Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:21 pm

Out of the original DBZ movies, I think the only one that can neatly be slotted into the series’ continuity with little to no hiccups or fan justifications is Movie 9. I suppose Movie 13 also technically fits the bill, but it would have to take place at least a year and a half after Majin Boo’s defeat, since the Dragon Balls are used there, which I feel is pushing it in regards to Gohan and Videl still being in high school, or at the very least, still having the same teacher.

I certainly don’t think Movie 8 works. It’s a stretch to believe that the characters would have time to go out into space during the 10 day waiting period for the Cell Games. Plus, if that’s what they’re doing, you’d think someone would’ve brought up the looming threat of Cell. Then of course, there’s the fact that Goku and Gohan should be Super Saiyans at all times in the movie, but they aren’t. I never even considered the spring thing, but now that MasenkoHA mentioned it, I suppose that’s another problem.

Frankly though, I’m inclined to think Toei was more or less operating under the idea that all the movies are “canon” to the anime when it’s convenient. Aside from Garlic Jr.’s presence, there’s also Hire Dragon, who made his debut in a movie that absolutely can’t fit into the series’ continuity. Sure, you could try and hand wave it as an alternate version of Hire Dragon that Gohan met sometime after Namek, but I doubt that was Toei’s thought process. There’s also the fact that Vegeta perfectly knows how to do the Fusion Dance in GT.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:30 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:44 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:27 pm Huh? The Coola movie is a follow up to the Freeza arc where Goku became a Super Saiyan on Namek. That wasn't his first time becoming a Super Saiyan.

Lord Slug movie= Never became a Super Saiyan even on Namek since Kaio wonders if that form was Goku becoming a Super Saiyan

Coola movie= Became a Super Saiyan on Namek and then again in the showdown with Coola
Wrong, firstly, why Goku is in Earth? If it's a follow up to SSJ Goku beating Freeza, then he should be in Yardorat, there's also no Vegeta or Trunks or Freeza returning, Salza says to Cooler that Freeza is dead, implying that the Genki dama killed him (same case of Slug movie), Goku is wearing his Namek gi, Kuririn also is wearing his Namek gi which is the same gi that he uses when Goku returns to earth, Gohan is still with his Namek haircut, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE told Goku to Transform, if in this continuity, he really turned into SSJ in Namek, then we would have...Gohan saying "Dad, use the SSJ against Cooler!", but not even that happened, do you really think Goku wouldn't use SSJ against Coller from the beginning? Why did he used Kaioken? Why he had difficulty to turn into SSJ? The movie makes all of this very clear for all of us.
The movie was clearly made under the assumption that Goku was going to cleanly beat Frieza, escape Namkes explosion and return straight to Earth. During that time the anime and the manga were about as close on production as they had ever been before or since, so in all likelihood the plot had been locked in before the fight was even finished in the manga. What with Freeza's death triggering the plot, thatvshoukd be obvious
Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:45 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:59 am You forgot the biggest red flag of them all: Vegetas presence at the picnic! It's enough of a stretch to begin with, but with the Cell Games days away? Yeah, no.

Like Masenko laid out, Movies 5, 8 and 13 only work by fluke. And even movie 5 ahas some inconsistencies.

Movie 1 on the other hand, is clearly more in line with the three preceeding DB movies and providing an alternate scenario to an event in the series. Every movie after that is clearly meant to be post-saga based on current information.
I disagree, firstly, The Garlic Jr. Arc Implies that Raditz and all of the later events actually happened just like as they are in the regular continuity, and not all of the movies can be post-saga based on current manga material. Movie 3 for example, what about that line mentioning Freeza? Movie 10 definitely also can't be after a possible death of Majin Boo right after his awakening, the movie was released when his fight against Majin Vegeta was still about to start in the manga, and Movie 11 the same thing, Gohan was already training in the Kaioshin world and Gohan and Trunks were already training the fusion dance in the manga when the Movie came out, they definitely were waiting to see what would happen next, setting the events of the movie happening right after Goku returned to the Other World
Firstly, the Garlic Jr saga is completely irrelevant to a matter of Movie 1s production, given they're about 2 years apart and Toei most likely hadn't been planning a follow up anime arc ahead of time. But Movie 1s events basically assume the Raditz fight never happened. Gohan getting kidnapped, Piccolo and Goku teaming up, and Gohans hidden power at end are all treated like brand new concepts. Not to mention the entire nature of Gohans character clearly being his beginning of Z self. That's what makes the Garlic Jr. arc so dubious to begin with.

