Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 am

LostTimeLord wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:52 am

So you end up with moments where a joke happens during an action scene and it feels like the music is cutting itself off with how quickly it switches back and forth between 'action' and 'comedy' modes. And you get voices like Usopp's, which totally exaggerates his comedic persona at the expense of any range when sincere moments actually show up. One Piece was already known for its tone shifts, but the 4Kids version pushes everything up to eleven and then shifts the tone around even more. Funi, however, seemed to understand the appeal of their DBZ and kept it on the same track.
Funimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described

https://youtu.be/iI2X_NvRjPk

https://youtu.be/ZnriaELk_pw

https://youtu.be/lsUJ_k3-1QE

Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:14 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 am
LostTimeLord wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:52 am

So you end up with moments where a joke happens during an action scene and it feels like the music is cutting itself off with how quickly it switches back and forth between 'action' and 'comedy' modes. And you get voices like Usopp's, which totally exaggerates his comedic persona at the expense of any range when sincere moments actually show up. One Piece was already known for its tone shifts, but the 4Kids version pushes everything up to eleven and then shifts the tone around even more. Funi, however, seemed to understand the appeal of their DBZ and kept it on the same track.
Funimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described

https://youtu.be/iI2X_NvRjPk

https://youtu.be/ZnriaELk_pw

https://youtu.be/lsUJ_k3-1QE

Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.
Ugh, those were some of THE worst laughably bad attempts at comedy ever. Clearly the "punch up" people doing the scripts wanted to put what they thought was funny stuff into scenes every chance they got, no matter how cringe worthy and absolutely God awful they actually were.
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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by LostTimeLord » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:52 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 am Funimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described
Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.
TBH, I'm more familiar with the two Funi/Ocean seasons than the rest of the dub.
Even so, I think that those kinds of changes did more damage to One Piece because (back then) it dedicated more time to world building and new character introductions over individual fights.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:40 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 am Funimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described

Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.
For me, stuff like this pours cold water on the claim that "the Z dub was better".

They're both bad dubs and were bad in a lot of the same ways (chief among them being that faithfulness to the original version wasn't a priority for either). Funimation's Z dub simply had the benefit of lasting long enough to marginally (emphasis on marginally) improve on its bad foundation.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:51 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:40 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 am Funimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described

Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.
For me, stuff like this pours cold water on the claim that "the Z dub was better".

They're both bad dubs and were bad in a lot of the same ways (chief among them being that faithfulness to the original version wasn't a priority for either). Funimation's Z dub simply had the benefit of lasting long enough to marginally (emphasis on marginally) improve on its bad foundation.
Quality is rarely the reason something actually does well. Pretty much any criticism thrown 4Kids One Piece way can be applied to Funimation Dragon Ball Z including over the top censorship and ill fitting voices.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Fionordequester » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:48 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 amFunimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described

https://youtu.be/iI2X_NvRjPk

https://youtu.be/ZnriaELk_pw

https://youtu.be/lsUJ_k3-1QE

Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.
Majin Buu wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:40 pm For me, stuff like this pours cold water on the claim that "the Z dub was better".
Judging the dub based on Season 3 is like judging James Marsters for his drunken rants performance in Xenoverse 2. Both were in their "we don't know what we're doing" phase, and drastically improved (not just marginally) almost immediately after. Neither are fair comparisons to what ended up being the baseline.
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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:57 pm

Fionordequester wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:48 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 amFunimation Z’s dub especially season 3 does literally what you just described

https://youtu.be/iI2X_NvRjPk

https://youtu.be/ZnriaELk_pw

https://youtu.be/lsUJ_k3-1QE

Serious scene *comedic line* *comedic track* were everywhere in season 3.
Majin Buu wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:40 pm For me, stuff like this pours cold water on the claim that "the Z dub was better".
Judging the dub based on Season 3 is like judging James Marsters for his drunken rants performance in Xenoverse 2. Both were in their "we don't know what we're doing" phase, and drastically improved (not just marginally) almost immediately after. Neither are fair comparisons to what ended up being the baseline.
But it didn’t drastically improve. Season 4 wasn’t much better than Season 3 and so forth. It was a pretty gradual improvement over time.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:01 pm

I'd personally say that the Z dub's "we don't know what we're doing" phase lasted up until about when Imperfect Cell shows up. It was a gradual change, but I don't think it was as gradual as certain dub critics claim. And even if we're only using the worst parts of the Z dub as comparison (Saban and the Frieza arc), the One Piece dub is even worse, much worse in fact.

Some of the VAs in Z may not have fit well, but were they really worse than the ridiculous pirate accents given to every single character in One Piece? The script writing in Z may have caused contradictions like planet Vegeta being destroyed "3 years ago" or Goku's father being "a brilliant scientist", but is it really worse than One Piece chopping out entire plot-important arcs? Dead characters being sent to "the next dimension" and Nappa blowing up "cargo robots" may be ridiculous, but is it really more ridiculous than guns being replaced by Super Soakers and Nami's "rubber knife"? You get the picture.

