Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:04 pm

Here is a an oldie but GOODIE! EUROPEAN SPANISH DUB VS LATIN AMERICAN SPANISH DUB.
Marz wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm
"Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:08 pm

English vs. Japanese still causes great collateral damage to this day.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by BWri » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:15 pm

I'd like to add something that I may have very well imagined over the years, but something I perceived to be there, and that is the divide between what I like to call DB bros and the DB elites. The nomenclature is horrible, I know, but I tend to enjoy and loathe both camps for different reasons.

The DB bros are typically the power scalers whose problems with the narrative typically boil down to wonky or erroneous scaling while the DB elites tend to be nit-picky about character based minutia that isn't necessarily related to power levels and tend to turn their noses up at power level talk.

DB bros also stereotypically include the "SSJ2 Gohan was best Gohan because badass" crowd while the DB elite crowd don't mind a weaker domesticated Gohan.

The defining difference between the two camps seems to be that one values a character because of their stats and combat prowess while the other values the character due to characterization, character arcs, and appeal. The DB bros would be indifferent to someone like Yamcha for instance due to his low power level and history of losses while Yamcha would be remembered more favorably by the DB elites due to his early interactions with Goku and Bulma.

I think most fans possess traits of both camps in them, I know I do, but when the more extreme elements of both sides interact you seem to get this Raging Caveman vs Haughty Snob dynamic going on which entertains me to no end.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:50 am

I could safely say it is the incosistency in the plot and more specifically the age differences for the characters Pan and Bra in Dragon Ball GT compared to Dragon Ball Super.

Another one would be Vegeta's redemption.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:08 am

BWri wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:15 pm
I'd like to add something that I may have very well imagined over the years, but something I perceived to be there, and that is the divide between what I like to call DB bros and the DB elites. The nomenclature is horrible, I know, but I tend to enjoy and loathe both camps for different reasons.

The DB bros are typically the power scalers whose problems with the narrative typically boil down to wonky or erroneous scaling while the DB elites tend to be nit-picky about character based minutia that isn't necessarily related to power levels and tend to turn their noses up at power level talk.

DB bros also stereotypically include the "SSJ2 Gohan was best Gohan because badass" crowd while the DB elite crowd don't mind a weaker domesticated Gohan.

The defining difference between the two camps seems to be that one values a character because of their stats and combat prowess while the other values the character due to characterization, character arcs, and appeal. The DB bros would be indifferent to someone like Yamcha for instance due to his low power level and history of losses while Yamcha would be remembered more favorably by the DB elites due to his early interactions with Goku and Bulma.

I think most fans possess traits of both camps in them, I know I do, but when the more extreme elements of both sides interact you seem to get this Raging Caveman vs Haughty Snob dynamic going on which entertains me to no end.
I used to be firmly on the side of looking down at power level bros but over the past 2 or 3 years I've grown to despise the "hipster fans" who are all about slice of life and turn down their nose at anything action oriented. It's like they miss the whole point of DB even harder than the power level fanatics.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:11 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:08 am
I used to be firmly on the side of looking down at power level bros but over the past 2 or 3 years I've grown to despise the "hipster fans" who are all about slice of life and turn down their nose at anything action oriented. It's like they miss the whole point of DB even harder than the power level fanatics.
Who the hell even thinks like that? I doubt they make up a larger number than the Power level fanatics.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by BWri » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:11 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:08 am
I used to be firmly on the side of looking down at power level bros but over the past 2 or 3 years I've grown to despise the "hipster fans" who are all about slice of life and turn down their nose at anything action oriented.
Right! Hipster fans is a great way of classifying them. I've gone through many phases in my DB fandom, so I can see most sides of the spectrum, but some just take things too far.
It's like they miss the whole point of DB even harder than the power level fanatics.
Yeah, both camps dive so hard into one aspect of the series that they dismiss or are indifferent to its other aspects. That's fine, but let's not deride others for the parts of the series that they enjoy.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:08 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am
We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.
And comments like this are why the arguing persists to this day.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:41 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:08 am
]
I used to be firmly on the side of looking down at power level bros but over the past 2 or 3 years I've grown to despise the "hipster fans" who are all about slice of life and turn down their nose at anything action oriented. It's like they miss the whole point of DB even harder than the power level fanatics.
I like to think I'm a perfect balance of these two lol, although in the past I may have been guilty of coming off "snobby" due to disliking the over-reliance on power levels. The power levels talk can be a bit much for me, but if that's what someone loves about the series, who am I to tell them they shouldn't? And is is undoubtedly a part of the series now. I favor character dynamics, but I also love the action and suspense. Even when the action becomes more ki blast oriented I enjoy it. Whenever fans approach anything from a superiority angle, whichever "side" they're on, that leads to problems.

