Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Kakacarrottop » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:16 pm

Thanos wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:45 pm
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am
"these are two entirely different fanbases that might as well not even bother interacting with each other anymore."

...that REALLY gets to the heart of it. I've felt this way (and have even said as much myself) for literally decades now. We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.

What we've had here for decades now are two completely different fanbases for two totally different, disparate works that are totally incompatible with one another and shouldn't even be probably interacting in the same space with one another on the regular: because despite ostensibly featuring the same characters and story, there's so much that's been changed at the foundational level of the English version that it ultimately leaves so very little in the way of substantive common ground between both fanbases for both versions.
I have no interest in adding to the hostility or coming across like I don't want them here, but sometimes I wonder why FUNi fans congregate here at all. I think it's cool that everyone is welcome and that's perfect, but... you have two rather large Dragon Ball Reddit communities and all of YouTube which lean heavily on the FUNi dub stuff, and Kanzenshuu to me traditionally was the one place where people weren't called a "weeb" for simply referring to characters by the names given to them by their creator. It's not uncommon at all to see argument and disagreements here based on mistranslations.

if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until fairly recently that many FUNi purists decided to join Kanzenshuu because it feels like it's only in recent years that many Japanese vs. FUNi debates took place in threads here, by and large. Back in the Daizenshuu days, it feels like the community was quite simpatico in their preference for the Japanese version, and words like "Hercule" were shunned and even censored at one point. I do still find it peculiar seeing all the "Faulconer redub" threads in the fan forum. Personally, if I were a FUNi fan, I don't know if I'd bother coming here at all. I see them get piled on for voicing their preferences (something I'm guilty of and I'm still working on trying to be nicer about it, in earnest), and one has to feel bad for them. Again, it's awesome that they're here but there seems to be an insurmountable miscommunication based on all of the nuanced differences between the two versions.
I feel that on Youtube and reddit the majority are far less knowledgeable about the English side of Dragon Ball. Here Funimation's Z dub is just seen as one of many different English DB dubs, whereas on Youtube and reddit it's "the dub", since so many have been bombarded with releases and video games featuring Funi actors or BF music.

On this website it's common knowledge that BF didn't actually do most of the music for Funi's Z dub, whereas it would be news to someone on Youtube.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:26 pm

Thanos wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:45 pm
if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until fairly recently that many FUNi purists decided to join Kanzenshuu because it feels like it's only in recent years that many Japanese vs. FUNi debates took place in threads here, by and large. Back in the Daizenshuu days, it feels like the community was quite simpatico in their preference for the Japanese version, and words like "Hercule" were shunned and even censored at one point.
Nah, this isn't true at all. FUNi fans started piling into this forum going all the way back to around I wanna say 2006/2007-ish? Whenever it was we started getting early word about Evolution I think.

For all the reputation this place has of being "hardcore Japanese/subtitled-only", that largely only persists because of the people who run this website, and the fact that it has a high concentration of Japanese/sub fans in general. But dub fans have flowed into here in large numbers going back more than 15 years now. The actual time span when this forum really was primarily comprised of Japanese/sub fans and had minimal dub fan participation was incredibly short-lived: maybe the first year or two of the forum's existence back in 2004 and 2005?

By '06 or '07 though, there were beyond plenty of dub fans that started joining in droves, and the same tired arguments resumed almost immediately therein.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:36 pm

How about the dedicated DB fans(who take the time to learn everything about the manga, anime, guides and supplementary material) against the Funi dub fans who only ever watched the dub and treat it as being the "official" version of the series, regurgitating all the dubisms as though it's gospel and thinking that Sean Schemmel's Goku is superior to Masako Nozawa's???
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:47 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:36 pm
How about the dedicated DB fans(who take the time to learn everything about the manga, anime, guides and supplementary material) against the Funi dub fans who only ever watched the dub and treat it as being the "official" version of the series, regurgitating all the dubisms as though it's gospel and thinking that Sean Schemmel's Goku is superior to Masako Nozawa's???
While I don't mind if fans prefer Schemmel's performance to Nowaza's just as a matter of taste, it is beyond obnoxious how Funi dub fans go out of their way to discredit Nowaza's performance because "Goku sounds like a screechy old lady." That argument reeks of dudebro. It took me some years to fully appreciate and even revere Nowaza; now I find myself often defaulting to Nowaza's delivery in key moments I've watched, like with Kamehamehas and such. Especially the screams and whatnot in the fight against Frieza on Namek.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:48 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:36 pm
How about the dedicated DB fans(who take the time to learn everything about the manga, anime, guides and supplementary material) against the Funi dub fans who only ever watched the dub and treat it as being the "official" version of the series, regurgitating all the dubisms as though it's gospel and thinking that Sean Schemmel's Goku is superior to Masako Nozawa's???
As long as they don’t act like jerks...
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:17 pm

