Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

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Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by dultimate02 » Thu May 19, 2022 2:09 pm

So obviously the entirety of the Dragon Ball Series’ Original Broadcast Audio has leaked online. And of course, fans were the ones who recorded this audio while the show was being aired in Japan. But at the end of the day, the audio from the show is owned by Toei right, which is why using that audio in videos or posting links to it is considered encouraging piracy? What’s really stopping Toei from downloading the leaked broadcast audio online and using it in their future releases? Don't they own the rights to that audio for all intents and purposes? I know there was an effort to make sure that the broadcast audio didn’t get leaked in order for it to be used in future releases potentially, but now that it’s out there, could there really be legal ramifications against Toei/Funimation if they used it? And who could really tell who’s tape was used for what episode if they used the broadcast audio on a future release? I'm super curious about this.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu May 19, 2022 2:38 pm

There are intricacies of particularly Japanese copyright law that I don't think anyone here has the actual authority to speak to regarding that question.

There are all sorts of weirdness loopholes I could see just based on what little I personally know about American copyright law: technically they would be using computers to access those materials, technically they would be accessing physical locations they don't personally operate, technically they would simultaneously be distributing that material were they to access it by means of torrents... even just these three examples alone tap into long-outdated copyright laws on our books that have far-reaching ramifications.

What's truly in their "best interest" as a business is to ignore it as the absolute minutia of nothingness in the grand scheme of things that it is, and just let the audio/videophiles do their thing on their own time as far away from them as possible.

...and that's a super bummer for folks who truly want the best-possible version of the show, but if you're at that level, you're probably already doing something about it yourself, right?
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu May 19, 2022 2:39 pm

It's TOEI's anime, I'm sure they would be free to use the broadcast audio in any sort of release without fear of legal ramifications. That said I think the fact TOEI threw out the original audio masters to begin with shows how little they care for it.

Dragon Ball to TOEI is merely a show they adapted from Toriyama's manga in the 80s and 90s as a commercial to sell toys and merchandise, unlike fans like us they never considered it a product worth preserving. It's a shame too because this is a classic series and a huge part of anime history, but I am grateful there were at least those who recorded the audio who saw it as more than that.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu May 19, 2022 3:50 pm

They way I see it, but I am no expert, the audio in japanese belongs to toei, any other audio version is a dub and therefore property of whichever company did it.

I believe original DB, DBZ and DBGT should be copyright free by now since they are old and anyone creating content based on such series should not be penalized, as we are only perpetuating the origins. Now, when it comes to Kai, DBS and anything post that date, penalty should happen because it is the current product which TOEI is trying to get profit from.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu May 19, 2022 4:21 pm

I can't speak to what is or isn't Toei's right, but I can definitively say that FUNimation can't release anything without Toei's consent (which is part of the reason it took a while to get Toei to authorize the release of the North American Dragon Boxes--it was supposed to be a Japan-only thing). So, if Toei doesn't OK the release of the original broadcast audio, that's kind of the end of that as far as FUNimation is concerned.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by dultimate02 » Thu May 19, 2022 4:49 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:38 pm There are intricacies of particularly Japanese copyright law that I don't think anyone here has the actual authority to speak to regarding that question.

There are all sorts of weirdness loopholes I could see just based on what little I personally know about American copyright law: technically they would be using computers to access those materials, technically they would be accessing physical locations they don't personally operate, technically they would simultaneously be distributing that material were they to access it by means of torrents... even just these three examples alone tap into long-outdated copyright laws on our books that have far-reaching ramifications.

What's truly in their "best interest" as a business is to ignore it as the absolute minutia of nothingness in the grand scheme of things that it is, and just let the audio/videophiles do their thing on their own time as far away from them as possible.

...and that's a super bummer for folks who truly want the best possible version of the show, but if you're at that level, you're probably already doing something about it yourself, right?
Those loopholes do sound troublesome, especially the bit about the uploading nature that comes with torrents, but it genuinely sucks that there isn't a high-quality video and audio release of a legendary anime series like Dragon Ball in any official capacity, especially because the audio is out there. I wish the laws there were a lot more forgiving. I get what you're saying though. and....right :silent:
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by dultimate02 » Thu May 19, 2022 5:14 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:39 pm It's TOEI's anime, I'm sure they would be free to use the broadcast audio in any sort of release without fear of legal ramifications. That said I think the fact TOEI threw out the original audio masters to begin with shows how little they care for it.