But clearly in 1989, Toei was continuing the tradition of reinterpreting an event from the original series.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:00 pm Because the movie went into production before Toei knew Goku was going to stay in space for a while after Namek. Same reason he didn't just instantly become Super Saiyan since the movie was made before Toei knew that was going to be a thing. Doesn't change the fact that Goku becoming a Super Saiyan is not treated as something he's never done before.

So much of the problems people have with the movies would be answered if they looked at where the manga and tv series were at in relation to when the movie came out.
Then how can this even be possible if Goku literally returns to his base form and then transforms into SSJ again in Namek? With that, Toei definitely should know that SSJ would be a permanent thing.
Also, this second paragraph is not quite true, this factor only serves to clear the doubt about some choices made by them at a glance, such as False SSJ or Dende becoming Kami-sama even before that happens in the manga, or also to explain timeline placement for the movies, for example explains that most movies are actually meant to be post-arc scenarios but which, as you said, based on the latest material released from the manga, would end up being completely different endings, if Cooler's movie really started to be produced around May or June, so they didn't know that Frieza would return, so we could conclude that SSJ Goku actually killed Frieza, however, going back to what I said at the beginning, shouldn't Toei known that SSJ would be permanent because of that scene on Namek that I mentioned?
Toei clearly made Goku unable to go SSJ until the end of the movie on purpose, they wanted that, Fusion Reborn is the best example for this, the Movie premiered in March 95, Goku is dead and Gohan can't go Ultimate, but Gohan already achieved his Ultimate form in the manga back in November 1994, and Goku was resurrected in December of the same year, even though the TV series hasn't reached that point at the time, Toei definitely knew about Mystic Gohan and Goku resurrecting, and we can definitely tell that Fusion Reborn productioh started in January 1995 because Toei was planning the metamoru fusion Gogeta, which influenced Toriyama to create Vegetto in the same month.
"But Goku was still dead in the anime when the movie came out"
Vegeta was also dead in the anime when Wrath of the Dragon came out, and he's alive in that movie.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:04 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:21 pm Out of the original DBZ movies, I think the only one that can neatly be slotted into the series’ continuity with little to no hiccups or fan justifications is Movie 9. I suppose Movie 13 also technically fits the bill, but it would have to take place at least a year and a half after Majin Boo’s defeat, since the Dragon Balls are used there, which I feel is pushing it in regards to Gohan and Videl still being in high school, or at the very least, still having the same teacher.
Nope, at least four months after the wish to Erase Everyone's memories of Boo is made, the Dragon balls starting from this arc returns to their normal state after 4 months, so it would be 8 months after Boo's defeat, and since that in the beginning of the Boo arc, Gohan starts to go to school, we can assume that everything before until Boo's defeat takes place around January or February, then the Wish to Erase everyone's memories was in May or June, then Wrath of the Dragon in Octuber or November, I don't know if there's a source that says that Gohan started to go to school much later in the year.
Frankly though, I’m inclined to think Toei was more or less operating under the idea that all the movies are “canon” to the anime when it’s convenient. Aside from Garlic Jr.’s presence, there’s also Hire Dragon, who made his debut in a movie that absolutely can’t fit into the series’ continuity. Sure, you could try and hand wave it as an alternate version of Hire Dragon that Gohan met sometime after Namek, but I doubt that was Toei’s thought process. There’s also the fact that Vegeta perfectly knows how to do the Fusion Dance in GT.
I agree, after all, if I included these in the initial post, I would use the classic "happened off-screen" argument, as I used for Maron, but it's obvious that Toei didn't gave a shit to the continuity of these movies, they were made for money after all, but that's why it's fun to discuss about them, because there's no real explanation, and Dainzenshuu descriptions are all wrong.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:13 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:44 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:00 pm Because the movie went into production before Toei knew Goku was going to stay in space for a while after Namek. Same reason he didn't just instantly become Super Saiyan since the movie was made before Toei knew that was going to be a thing. Doesn't change the fact that Goku becoming a Super Saiyan is not treated as something he's never done before.