Let’s please not use this thread as an opportunity to make, “Hey, you know THOSE kinds of fans? Fucking BOZOS, amirite?” kind of posts.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:51 pm

Ok.

How about DB fans against DB fans and how some DB fans like to act like they out-DB fans DB fans and think they're the real DB fans?
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:41 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:51 pm
Ok.

How about DB fans against DB fans and how some DB fans like to act like they out-DB fans DB fans and think they're the real DB fans?
This is not what the thread creator is asking.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Skar » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:48 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 am
Those 5 GT fans are putting up a good fight.
GT characters still appear in video games and merchandise. Toei and Bandai must be the nicest companies in the world to lose money for years just to cater to such a small group of fans.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Duo » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:42 am

Well, so far the consensus seems to be dub vs sub as the biggest cause of in-fighting. Considering the circumstances with Dragon Ball, I am inclined to agree. In terms of popularity of the franchise and the sheer level of difference between the two versions, it's quite a pickle at times. I simply have no interest in communicating with fans of the FUNi version at this point.

I would add, however, I'm starting to feel a rift with Generation DBS. There have been "new generations" of fans before, but the last few years have created a truly new monster in comparison.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Trouser » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:02 am

Kakacarrottop wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:06 am
Manga fans vs anime fans (Unlike the above things, this isn't just exclusive to Dragon Ball)
I don't care about dub vs sub, because I don't like Funimation dubbing (don't get me wrong, I'm always opened to new things and I'd love for every country to have it's own DB dub, but Funimation sounds to me like screaming bodybuilders on steroids during heavylifting training) and I'm avoiding everything related to it.

As for the manga vs anime fans... I think it's only with Super. We have few versions of the same story (imo very stupid decision made by higher ups or whatever). Manga is more "logical" (as if logic can be paired with Dragon Ball...) than anime, but it's just still images. Anime is flashy, has music, voice actors, etc. Some prefer manga, some anime. But yes, this matter divides the fandom.
Kakacarrottop wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:06 am
And finally, since the mid-2010s we have DBS fans vs GT fans, which is very prominent on other websites that discuss Dragon Ball, not just Youtube. I'd never heard anyone being called a "GT fanboy" before 2015, but now it's incessantly used whenever someone criticizes Super or claims that GT is canon.
GT wasn't perfect, it's not the best continuity we could get, but so is Super. Most GT haters are the ones that didn't even watch GT properly (they hate it just because... or they are flat minded and don't have their own opinion and are easily influenced by others).
But here's something interesting... After Super and how bad it was made, some people who didn't like GT (the ones who actually did watch it) started saying that "it's better than Super" or "it's not that bad compared to Super".
To me, GT and Super are both shite continuations (both have pros and cons), but at the end of the day, I prefer GT.

It's for the best to ignore threads like that. There's nothing good in them, just two teams of blind haters throwing insults at each other (GT vs Super, manga vs anime). It's very hard for normal conversation in DB fandom. This fandom is toxic. Kanzenshuu is the last bastion, but haters are here too.
Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 am
Those 5 GT fans are putting up a good fight.
Like someone said before, weak bait.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:56 am

it's not weak bait if i got 3 catches 8), I'm just joking anyway, but i thing the worst in-fighting is modern vs classic Dragon Ball fans.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:37 am

These ones are more minor and personal to me than the already mentioned conflicts, but some past discussions about them have gotten pretty heated, at least from my perspective:

Just about anything relating to the Buu arc: Is it an irredeemable mess or a fun rollercoaster ride where anything can happen? Is Buu a great villain or is he just "a lame retread of Cell?" Should Goku have stayed dead? Etc.