As for the talk of English dub vs sub, one thing I'd encourage sub fans to consider is that some dub fans could eventually come around to the sub. Yet they may still love the dub for nostalgic purposes and that Bruce Faulconer aesthetic. Of course, you'd want people to check out the sub, but at the end of the day it's their prerogative. I'm speaking as someone who was brought to Dragon Ball through the dub and still has affection for if, even though I now prefer the sub of the original series (oh, and I'm a Kai fan).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:06 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:08 pm
And comments like this are why the arguing persists to this day.
Ignoring the reality of the situation doesn't help anything. What's he supposed to do? Not acknowledge the differences between versions? Act like the differences don't affect anything when they very much do for a not insignificant amount of people?

I'm not trying to contribute to this issue considering the point of the thread, but that statement comes off as needlessly hostile to someone that's just stating a fact.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:50 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:06 pm
Ignoring the reality of the situation doesn't help anything. What's he supposed to do? Not acknowledge the differences between versions? Act like the differences don't affect anything when they very much do for a not insignificant amount of people?

I'm not trying to contribute to this issue considering the point of the thread, but that statement comes off as needlessly hostile to someone that's just stating a fact.
This is where I fall with it, too. If those holding onto that version of the series love it that much, love all its changes, appreciate its changes, only want to watch it with those changes... I wish them the best. I really do. I'm happy that they're happy.

But they've also made it abundantly clear -- boy howdy do they want you to know -- that they prefer the changed version.

So OK then. I'm agreeing with them. They like a changed version. It's not the same as what I'm watching. It's fundamentally different. Correct. They're right. In this entirely hypothetical situation where we're having this conversation, I'm just restating back at them that, yes, we like two different things.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too: you can't be talking about the exact same thing with us having the exact same experiences and exact same interpretations from the exact same context and there's totally no "divide" whatsoever... if your thing is different and you're telling me your thing is different.

Like, I'm not even angry about it, or trying to push some agenda here, or even trying to convince you to watch my thing anymore. We're just agreeing on a fundamental truth, but one or both parties are unwilling to acknowledge that.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:48 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:08 pm
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am
We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.
And comments like this are why the arguing persists to this day.
Part of me wants to say they’re not THAT fundamentally different from each other and at the end of the day you’re still watching a goofy martial arts series but then

You have American Ball Z fans clinging to Goku’s heroic Christ like speeches that are completely out of place , getting mad when characters like Freeza and Gohan are portrayed more accurately by new actors, wanting a score that is in complete defiance of what Dragon Ball Z is, etc etc. And the hyperfocus on power levels. Something that only mattered in the Japanese version for like two arcs.

So I dunno


And to be clear I’m not knocking people who are touched by Goku’s platitudes or inspired by Team Mike Smith and Friends score or think Freeza should sound like a lizard woman instead of a condescending hoiti toiti businessman, just that they do like something different than what originally aired in Japan from 1989-1996

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:35 pm

But y'all don't think that saying things like " Nah your not a DB fan, you watched a different show" comes off a wee bit condescending? When exactly are statements like that even appropriate? Is it when you're in a typing bloodbath with some dude on Youtube or just in general whenever someone brings up how they enjoyed watching it on Toonami? Because I'm sure there're more people in our lives who are more like the latter.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:40 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:35 pm
But y'all don't think that saying things like " Nah your not a DB fan, you watched a different show" comes off a wee bit condescending? When exactly are statements like that even appropriate? Is it when you're in a typing bloodbath with some dude on Youtube or just in general whenever someone brings up how they enjoyed watching it on Toonami? Because I'm sure there're more people in our lives who are more like the latter.
But literally nobody said “You’re not a Dragon Ball fan.” You’re trying to make it sound like some gatekeeping/true fan thing when it’s just acknowledging the Japanese version and the FUNimation version are different.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:54 pm

Yeah, basically. I'm not going into YouTube comments (except I guess in rare occasion our our podcast YouTube comments?). I don't have conversations with people outside of: (1) this forum, (2) /r/dbz/ and /r/dragonball/, and (3) conventions. That's it. That's all. I'm not anywhere else.

I'm not even really HAVING this conversation with this hypothetical person. That's why I called it out as hypothetical. I don't put myself into positions where I'm doing this anymore. I don't go out of my way to "convert" people. I'm not interested in that. I don't have the time or energy for that like I did in 2000. Do your thing. Watch what you watch.

It's the other way. It's when people come at me that I'm proposing these arguments/points.

(You are never going to see me telling someone they're not a Dragon Ball fan, not a real fan, not a true fan, whatever. That's not happening. It's just not.)

I understand and acknowledge your point, though, about that seeming... almost like a distinction without a difference, though?

But again, I, me, personally, VegettoEX, Mike, the guy writing this post right here, am not going out of my way into dub fan conversations to tell people their thing is different. These days it's only the opposite. And I'm agreeing with them that their thing is, yes, indeed, different.

