crazier in an action series the longer it continues. It could be why some shonen series focus more on techniques and strategy to avoid too much of a power creep.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue May 18, 2021 1:54 pm

You can make the argument. From its very first power up Dragon Ball has played it fast and loose with scaling, whereas Super has emphasized that skill and experience can close some power gaps. That's a completely alien concept to Dragon Ball proper where experience doesn't mean anything.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue May 18, 2021 2:22 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:54 pm
You can make the argument. From its very first power up Dragon Ball has played it fast and loose with scaling, whereas Super has emphasized that skill and experience can close some power gaps. That's a completely alien concept to Dragon Ball proper where experience doesn't mean anything.
Not entirely sure what you are referring to when you say DBZ disregards experience in power-scaling, or that DBS emphasized it more...
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Tue May 18, 2021 2:28 pm

super michael wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:54 am
Freeza beating up a weakling for 4 months is horrible writing along with Master Roshi "secret training", Krillin generic gym, Mr Buu training with Mr Satan a weakling and C17 who only beats up human poachers. They shouldn't get huge gains like they did.

In DB and DBZ they did training that no human would ever do. Goku and Krillin literally trained like machines, heck they even surpass machines. We saw how much they struggled in their training and how intense that was. In DB and DBZ to become super human they have to do training to surpass their limit, this however we never get this feeling in DBS.

In DBS just lazy and weak training is enough to get to God Tiers. In ToP we are expected to believe SSB Kamehameha Goku << Berserk Kale and then SS2 Goku >> SS2 Caulifla + Berserk Mastered Kale (who is stronger than before). That is extremely lazy writing.

In DB/DBZ they showed and explained how and why they got strong, in DBS they don't do that.

Edit I forgot Future Trunks was weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but somehow just 1 sparring match with Vegeta he gains huge power. That is weak writing. There is literally the ROSAT, SSG ritual and King Kai to teach Genki Dama.
No, actually, it doesn't matter. We just saw a bunch of Z inconsistencies in the main post. None of them matter. It never mattered. Your examples are all pointless fodder only for a media lens that demands every tiny little thing be over explained so it can be crammed into a wiki article or some infographic, and there is nothing more against the spirit of Dragon Ball than rigidity and order.
Hypersayian wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 11:01 am
Everyone who is ok with undeserved nonsensical powerups and powerscaling is devaluing the struggles, ordeals and achievements of the characters in Z - makes the story worse and supports bad writing. Remember Vegeta who had to train so hard that he almost lost his sanity to become a SSJ? Lol a Zarbon level grunt gets beaten 4 Months and is advancing faster than Vegeta in half a decade - without any power increasing transformations. If Zarbon, Dodoria or Cui would have trained would they have surpassed Super Vegeta as well - or just Tagoma because it was needed for the story? Could everyone have surpassed Perfect Cell if they just trained a few months? Why then did the Main character Goku need years to do so?

If there is no powerscaling, the training and struggle of the main characters becomes meaningless - everyone is as strong as they need to be - no one knows how the characters relate to each other - thats a bad concept. A story - and powerscaling/jumping - needs consistency.
Actually, what devalues a character's work is judging anything that doesn't fit into some random hierarchy of power you made up as "innately bad" and ignoring what the story actually being presented to you is. You're basically complaining that it doesn't fit into your headcanon, it has nothing to do with what is actually true in the series and never has.

Why are characters only allowed to be strong or relevant when random online bros say they are?
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue May 18, 2021 2:34 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:22 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 1:54 pm
You can make the argument. From its very first power up Dragon Ball has played it fast and loose with scaling, whereas Super has emphasized that skill and experience can close some power gaps. That's a completely alien concept to Dragon Ball proper where experience doesn't mean anything.
Not entirely sure what you are referring to when you say DBZ disregards experience in power-scaling, or that DBS emphasized it more...
It goes all the way back to Roshi's first lessons to Goku and Krillin. He outright tells them the Turtle School is all about physical conditioning and we then go on to see them humiliate fighter after fighter just by being stronger than them. That's the most common through line in all of Dragon Ball, in fact. Impressive techniques and skills are consistently shown to be useless.

DBS, through a handful of moments with Krillin and Roshi try to bring techniques and ingenuity back into the equation. I'm not saying they did a good job, btw. I hated the Tournament of Power. But the attempt was clearly there.
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super michael
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Tue May 18, 2021 2:34 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:28 pm
super michael wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:54 am
Freeza beating up a weakling for 4 months is horrible writing along with Master Roshi "secret training", Krillin generic gym, Mr Buu training with Mr Satan a weakling and C17 who only beats up human poachers. They shouldn't get huge gains like they did.

In DB and DBZ they did training that no human would ever do. Goku and Krillin literally trained like machines, heck they even surpass machines. We saw how much they struggled in their training and how intense that was. In DB and DBZ to become super human they have to do training to surpass their limit, this however we never get this feeling in DBS.

In DBS just lazy and weak training is enough to get to God Tiers. In ToP we are expected to believe SSB Kamehameha Goku << Berserk Kale and then SS2 Goku >> SS2 Caulifla + Berserk Mastered Kale (who is stronger than before). That is extremely lazy writing.

In DB/DBZ they showed and explained how and why they got strong, in DBS they don't do that.

Edit I forgot Future Trunks was weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but somehow just 1 sparring match with Vegeta he gains huge power. That is weak writing. There is literally the ROSAT, SSG ritual and King Kai to teach Genki Dama.
No, actually, it doesn't matter. We just saw a bunch of Z inconsistencies in the main post. None of them matter. It never mattered. Your examples are all pointless fodder only for a media lens that demands every tiny little thing be over explained so it can be crammed into a wiki article or some infographic, and there is nothing more against the spirit of Dragon Ball than rigidity and order.
Hypersayian wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 11:01 am
Everyone who is ok with undeserved nonsensical powerups and powerscaling is devaluing the struggles, ordeals and achievements of the characters in Z - makes the story worse and supports bad writing. Remember Vegeta who had to train so hard that he almost lost his sanity to become a SSJ? Lol a Zarbon level grunt gets beaten 4 Months and is advancing faster than Vegeta in half a decade - without any power increasing transformations. If Zarbon, Dodoria or Cui would have trained would they have surpassed Super Vegeta as well - or just Tagoma because it was needed for the story? Could everyone have surpassed Perfect Cell if they just trained a few months? Why then did the Main character Goku need years to do so?

If there is no powerscaling, the training and struggle of the main characters becomes meaningless - everyone is as strong as they need to be - no one knows how the characters relate to each other - thats a bad concept. A story - and powerscaling/jumping - needs consistency.
Actually, what devalues a character's work is judging anything that doesn't fit into some random hierarchy of power you made up as "innately bad" and ignoring what the story actually being presented to you is. You're basically complaining that it doesn't fit into your headcanon, it has nothing to do with what is actually true in the series and never has.

Why are characters only allowed to be strong or relevant when random online bros say they are?

We know in DB/DBZ the Z fighters did hard training, there is no headcanon about that. In DBS only Goku and Vegeta does hard training, while everyone is lazy, however the lazy training makes huge gains.

In DB/DBZ to make huge gain required hard training.

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