Anything involving Gohan's role in the series: Should he have become the main character or not? Was there anything left to do with his character when we got to the Buu arc or not? Was Toriyama right to switch gears when he decided Gohan wasn't working as the main character or not? Was the story ruined because he didn't become the main character? Etc.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by coola » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:57 am

Toriyama involvement in modern Dragon Ball

"Super is better or more canon than GT, because Toriyama was involved" vs "Toriyama is like George Lucas, new stuff he made is not only bad, it also retcons what happened in original series"
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by NitroEX » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:56 am

From what I could tell, the anti-sub crowd seemed to die down somewhat after Super arrived as it was the only way to consume new content for a long time. Even dub purists seemed to hold their noses and get used to it for once which was one of the few positive things I can say of that series. To be honest though, I haven't bothered paying too close attention to that debate in years. I personally grew tired of the shallow arguments from either side as they typically amounted to one of two camps: The "all dubs bad" camp or the "Japanese voices suck" camp. Both of which don't really scratch the surface of any insightful or productive discussion and I just find it really uninteresting.

The dub vs dub arguments have typically been more frustrating in my experience but that stems from years of the water being muddied with wrongful speculation or missing information leading to companies and people being painted a certain way. It's also frustrating having to correct casual fans on the misinformation they've been fed or taken in through osmosis. Unlike with the Japanese vs English arguments, the lines aren't so clearly defined and the rightful targets were often difficult to identify in the past. Nowadays it's easier to point out companies, producers or directors who may have caused a dub to be good or bad but in the past, people had a tendency to boil it down to "Funi good, everything else bad!" which becomes more laughable as time goes on. But ever since Kai and Super introduced the anime to a younger audience the classic dub arguments have been diluted or forgotten to the point where they don't come up much, and if they do it's usually from a superficial viewpoint. It's either that or Funi fans fighting amongst themselves about Z vs Kai which isn't that interesting to me.

Aside from those, I think the whole debate around Super was definitely the largest and worst I've seen online, but I don't personally recall much of it involving GT except for brief mentions here and there. I'm more broadly thinking about DBS critics vs defenders. Many DB fans just didn't believe it was living up to its namesake, which I tended to agree with, whilst others considered it blasphemy to criticise the brand. It was shortly after that I checked out of the show because it became too frustrating to continue to talk about, let alone watch. You had to walk on eggshells and not say anything too negative about it else you be targeted. I think a lot were simply venting their frustrations because they wanted it to improve but that was taken the wrong way by people who were content with what they were being given.

An honourable mention would be the discussion surrounding DB live-action movie adaptations. It's not high on the list by any means but I often find it's a discussion that ends up being one that's not worth participating in. I just think a lot of people seem to lack imagination for these kinds of hypothetical creative discussions and become irrationally upset when they're basically told they won't get their Harry Potter 8 movie deal. There's simply no room for compromise to a lot of fans and that quickly leads to toxic debates.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:17 am

Social or politically inclined topics like Roshi's antics, or if Toriyama is racist or hates women because of these or that character. Those usually end up in non-amicable discussions followed by people being rightfully banned. Those involve real life situations and experiences, so they can easily stop being about DB and be about real issues. It serves to weed out far-right-mentality members who you usually don't want nothing to do with.

Lesser fights happen over DBS and DBGT, or manga and anime. These are more about personal tastes, and people getting mad over somebody criticizing theirs. Powerscaling debates also can get really heated, they stem off people telling others how wrong their interpretation is in a rude manner.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:51 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:37 am
These ones are more minor and personal to me than the already mentioned conflicts, but some past discussions about them have gotten pretty heated, at least from my perspective:

Just about anything relating to the Buu arc: Is it an irredeemable mess or a fun rollercoaster ride where anything can happen? Is Buu a great villain or is he just "a lame retread of Cell?" Should Goku have stayed dead? Etc.