Dragon Ball to TOEI is merely a show they adapted from Toriyama's manga in the 80s and 90s as a commercial to sell toys and merchandise, unlike fans like us they never considered it a product worth preserving. It's a shame too because this is a classic series and a huge part of anime history, but I am grateful there were at least those who recorded the audio who saw it as more than that.
That's what is so disappointing to me too, especially since the means to help preserve that show in good quality exist and are out there but like you said, Toei has little care for the show. It also sucks how the 16mm film prints are probably just collecting dust in a storage closet somewhere.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by ikaos » Thu May 19, 2022 11:03 pm

If you are aware enough of the existence of the Broadcast Audio on torrent sites, then you already have access to things that will never be on an official release. Both Toei and FUNi have an abysmal record on remastering Dragon Ball so it's probably better if they never touch the classic series' again. They also have no incentive to do so as the number of fans that want a good quality official release pales in comparison to the size of the fanbase as a whole who will consume the show regardless of the quality of the release. Just look at the people in this very forum who convinced themselves that they "might as well buy the steelbooks" because they need to have a physical copy of the show.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by coola » Sat May 21, 2022 10:21 am

Toei also censored middle fingers in recent Blu-Ray releases of Movies, so yeah..unless it's competent company like Discotek, i wouldn't trust Toei/Funimation for decent release of DB/DBZ/DBGT.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by jaisonas » Tue May 24, 2022 3:06 am

dultimate02 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:09 pm What’s really stopping Toei from downloading the leaked broadcast audio online and using it in their future releases? Don't they own the rights to that audio for all intents and purposes?
The fact that way before the leak, the audio was taken to Toei which showed no interest whatsoever in using it.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri May 27, 2022 6:52 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:39 pm It's TOEI's anime, I'm sure they would be free to use the broadcast audio in any sort of release without fear of legal ramifications. That said I think the fact TOEI threw out the original audio masters to begin with shows how little they care for it.

Dragon Ball to TOEI is merely a show they adapted from Toriyama's manga in the 80s and 90s as a commercial to sell toys and merchandise, unlike fans like us they never considered it a product worth preserving. It's a shame too because this is a classic series and a huge part of anime history, but I am grateful there were at least those who recorded the audio who saw it as more than that.
A lot of people don't realized that prior to the rise of the home video market, no one thought they would re-use anything in a meaningful way, unless they were looking to syndicate. Or take it to a different country. Very few things even did that.

What was it ... Master recordings for Beatles music just ended up being found in some dude's garage or basement back in the early nineties or something. Square Enix lost the source code to Kingdom Hearts and had to reverse engineer it. Keeping all media active all at once is a recent thing in the last two decades. And we're still having to deal with making sure licenses stay up to date.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by supersaiyamangod » Sun May 29, 2022 1:40 pm

coola wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:21 am Toei also censored middle fingers in recent Blu-Ray releases of Movies, so yeah..unless it's competent company like Discotek, i wouldn't trust Toei/Funimation for decent release of DB/DBZ/DBGT.
I don’t care what anyone says I would like a company like discotek to have the rights because I can’t stand some of the voices they kept in the dub of the dragon ball franchise.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by ikaos » Mon May 30, 2022 2:54 pm

supersaiyamangod wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:40 pm
coola wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:21 am Toei also censored middle fingers in recent Blu-Ray releases of Movies, so yeah..unless it's competent company like Discotek, i wouldn't trust Toei/Funimation for decent release of DB/DBZ/DBGT.
I don’t care what anyone says I would like a company like discotek to have the rights because I can’t stand some of the voices they kept in the dub of the dragon ball franchise.
What does that have to do with Broadcast Audio?

Either way Discotek doesn't really go out of their way to do new dubs, so they'd likely just use the FUNi version. On topic, it's a moot point anyway because even if Discotek had the rights and had the BA, they still wouldn't be able to use it for the same reason that FUNi didn't use it. The issue lies with Toei.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by supersaiyamangod » Tue May 31, 2022 6:31 pm

ikaos wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:54 pm
supersaiyamangod wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:40 pm
coola wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:21 am Toei also censored middle fingers in recent Blu-Ray releases of Movies, so yeah..unless it's competent company like Discotek, i wouldn't trust Toei/Funimation for decent release of DB/DBZ/DBGT.
I don’t care what anyone says I would like a company like discotek to have the rights because I can’t stand some of the voices they kept in the dub of the dragon ball franchise.
What does that have to do with Broadcast Audio?