So much of the problems people have with the movies would be answered if they looked at where the manga and tv series were at in relation to when the movie came out.
Then how can this even be possible if Goku literally returns to his base form and then transforms into SSJ again in Namek? With that, Toei definitely should know that SSJ would be a permanent thing.
Also, this second paragraph is not quite true, this factor only serves to clear the doubt about some choices made by them at a glance, such as False SSJ or Dende becoming Kami-sama even before that happens in the manga, or also to explain timeline placement for the movies, for example explains that most movies are actually meant to be post-arc scenarios but which, as you said, based on the latest material released from the manga, would end up being completely different endings, if Cooler's movie really started to be produced around May or June, so they didn't know that Frieza would return, so we could conclude that SSJ Goku actually killed Frieza, however, going back to what I said at the beginning, shouldn't Toei known that SSJ would be permanent because of that scene on Namek that I mentioned?
Toei clearly made Goku unable to go SSJ until the end of the movie on purpose, they wanted that, Fusion Reborn is the best example for this, the Movie premiered in March 95, Goku is dead and Gohan can't go Ultimate, but Gohan already achieved his Ultimate form in the manga back in November 1994, and Goku was resurrected in December of the same year, even though the TV series hasn't reached that point at the time, Toei definitely knew about Mystic Gohan and Goku resurrecting, and we can definitely tell that Fusion Reborn productioh started in January 1995 because Toei was planning the metamoru fusion Gogeta, which influenced Toriyama to create Vegetto in the same month.
"But Goku was still dead in the anime when the movie came out"
Vegeta was also dead in the anime when Wrath of the Dragon came out, and he's alive in that movie.
My friend, you are thinking way too hard about this.

We can reasonably deduce that Toei was probably sticking to the interpretation of Gokus speech about the Super Saiyan transformation being triggered by anger. Even Toriyama felt the need to clarify later in that Goku needed to learn how to trigger the form on command.

"But again, what about the second transformation on Namek?" You probably ask. But again - even Toriyama intreperets that as a spontaneous moment of anger at Frieza for sneak attacking him after his show of mercy.

Movie 5 came out before everyone on Namek had even been wished back and zapped to Earth in the anime and like I said earlier, thebproduction relative to the manga was TIGHT at this point. It's likely the manga hadn't even reached the end of the Frieza fight by the time the script was finalized.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:24 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:30 pm The movie was clearly made under the assumption that Goku was going to cleanly beat Frieza, escape Namkes explosion and return straight to Earth. During that time the anime and the manga were about as close on production as they had ever been before or since, so in all likelihood the plot had been locked in before the fight was even finished in the manga. What with Freeza's death triggering the plot, thatvshoukd be obvious
I agree and it does make sense, but there's still the problem of Goku turning into SSJ twice in namek.
Firstly, the Garlic Jr saga is completely irrelevant to a matter of Movie 1s production, given they're about 2 years apart and Toei most likely hadn't been planning a follow up anime arc ahead of time. But Movie 1s events basically assume the Raditz fight never happened. Gohan getting kidnapped, Piccolo and Goku teaming up, and Gohans hidden power at end are all treated like brand new concepts. Not to mention the entire nature of Gohans character clearly being his beginning of Z self. That's what makes the Garlic Jr. arc so dubious to begin with.

But clearly in 1989, Toei was continuing the tradition of reinterpreting an event from the original series.
I agree again, after all, Dead Zone also continued the pattern of just one movie per year, and the events are indeed a parallel to Raditz, but I still think that it's totally possible for Raditz to happen in that continuity, after all, even though Dead Zone was the last Movie (before Path to Power) with the purpose of retelling a arc in a differente way, some of the next ones still have events that are parallels to major scenes from the regular continuity, here's a example
Movie 2 and 3: Goku, Kuririn, Gohan, Muten Roshi, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Piccolo vs Dr. Wheelo, Bio Warriors and Turles Crushercorps are a parallel to Z Warriors vs Saiyans, Goku Kamehameha Kaioken vs Dr. Wheelo is parallel to Goku vs Vegeta, Gohan turns into a Oozaru just as he does against Vegeta.
Movie 5: Definitely a parallel to Ginyu Tokusentai and the last battle against Freeza.
Movie 7: Parallel to the battle against Androids 19, 20, 17 and 18, and maybe Cell, as Android 13 "absorbs" the parts of the other two, similar to Cell.
Movie 9: The Z Warriors fighting the Hera clan is a parallel to the battle against the Cell Juniors, while Gohan takes a beating as a SSJ1 is parallel to his fight against Perfect Cell, and SSJ2 Gohan killing everyone and Bojack is clearly a parallel to him killing Cell Jrs and Cell.