Anything involving Gohan's role in the series: Should he have become the main character or not? Was there anything left to do with his character when we got to the Buu arc or not? Was Toriyama right to switch gears when he decided Gohan wasn't working as the main character or not? Was the story ruined because he didn't become the main character? Etc.
I've seen some pretty heated debates about the Cell vs. Buu sagas. I think both represent a downturn in Toriyama's storytelling, but I still have a love for both. The Buu saga was my entry into Dragon Ball fandom, so I'm a bit biased, but I love that feeling of "anything can happen because this is so bonkers." Sure that doesn't make up for storytelling lapses, but it's still a fun saga. I've also grown to love the concept of Fusion and SSJ3. And I've come to appreciate Goku (and technically everyone together) getting the W over Kid Buu in the end. I don't know that I'd say I "prefer" the Buu saga, but in some ways I think I do. Buu's powers and physiology make for some fun fights. Plus the anime introduced that awesome "We Gotta Power" opening. I will say that some of the "hate" for the Buu saga isn't as pronounced in light of Dragon Ball Super; akin to GT, some fans have taken to praise it more often since they feel we now have something worse.

With Gohan, my thoughts have completely changed. He's my favorite character along with Piccolo, and now the Great Saiyaman-era version of him is my favorite next to Namek saga and over the Cell saga version. I like seeing who he actually is as a person, even if he isn't as strong. He's incredibly likable, goofy, and is still super powerful while having aspirations other than fighting. I'm not crazy about how he got the Ultimate Gohan power-up (it was a gag, but still), and I don't think Ultimate Gohan was a "return to form" for him any more. Sure, he was stronger, and it was nice seeing him appear more confident, but his brain didn't get any of that power-up so it wasn't for much. I'm fine with him not being the main character for the entire saga, as Dragon Ball began with Goku after all, but I loved the stretch of episodes where he was.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:07 pm

Thanos wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:45 pm

I have no interest in adding to the hostility or coming across like I don't want them here, but sometimes I wonder why FUNi fans congregate here at all. I think it's cool that everyone is welcome and that's perfect, but... you have two rather large Dragon Ball Reddit communities and all of YouTube which lean heavily on the FUNi dub stuff, and Kanzenshuu to me traditionally was the one place where people weren't called a "weeb" for simply referring to characters by the names given to them by their creator. It's not uncommon at all to see argument and disagreements here based on mistranslations.

As a dub fan who can, if need be, watch the series with subtitles, I come to this site because it's probably the best place online to talk about Dragonball with other fans. All the info here is accurate, and if someone says something off, someone else will correct them.

Although reading this topic right as I got to Mike's post, it had me wondering "Are dub fans really the a-hole?" Then I was reminded about what everyone else used to say about how users of this forum were elitist know-it-alls. Granted, I can't say I've encountered any dub fan like the ones mentioned. Myself, I wouldn't get caught up in any dub vs sub conversations beyond ones that clarify the changes made. I recognize that there were several changes to the tone and characterizations to gain traction in the US after many failed attempts, even though it seems that more faithful versions did well in other parts of the world.

I've had the fortune of sticking with the franchise over the decades and have seen the Funi version "improve". But like someone else said, their not going to ever give a sub fan exactly what they want. Not as long as their version is still as popular and profitable as it is.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:40 pm

Thanos wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:45 pm


I have no interest in adding to the hostility or coming across like I don't want them here, but sometimes I wonder why FUNi fans congregate here at all. I think it's cool that everyone is welcome and that's perfect, but... you have two rather large Dragon Ball Reddit communities and all of YouTube which lean heavily on the FUNi dub stuff, and Kanzenshuu to me traditionally was the one place where people weren't called a "weeb" for simply referring to characters by the names given to them by their creator. It's not uncommon at all to see argument and disagreements here based on mistranslations.s.
I think it has a lot to do with Kanzenshuu being the only Dragon Ball forum where 99 percent of the thread topics aren’t “Power Levels List” and “Who could Beat Who in a Fight based on these circumstances “

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by 90sDBZ » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:43 pm

I'd actually say the vast majority of DB fans aren't toxic at all, and just want to share their love of the series. It's just a loud minority on the internet that gives everyone else a bad name. If you look at DB conventions there's nothing but positivity, regardless which version those people prefer.

I don't think anything in particular causes this in-fighting. Toxic people will simply always find an excuse to start trouble.

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