Either way Discotek doesn't really go out of their way to do new dubs, so they'd likely just use the FUNi version. On topic, it's a moot point anyway because even if Discotek had the rights and had the BA, they still wouldn't be able to use it for the same reason that FUNi didn't use it. The issue lies with Toei.
I was ranting about how I hate funimation dub and just wishing a better dubbing company had the rights that’s all but yeah I forgot they don’t do dubs but still I wished better had the rights. Sorry I said it hear.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:19 pm

Discotek wouldn't go out of their way to create the new, more faithful dub so many fans want, but I have no doubt they would put out Dragon Ball releases that would please most fans. They could put Steve Franko's restoration on discs (the man confirmed to someone I trust that he did all 291 episodes), as well as Funimation's perfectly fine digibetas for OG Dragon Ball and GT. Even if they were all on SD-BD it wouldn't be hard to match the quality of the Dragon Boxes (which aren't bad, but are generally pedastalized just because they're better than all the other in-print releases), and even surpass them in some cases (Z would be better as it would be a HD scan of film masters).

Discotek would also do the kinds of releases for collectors some fans (myself included) have been clamouring for, for years, like the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, a re-release of the Saban, BLT and Big Green dubs (including the broadcast-only OG Dragon Ball movies and GT special), Harmony Gold, even Frontier Enterprises, if that dub existed. Hell I bet they would even release Ocean Kai, which would sell like hotcakes.

They are a company by anime fans for anime fans, and I encourage anyone to reach out to Crunchyroll in case there is any sort of shake up in management coming out of Texas that would mean they'd be more willing to cooperate with Discotek on future releases. It's always worth asking.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Pride9000!!! » Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:08 pm

This might be stupid, I don't know from a legal standpoint or something like that. Let's say Toei wants to do a HD release, but they have bad audio. So they take the broadcast recordings from online. And if they had a documentary or something like that they can say oh we went back and fix the audio or we found new sources or something like that and no one would blink or think anything suspicious.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Inkei9001 » Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:13 pm

They could. It would be far from the first time fan sourced content was used on a release. But given that we know they still have the original gt audio masters already digitized and still didn't use them well it's kinda clear they don't care about the audio quality. Like I don't think it's even a pride thing since they have the gt audio and still don't use it outside of tv airings(aka not even on streaming) they just don't care. They know they don't need to do the extra effort.

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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by dultimate02 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:36 am

I felt that maybe I should add to this thread because of the recent news.

The upcoming French Blu-ray of Dragon Ball, which seems to be the best Home Media release of the series since…forever, officially has the series’ Broadcast Audio right on the disc. No muffled garbage! In fact, it seems they literally ripped it right off a pirate site. While this is extremely based, I can’t imagine that this release won’t gonna get recalled. Could we perhaps have another Yamamoto/Kikuchi Kai Blu-ray fiasco on our hands? I mean this is pretty weird; an Officially Licensed release getting leaked Broadcast Audio of all things??? As a fan, I think this awesome, but I’m sure Toei wouldn’t have changed their tune on the Broadcast Audio all of a sudden and approved of this. Right? What does everyone think of this?
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:49 am

dultimate02 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:36 amIn fact, it seems they literally ripped it right off a pirate site. While this is extremely based, I can’t imagine that this release won’t gonna get recalled. Could we perhaps have another Yamamoto/Kikuchi Kai Blu-ray fiasco on our hands?
All I know is that a French fan was trying to get the audio to AB Video. I don't know if he was successful, although since the Japanese track on these Blu-Rays sounds identical to what's been made available through other means either he was, or AB did in fact search sites that shall not be named. It does seem like a lot of love went into this set, this guy also designed the cover.

As for the possibility of TOEI demanding the audio be replaced and putting what's available out of circulation like the Yamamoto scandal.... I don't see that as likely. AB are not using tracks that rip off other artists who never get credited, as Yamamoto did. TOEI of course are acknowledged on the box and in the credits on the discs.
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Re: Isn’t It In Toei’s/Funimation’s Legal Right to Use The Original Broadcast Audio on Future Releases?

Post by NitroEX » Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:07 pm

I suspect Toei simply have the option to turn a blind eye in the case of foreign distributors, as only hardcore audiophiles will recognize the difference in audio and even fewer will be likely to know the origins of the source being used. Even then, how do you go about proving wrongdoing? It's a lot of effort to go to with little reward.

I could see companies like Funi/Crunchyroll being scared of potential ramifications from Toei if they were to use such audio but I suspect the fear is overblown as Toei's been negligent to many things over the years and likely wouldn't seek legal action. Plus, that would probably entail the end of a business partnership (with immediate loss of foreign revenue and the headache of setting up an alternative) over something so minor, it just wouldn't be worth it.

In my opinion, it's not on the same level as the Kai composer controversy where actual music tracks could be disputed by large foreign media conglomerates. Only Toei in this case has any reason to go after someone, and I don't see them having much incentive to do so.

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