And I think that's it, I can't see Movie 10, 11 and 13 being parallels to something from the Boo arc, just Movie 12, as Janemba have huge similarities with Boo, Gotenks appear and Goku and Vegeta makes fusion, there are even some similar dialogue as Goku saying that if you're already dead and you die again, you'll disappear.

Edit: wrote this before your most recent post.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:30 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:24 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:30 pm The movie was clearly made under the assumption that Goku was going to cleanly beat Frieza, escape Namkes explosion and return straight to Earth. During that time the anime and the manga were about as close on production as they had ever been before or since, so in all likelihood the plot had been locked in before the fight was even finished in the manga. What with Freeza's death triggering the plot, thatvshoukd be obvious
I agree and it does make sense, but there's still the problem of Goku turning into SSJ twice in namek.
Firstly, the Garlic Jr saga is completely irrelevant to a matter of Movie 1s production, given they're about 2 years apart and Toei most likely hadn't been planning a follow up anime arc ahead of time. But Movie 1s events basically assume the Raditz fight never happened. Gohan getting kidnapped, Piccolo and Goku teaming up, and Gohans hidden power at end are all treated like brand new concepts. Not to mention the entire nature of Gohans character clearly being his beginning of Z self. That's what makes the Garlic Jr. arc so dubious to begin with.

But clearly in 1989, Toei was continuing the tradition of reinterpreting an event from the original series.
I agree again, after all, Dead Zone also continued the pattern of just one movie per year, and the events are indeed a parallel to Raditz, but I still think that it's totally possible for Raditz to happen in that continuity, after all, even though Dead Zone was the last Movie (before Path to Power) with the purpose of retelling a arc in a differente way, some of the next ones still have events that are parallels to major scenes from the regular continuity, here's a example
Movie 2 and 3: Goku, Kuririn, Gohan, Muten Roshi, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Piccolo vs Dr. Wheelo, Bio Warriors and Turles Crushercorps are a parallel to Z Warriors vs Saiyans, Goku Kamehameha Kaioken vs Dr. Wheelo is parallel to Goku vs Vegeta, Gohan turns into a Oozaru just as he does against Vegeta.
Movie 5: Definitely a parallel to Ginyu Tokusentai and the last battle against Freeza.
Movie 7: Parallel to the battle against Androids 19, 20, 17 and 18, and maybe Cell, as Android 13 "absorbs" the parts of the other two, similar to Cell.
Movie 9: The Z Warriors fighting the Hera clan is a parallel to the battle against the Cell Juniors, while Gohan takes a beating as a SSJ1 is parallel to his fight against Perfect Cell, and SSJ2 Gohan killing everyone and Bojack is clearly a parallel to him killing Cell Jrs and Cell.

And I think that's it, I can't see Movie 10, 11 and 13 being parallels to something from the Boo arc, just Movie 12, as Janemba have huge similarities with Boo, Gotenks appear and Goku and Vegeta makes fusion, there are even some similar dialogue as Goku saying that if you're already dead and you die again, you'll disappear.

Edit: wrote this before your most recent post.
The later movies also borrow from the original series, but keep them details vague enough to just be mere ripoff. They typically take a couple of cool scenes or plot beats and leave it that.The three DB movies and Dead Zone take storylines wholesale but tell a new story with them. Movie 1 operates as if the beginning of Z never happened. The later movies don't really ignore preceding events, they just get future stuff wrong
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:48 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:21 pm Out of the original DBZ movies, I think the only one that can neatly be slotted into the series’ continuity with little to no hiccups or fan justifications is Movie 9
Yeah and it's by no means a coincidence that the movie that has the easiest time fitting into the main storyline is the one that came out between two story arcs that have an in-universe 7 year time gap. It's not like Toei goes out of their way to make movies that can't fit the story is just too serialize. When you're making movies that are ostensibly meant to take place "after current conflict" while said conflict is still being told curve balls are gonna be thrown.