Of course the Z dub has a lot of bad aspects, to say otherwise would be denial. But I feel like saying that it's anywhere near as bad as the One Piece dub is also denial, and comes more from fan anger than a genuine comparison of the 2 dubs.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Fionordequester » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 amBut it didn’t drastically improve. Season 4 wasn’t much better than Season 3 and so forth. It was a pretty gradual improvement over time.
I once binge watched the Orange Bricks, with subtitles on the entire time. As such, I can sat this: Even putting aside the subjective stuff, the translation showed improvement as early as Season 4 (where I believe they hired Steve Simmons). Instead of just being off all the time, it was about 33% "this is exactly what they said", 33% "that's sort of what they said", and 33% "you're just making stuff up"—with those ratios going up or down based on which writer had adapted that particular episode.

Combine that with them hiring more actors (instead of just using Chris Sabat for everyone), and hiring Scott Morgan as a composer (instead of just Mike Smith doing all of Faulconer's work) and you can see a drastic improvement in the production quality alone.

ZeroIsOurHero is right, of course—Season 5 is where things really started to click. But, even Season 4 is noticeably improved from Season 3. Hence, Season 3 should not be used as the baseline.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:34 pm

Fionordequester wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:13 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:10 amBut it didn’t drastically improve. Season 4 wasn’t much better than Season 3 and so forth. It was a pretty gradual improvement over time.
I once binge watched the Orange Bricks, with subtitles on the entire time. As such, I can sat this: Even putting aside the subjective stuff, the translation showed improvement as early as Season 4 (where I believe they hired Steve Simmons). Instead of just being off all the time, it was about 33% "this is exactly what they said", 33% "that's sort of what they said", and 33% "you're just making stuff up"—with those ratios going up or down based on which writer had adapted that particular episode.

Combine that with them hiring more actors (instead of just using Chris Sabat for everyone), and hiring Scott Morgan as a composer (instead of just Mike Smith doing all of Faulconer's work) and you can see a drastic improvement in the production quality alone.

ZeroIsOurHero is right, of course—Season 5 is where things really started to click. But, even Season 4 is noticeably improved from Season 3. Hence, Season 3 should not be used as the baseline.
Even in season 3 the script would occasionally be accurate. The very beginning of episode 68 is almost dead on accurate sans some punch up humor and some added nonsense about Burter having fought hundreds of Saiyans. FUNimation’s pre-Kai scripts were always “Nearly dead on the same as Japanese version” “It kinda sorts says the same thing but in a way that’s completely different than how it was said in the subtitles” “What the hell are they even talking about?” often within the same episode. I’m sure the ratio of accurate to inaccurate in season 4 was a bit better than season 3 because A. They hired Simmons as their official translator and B. I believe John Burgmier took over script supervisors duties from Chris Neel. But there was still a shit ton of inaccuracies many of which came to bite Funimation in the ass later. Like 17 and 18 referring themself as completely synthetic, references to events in the original Dragon Ball that turned out to be laughably dead wrong once they started dubbing the original Dragon Ball and crap like Goku telling Gohan he needs to let go of his anger to became a Super Saiyan.


And of course writing is just part of a dub. I’ll give you some of the newer additions like Huber and Mccoy’s Androids and Dameon Clarke’s Cell were solid enough performances and Eric Vale’s Trunks was okay (ironically he got worse in the years his Trunks in Kai and Super is practically unbearable)and hey Schemmel, while not really nailing Goku until broadcast season 5, had shown tremendous improvement from the awkward line deliveries he was giving in season 3 (actually I think he started getting the hang of voice acting almost right as Goku went Super Saiyan) But Sabat’s Piccolo and Vegeta were still excruciatingly painful as was Nadolny’s Gohan. And when those are some of the most prominent characters that isn’t good. Plus Dale Kelly’s cringe narration style.

So yes season 4 was better than season 3 but not to any significant degree.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Fionordequester » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:47 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:34 pm So yes season 4 was better than season 3 but not to any significant degree.
I've got responses to the rest of what you said—but my main point is that Season 3 should not be used as the baseline for judging the dub's quality. Every single other Season was better than it, in one way or another. Can we agree on that, at least?
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:58 pm

One Piece is just a less appealing show to English speakers. Long after 4Kids' dub had faded, the franchise isn't some mega powerhouse in North America. The show failed on TV three separate times (4Kids, Funimation on original Toonami, Funimation on revival Toonami). The dub is ongoing because of Toei and subsidies from the Japanese government, not because it's become one of Funimation's marquee properties. In 2017, Fairy Tail: Dragon Cry outgrossed One Piece: Film Gold at the U.S. box office. It goes without saying that Fairy Tail has had nowhere near the exposure One Piece has had. For starters, it's never aired on mainstream TV.*

I've always been very sceptical of the claim that 4Kids never really wanted One Piece and only got it as part of a package deal. That came from a 4Kids employee, who didn't work for the company when they worked on the show. The other series he mentioned as being part of the package aren't from the same companies as One Piece. Frankly, the idea they got it by happenstance doesn't jive with what we know. One Piece was a desired property. We know of multiple potential suitors that weren't 4Kids (notably, Funimation). Why would Toei award it to a company that wasn't really interested? In fact, if 4Kids weren't interested in One Piece, why did it land a mass-market toy deal with Mattel and had video games? That wasn't something they expected to come and go like Fighting Foodons.