I dunno. Feel like I lost the point here. Probably a conversation worthy of another/separate thread, if interested? I dunno how much I'm really interested, though. That's the hard part about this one in particular -- the fire isn't there for me. I just want to like the thing I like, work on the thing I like, and share that stuff.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:09 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:40 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:35 pm
But y'all don't think that saying things like " Nah your not a DB fan, you watched a different show" comes off a wee bit condescending? When exactly are statements like that even appropriate? Is it when you're in a typing bloodbath with some dude on Youtube or just in general whenever someone brings up how they enjoyed watching it on Toonami? Because I'm sure there're more people in our lives who are more like the latter.
But literally nobody said “You’re not a Dragon Ball fan.” You’re trying to make it sound like some gatekeeping/true fan thing when it’s just acknowledging the Japanese version and the FUNimation version are different.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am
We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.
That's exactly what it sounds like though.

There was a user on this forum some years ago named PenguinTruth who used to shout the same thing.

Granted I'm not saying there's no merit to the claim ( btw I enjoyed both growing up and yes I prefer the modern dubs with a more faithful script or just the original JP broadcasting overall) but what I AM saying is that I cant imagine walking into a break room at work and I overhear some dudes listening to the SS3 Goku theme or Cell's theme while they reminisce over the show, I walk up to them and go "Oh Naw, that's not the real DBZ, y'all like that goofy English shit, The Kikuchi score is far superior and fits the tone of the series more". Even though that's true, it also absolutely REEKS of poindexter.. and no one likes a poindexter.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:14 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:09 pm
but what I AM saying is that I cant imagine walking into a break room at work and I overhear some dudes listening to the SS3 Goku theme or Cell's theme while they reminisce over the show, I walk up to them and go "Oh Naw, that's not the real DBZ, y'all like that goofy English shit, The Kikuchi score is far superior and fits the tone of the series more". Even though that's true, it also absolutely REEKS of poindexter.. and no one likes a poindexter.
OK, but who's this person, and were they rightfully completely ostracized? Because that's insane behavior and, you're right, no-one should do that.

But at the same time, don't confuse that for a conversation about that stuff between Dragon Ball fans on... let's say a multi-decade-existing forum about that series, ya' know? :lol:
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:16 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:09 pm
I cant imagine walking into a break room at work and I overhear some dudes listening to the SS3 Goku theme or Cell's theme while they reminisce over the show, I walk up to them and go "Oh Naw, that's not the real DBZ, y'all like that goofy English shit, The Kikuchi score is far superior and fits the tone of the series more". Even though that's true, it also absolutely REEKS of poindexter.. and no one likes a poindexter.
As a sub fan, I wouldn't even bother joining that discussion since they're talking about music from a replacement score that I never connected with (plus I'm an introvert that isn't looking to start trouble with people). If one of them somehow found out that I'm a Dragon Ball fan, I'd just politely state that I don't watch the dub and explain why if they asked about it: "It changed the tone and characterizations too much for my taste." At that point, they'd be the assholes if they reacted hostilely to that.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:35 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:09 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:40 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:35 pm
But y'all don't think that saying things like " Nah your not a DB fan, you watched a different show" comes off a wee bit condescending? When exactly are statements like that even appropriate? Is it when you're in a typing bloodbath with some dude on Youtube or just in general whenever someone brings up how they enjoyed watching it on Toonami? Because I'm sure there're more people in our lives who are more like the latter.
But literally nobody said “You’re not a Dragon Ball fan.” You’re trying to make it sound like some gatekeeping/true fan thing when it’s just acknowledging the Japanese version and the FUNimation version are different.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am
We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.
That's exactly what it sounds like though.

There was a user on this forum some years ago named PenguinTruth who used to shout the same thing.

Granted I'm not saying there's no merit to the claim ( btw I enjoyed both growing up and yes I prefer the modern dubs with a more faithful script or just the original JP broadcasting overall) but what I AM saying is that I cant imagine walking into a break room at work and I overhear some dudes listening to the SS3 Goku theme or Cell's theme while they reminisce over the show, I walk up to them and go "Oh Naw, that's not the real DBZ, y'all like that goofy English shit, The Kikuchi score is far superior and fits the tone of the series more". Even though that's true, it also absolutely REEKS of poindexter.. and no one likes a poindexter.
But whomst is doing this? Because I can’t imagine that happening in real life either because I don’t know anyone who acts like that. Real life interactions and online interactions function differently. I rarely talk about Dragon Ball in my day to day life and when I do it’s usually surface level stuff like a supervisor at an old job of mine having some Dragon Ball Funko Pops and us talking about that for a bit. I think the closest I got into an irl argument that had any relation to Dragon Ball was me trying to explain to a co-worker that Emmy Rossum a great actress if he watched Shameless and her performance in Dragon Ball Evolution isn’t indicative of anything and his insistence that a good actor can make any role good and I basically let it go after that.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:51 pm

Its all hypotheticals at the end of the day and yeah most real life conversations about DB are usually extremely surface level "Vegeta's cool, I hate Freeza blah blah blah" that's fine. My little scenario was just a description of the energy I get when I read the "Its not the same show" kind of comments which comes off snobbish, at least to me, hence why I asked when do such statements become useful to a conversation which VegettoEX painted the picture for me. That picture being for example whenever a hardcore Falconer fan comes to a place like this solely to lambast Kikuchi's "weird karate music" and Goku's "old lady voice".
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