.
, since the Dragon Balls are used there, which I feel is pushing it in regards to Gohan and Videl still being in high school, or at the very least, still having the same teacher.
The teacher thing is a bit weird (really lazy character recycling) but I had the same English teacher for 10th and 12th grade. I have no clue how common such a thing is in Japan though. Since I think the idea is Gohan was starting out as the equivalent of a first year Japanese high school student at the beginning of the Buu arc (so 10th grade) I don't think its unreasonable that he and Videl would still be students. It's not like Toei or Toriyama have a good record of keeping track of the characters ages anyways

Frankly though, I’m inclined to think Toei was more or less operating under the idea that all the movies are “canon” to the anime when it’s convenient. Aside from Garlic Jr.’s presence, there’s also Hire Dragon, who made his debut in a movie that absolutely can’t fit into the series’ continuity. Sure, you could try and hand wave it as an alternate version of Hire Dragon that Gohan met sometime after Namek, but I doubt that was Toei’s thought process. There’s also the fact that Vegeta perfectly knows how to do the Fusion Dance in GT.
That's pretty much how I see it. I don't think Toei sees their movies as non-canon, I don't think they give them anymore thought than when they make up something in the tv series for padding that gets ignored by Toriyama. GT contains references to the movies and anime only filler like the Garlic jr saga because it was 100 percent Toei.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:49 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:13 pm My friend, you are thinking way too hard about this.

We can reasonably deduce that Toei was probably sticking to the interpretation of Gokus speech about the Super Saiyan transformation being triggered by anger. Even Toriyama felt the need to clarify later in that Goku needed to learn how to trigger the form on command.

"But again, what about the second transformation on Namek?" You probably ask. But again - even Toriyama intreperets that as a spontaneous moment of anger at Frieza for sneak attacking him after his show of mercy.

Movie 5 came out before everyone on Namek had even been wished back and zapped to Earth in the anime and like I said earlier, thebproduction relative to the manga was TIGHT at this point. It's likely the manga hadn't even reached the end of the Frieza fight by the time the script was finalized.
Of course I am, "Let's Talk About" That's what I want, and you clearly know that all of this is my opinion, I'm not saying that your or MasenkoHa's arguments are contradictory, I'm asking to understand and learn, there's still a lot of stuff I don't know so it's really good to dig into this, if I mentioned Goku turning into SSJ twice is because I want to see what you guys are going to answer, In the end I do agree with what you said about Toei's decisions resulted In what it turned into be because the manga wasn't ahead enough, it does make sense, but I still think in this Movie's continuity Freeza was killed by the Genkidama and that Goku never turned into SSJ in Namek, due to the simple fact that the final product still makes it look like that Goku never turned into a SSJ before, at least for me, and I think that's what counts, but it's just my opinion, if Toei or Toriyama themselves came here saying that I'm wrong, then I would need to accept it, so if at any point I made it seem like I wanted to be the right person in this subject, sorry, I often express myself badly, everything what I say here is speculation, we can all be right, as we can all be wrong.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:00 pm