*Granted, Stampede would later do better than both, but it had a wider release and benefitted from those event runs becoming more well known.
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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:37 pm

It's probably because Funimation dub DBZ in the style of MMPR by having feel like a badass cartoon for kids while One Piece never did. Both of their dubs are terrible with the same type of problems The only difference between the two is the 9-10 year gap between them with DBZ airing in 1996 and One Piece airing in 2005. People probably were more aware of the changes for One Piece because dial up Internet was not a big thing anymore and people can find stuff way quicker with a simple google search in 2005.
ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:46 am [*]No censorship after Saban left (although even the Saban censorship was somewhat less ridiculous)
The series still had to deal with censorship on CN. I still remember DBZ on CN being called the "baby version of DBZ" meanwhile the Japanese version was view as the hardcore version because it had blood, swearing and nudity. I remember if you want to watch DBZ in its true form, you had to watch it in Japanese uncut.
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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:09 pm

There was still censorship while the in-house dub aired on television, but the censorship was much more lax than what the show faced during the first two seasons, thanks to Cartoon Network’s more lenient standards. Still, it’s unlikely that made a difference. The syndicated dub did extremely well on Toonami.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:14 pm

I swear to God the edited in-house Funi dub gets glossed over simply because it’s not readily available anymore. Sure it was much less censored than the days of syndication but it was still edited down. Death still got danced around a lot, butts and peen was still a no go, hell was still called Home For Infinite Losers. Drinking and Smoking was still prohibited, Mr.Satan was only known as Hercule, and tame dialog in the uncut got “cleaned up” (My butt’s on fire vs My rear’s on fire)

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Adamant » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:34 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:37 pm It's probably because Funimation dub DBZ in the style of MMPR by having feel like a badass cartoon for kids while One Piece never did. Both of their dubs are terrible with the same type of problems The only difference between the two is the 9-10 year gap between them with DBZ airing in 1996 and One Piece airing in 2005. People probably were more aware of the changes for One Piece because dial up Internet was not a big thing anymore and people can find stuff way quicker with a simple google search in 2005.
Little kids watching and enjoying 4Kids One Piece weren't any more aware of the changes than little kids watching and enjoying Funi Deebeezee were. It was the online One Piece fandom in 2005 and the online Dragonball fandom in 1996 that knew how badly done these dubs were and hated them.

The only actual difference between the two is that 4Kids One Piece ended and got replaced before its fans got old enough to go on the Internet and start fights about how much 4Kids saved One Piece and how even Oda watches it in English because the Japanese version is so terrible.
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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:14 pm I swear to God the edited in-house Funi dub gets glossed over simply because it’s not readily available anymore. Sure it was much less censored than the days of syndication but it was still edited down. Death still got danced around a lot, butts and peen was still a no go, hell was still called Home For Infinite Losers. Drinking and Smoking was still prohibited, Mr.Satan was only known as Hercule, and tame dialog in the uncut got “cleaned up” (My butt’s on fire vs My rear’s on fire)
They didn't really dance around death, they just never used the word "kill," with the exception of the Giga-Chadhan line.
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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:34 pm

I watched every episode of 4Kids One Piece. At the time I was aware it had a bad reputation for censorship and such. I enjoyed it for what it was, and some of the voices were decent, but the censorship did get pretty absurd. When guns are turned into waterpistols it takes away all tension.

The "Next dimension" stuff from DBZ actually made sense because it was literally true that they were going to another dimension. And it was still blatantly obvious for any kid watching that the characters had died. 4kids One Piece avoided showing death altogether; Bellamere getting "Sent to Arlong's Dungeon" is one example.

I think it's fair to say Funimation were all in on DBZ from the start. They were counting on it from day 1. 4kids didn't want One Piece to begin with, and only dubbed it because they happened to get the rights in a package deal.

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:24 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:34 pm
The "Next dimension" stuff from DBZ actually made sense because it was literally true that they were going to another dimension. And it was still blatantly obvious for any kid watching that the characters had died. 4kids One Piece avoided showing death altogether; Bellamere getting "Sent to Arlong's Dungeon" is one example.

I think it's fair to say Funimation were all in on DBZ from the start. They were counting on it from day 1. 4kids didn't want One Piece to begin with, and only dubbed it because they happened to get the rights in a package deal.
The next dimension/another dimension stuff is just an easy target for mockery but it really wasn’t that bad, even though they really should have used “otherworld”

Civilians making impossible escapes from Nappa’s wrath(complete with added assurance commentary! ) and asthmatic Namekians and Freeza soldiers were far more annoying than anything

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Re: Why did 4Kids One Piece FAIL while Funimation's Dragon Ball succeeded?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:20 pm

I also think people give the Funimation dub of DBZ a free pass because it was a gateway to anime for many young children. People have the "First = The Best".
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