Ah okay, yeah, now I understand. I would disagree though - Goku doesn't seem to react like it was anything he hadn't experienced before
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:01 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:30 pm The later movies also borrow from the original series, but keep them details vague enough to just be mere ripoff. They typically take a couple of cool scenes or plot beats and leave it that.The three DB movies and Dead Zone take storylines wholesale but tell a new story with them. Movie 1 operates as if the beginning of Z never happened. The later movies don't really ignore preceding events, they just get future stuff wrong
So what could ever have happened after Dead Zone??? Or in Garlic Jr. Arc's Continuity?? Haiya Dragon could be explained by Gohan meeting him in off-screen without the events of Movies 3 happening (and maybe 4 and 5 too), or them happening in adifferent way somehow, but Raditz was a lotta hell important (funny enough).
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:53 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:01 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:30 pm The later movies also borrow from the original series, but keep them details vague enough to just be mere ripoff. They typically take a couple of cool scenes or plot beats and leave it that.The three DB movies and Dead Zone take storylines wholesale but tell a new story with them. Movie 1 operates as if the beginning of Z never happened. The later movies don't really ignore preceding events, they just get future stuff wrong
So what could ever have happened after Dead Zone??? Or in Garlic Jr. Arc's Continuity?? Haiya Dragon could be explained by Gohan meeting him in off-screen without the events of Movies 3 happening (and maybe 4 and 5 too), or them happening in adifferent way somehow, but Raditz was a lotta hell important (funny enough).
I can't call it. The Garlic Jr arc presumes both Movie 1 and Raditz happened as exactly as presented, which is impossible
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:03 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:53 pm I can't call it. The Garlic Jr arc presumes both Movie 1 and Raditz happened as exactly as presented, which is impossible
Exactly as I thought, that's why I considered to both the Movie, the Arc and Raditz to happen in my continuity list, Toei simply used footage from the movie as a flashback, tbh, we don't even know if Raditz actually happened in that continuity (the arc one), or I'm missing something?
I can be sure that Namek arc was the exactly same, I can't remember of anything related to Raditz in that arc.
It could be the same case as Movie 6, where they show a scene from Movie 5, but in that case, they at least used a scene that isn't contradictory, even though both movies are inconsistent with each other.
Actually it's even pretty weird to think about it, because we don't know if the purpose of Dead Zone was to make Raditz inexistent, or to make him exist, but his events from not happening. For example, if we watch DB Movie 1 without knowing anything from DB Movie 3, we can't be sure if Pilaf Gang doesn't exist or if they do but the events involving them just didn't happen in the continuity, Movie 3 pretty much confirms that it's the second. I imagine if the later movies actually tried to do the same thing as the first 3 db movies and Path to Power, continuing Dead Zone.
Maybe the Dainzeshuu description for the movie could be the answer?? I'm not sure, I think Dainzenshuu's movie explanations were made for the anime only.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Ashur » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:34 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:21 pm Out of the original DBZ movies, I think the only one that can neatly be slotted into the series’ continuity with little to no hiccups or fan justifications is Movie 9. I suppose Movie 13 also technically fits the bill, but it would have to take place at least a year and a half after Majin Boo’s defeat, since the Dragon Balls are used there, which I feel is pushing it in regards to Gohan and Videl still being in high school, or at the very least, still having the same teacher.
I don't see how that is a problem, i had the same teachers being repeated for some assignments over the course of 4 years, and that is too much of a minute detail, the anime directly shows Great Saiyaman 2 to tie into the movie in a way, so it's the most solid connection to a movie the Z anime has.

Personally i think that movies 9 and 13 are the ones that 100% did happen in the main continuity, then there are movies 8, 5 and 1 (in order of probablility of happening) as the movies that can happen in the main timeline if we excuse some minor contradictions, with the most contradictory being movie 1, but alas, the Z anime directly references it, so it has to happen by force regardless of the Gohan contradiction.

We even get Cooler directly showing up during GT in his fifth form:
Image

So if we have to excuse Goku not using SSJ until the last possible moment in movie 5 and Krillin and Bulma forgetting about Goku having a kid due to the anime itself referencing these events, movie 8 not showing Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans shouldn't be a big deal at all, and Vegeta being at a party?I don't see how that's a problem given the precedent Toriyama set with Vegeta staying for barbecue at Bulma's while he makes time to wait for Goku, here he's waiting for the Cell Games, it's the same thing, compared to movies 5 and 1 it's far easier to make it fit.

I like your ideas for the timelines OP, even though i disagree on separating the Garlick Jr. movies and arc from the main timeline, it's better to just assume that it de facto happened regardless of contradictions, i think movie 5 could happen in both the Slug timeline and the main timeline (as i explained).

One thing, however: Why in so many of these do the characters have to die, tho? In the Slug/Cooler timeline i definetly see them beating the androids in the long run, it's not impossible, same for the Super 13/Metal Cooler timeline, why would they get killed by Buu? We don't know what could have happened in the 7 years after Super 13, perhaps Goku achieved SSJ2 by training and easily beat Dabura, and with Goku being alive Vegeta wouldn't be desperate for having his rematch when he did, so it could be a rather smooth timeline.

I think Gohan had Ultimate in movie 12 due to never going SSJ, i think in that timeline Gohan beat Buu not Gotenks, and i don't think Goten recognizing Goku during moive 10 at that moment means it's after the Tournament, i always got the sense that he reacted that way because of instinctively knowing that's his dad and that he was helping them, especially due to Gohan's reaction.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:46 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:03 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:53 pm I can't call it. The Garlic Jr arc presumes both Movie 1 and Raditz happened as exactly as presented, which is impossible
Exactly as I thought, that's why I considered to both the Movie, the Arc and Raditz to happen in my continuity list, Toei simply used footage from the movie as a flashback, tbh, we don't even know if Raditz actually happened in that continuity (the arc one), or I'm missing something?
It did. The Garlic Jr. arc isn't some completely separate entity. It's part of the same anime continuity that presents the Raditz stuff. At *best* you can just make up an alternate timeline where it happens but even then, it's a reach. But as far as where it actually happens, it's a total plot hole that renders the arc irrelevant.

The only movie related stff where there's a near impenetrable line of continuity are the first 3 DB Movies all being one continuous storyline (an alternative to the first 3 DB arcs). Hell you can even say an alternate version of the Piccolo business happens here leading into Movie 1. Beyond that, Movie 9 fits the cleanest in the main story unless you want to get into the minutia of Trunks' hair. And I suppose Movies 5 and 6 can directly follow each other. Movie 7 *could* take place in the unseen timeline that was visited by the original Trunks (now dead by Cell's hands).
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:59 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:46 pm It did. The Garlic Jr. arc isn't some completely separate entity. It's part of the same anime continuity that presents the Raditz stuff. At *best* you can just make up an alternate timeline where it happens but even then, it's a reach. But as far as where it actually happens, it's a total plot hole that renders the arc irrelevant.
Sorry but I actually meant a direct reference to the Raditz or Saiyan arc stuff, as a line or flashback, something, The Freeza arc we can easily tell that it exists in that continuity in the way as we know because of the consequences, as Goku in space, Vegeta alive and saying that he turnend into a SSJ, stronger Piccolo due to the fusion with Nail, and more, but I don't remember of stuff from Saiyan arc being particularly referenced in Garlic Jr. Arc.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:07 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:59 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:46 pm It did. The Garlic Jr. arc isn't some completely separate entity. It's part of the same anime continuity that presents the Raditz stuff. At *best* you can just make up an alternate timeline where it happens but even then, it's a reach. But as far as where it actually happens, it's a total plot hole that renders the arc irrelevant.
Sorry but I actually meant a direct reference to the Raditz or Saiyan arc stuff, as a line or flashback, something, The Freeza arc we can easily tell that it exists in that continuity in the way as we know because of the consequences, as Goku in space, Vegeta alive and saying that he turnend into a SSJ, stronger Piccolo due to the fusion with Nail, and more, but I don't remember of stuff from Saiyan arc being particularly referenced in Garlic Jr. Arc.
It doesn't matter whether it references the Saiyan arc or not. It takes place in the same series, and since the Frieza saga can't even happen without the events of the Saiyan saga, and Gohan and Piccolos characters aren't the way they are in the Garlic Jr arc without the events of the Saiyan saga. That's it. You're best off not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole
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Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:52 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:31 pm While I tried to explain, In the bottom, I actually agree, but I still think that is the fault of the "movies needs to start in a slice of life scenario" pattern, and that they don't want to expose arc material in the movies, and actually there's one thing I forgot.
If we really go with that idea of Vegeta Dai Ni Dankai or Trunks Dai San Dankai defeating Semi Perfect Cell, then that means there is no reason for them to achieve the SSJFP form, which enters in conflict with my theory that Vegeta and Trunks actually used SSJFP against Broly and Bojack, like, honestly, at least for me, none of the two look very muscular in both movies, they don't even have veins. In Cell Games, both of the two stop using SSJ DND and DSD, for me they definitely use SSJFP in Movie 8 and 9, or there's a official source stating that they used those forms in these movies? I honestly don't know.
I think they beat 2nd form Cell because it's the easiest fight for them, I guess they could've defeated Cell, but then we would have to change the story too much and make Perfect Cell kinda lackluster. I tend to think these movies take place after the gang doesn't screw it up, like letting Cell reach perfection, fooling around and not killing Super Boo, not deactivating the androids, or Goku leaving Freeza alive on Namek. To parallel this to Xenoverse 2, like doing a parallel quest without going for the Ultimate Finish.
Vegeta seemed pretty muscular to me in that movie, though.

RE: Cooler movie. I always wanted to believe that the genkidama did the trick, and that the whole Super Saiyan that defeated Freeza was just regular Goku with his super attack, not really blond Goku.
I guess it could go either way, IIRC there was nobody there to witness SS Goku vs Cooler and comment on the novelty -or not-, and it is possible to assume that SS Goku killed Freeza before reaching his FP, again taking the most practical route: not giving the villain a break.
I wouldn't give much thought into Goku's second activation of SS on Namek, considering that took place around may of '91, and the Cooler movie premiered two months later, when the movie should've been pretty much finished.
TL;DR: I think it's vague enough for the viewer to choose their own Namek scenario.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:44 am

I think there's a lot of overthinking going on (which yeah I'm guilty of too). Toei would have known at the very least that their audience would have have seen Goku go Super Saiyan in the manga by the time the Coola movie came out in theaters. The movie came out just a few weeks after Goku became a Super Saiyan in the tv series. There's absolute zero reason to think the idea is Goku never defeated Freeza as a Super Saiyan in movie 5's timeline. With the exception of the og Dragon Ball movies and the Garlic Jr movie (which at least treats the original Dragon Ball series as having happened) the movies do not present themselves as the stuff in tv series that has happened up to the point of their release has having played out differently.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:41 pm

Ashur wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:34 pm with the most contradictory being movie 1, but alas, the Z anime directly references it, so it has to happen by force regardless of the Gohan contradiction.
Outside of the Garlic Jr. Arc???? Seriously??
We even get Cooler directly showing up during GT in his fifth form:
Image
I seriously didn't remember that frame :cry: , thanks, soo, that means GT is...? I'm really not sure, well, having in mind that there's the possibility of Movie 6 not being in the same continuity as the Movie 5 as we know, then we can go by what you said about at least Movie 5 actually happening, despite the contradictions, or Movie 5 happened, but differently.
So if we have to excuse Goku not using SSJ until the last possible moment in movie 5 and Krillin and Bulma forgetting about Goku having a kid due to the anime itself referencing these events, movie 8 not showing Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans shouldn't be a big deal at all, and Vegeta being at a party?I don't see how that's a problem given the precedent Toriyama set with Vegeta staying for barbecue at Bulma's while he makes time to wait for Goku, here he's waiting for the Cell Games, it's the same thing, compared to movies 5 and 1 it's far easier to make it fit.
I agree, but there's the fact that the world is completely fine, no one seems to be scared of Cell, which is something I explained with a out-universe argument, that the movies always needs to start with everything looking fine in the beginning. My bet is that it happens right after the Military starts to attack Cell, because it's after it that we are introduced to Satan, and everyone puts their hopes on it, which would gave a good reason for everyone to be fine. Kuririn, Yamcha, Muten Roshi and some of the others do look worried during the 10 days, sure, but Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks don't. Even though we can do this, it's easy to understand that Toei's intention was to avoid anything related to the current anime arc in the movie.
I like your ideas for the timelines OP, even though i disagree on separating the Garlick Jr. movies and arc from the main timeline, it's better to just assume that it de facto happened regardless of contradictions, i think movie 5 could happen in both the Slug timeline and the main timeline (as i explained).
I got curious, how would you fit Dead Zone and Garlic Jr. Arc into the continuity? MasenkoHa said some things that made me believe that Movie 5 can indeed happen in the main timeline, but jjgp even said that it's impossible to fit Movie 1.
One thing, however: Why in so many of these do the characters have to die, tho? In the Slug/Cooler timeline i definetly see them beating the androids in the long run, it's not impossible, same for the Super 13/Metal Cooler timeline, why would they get killed by Buu? We don't know what could have happened in the 7 years after Super 13, perhaps Goku achieved SSJ2 by training and easily beat Dabura, and with Goku being alive Vegeta wouldn't be desperate for having his rematch when he did, so it could be a rather smooth timeline.
Because honestly I actually got that from several theories very similar to each other around the internet, it was like a general consensus for me, so I came with that, and You're actually right, we literally had Goku training for no reason during 7 years with 100% of peace, to the point of achieving SSJ3, Vegeta also doesn't stop training, even in Battle of Gods Goku still trains even though Earth is peaceful and he now haves a job (starting from RoF things changes tough, looks like Goku & Vegeta are already always expectating a new menace), so saying that they would stop training is no excuse, but I just really can't explain what would happen in the future of these continuities.
I think Gohan had Ultimate in movie 12 due to never going SSJ, i think in that timeline Gohan beat Buu not Gotenks.
Tbh, the only reasons for me to assume that in Movie 12 Gohan doesn't have Ultimate, is because of, firstly, he simply doesn't use it, I know, yeah, I agree, it's a lazy and easy excuse, if this was only due to this, I actually wouldn't consider it as a "proof", but the other reason that made me to assume that he doesn't have it yet in the movie is because the Movie released when the anime was still in the Gotenks fight against Super Boo inside the ROSAT, imagine if Gohan actuallt went Ultimate in the film, so they would show Gohan using a new power before the anime did, even though in the manga Ultimate Gohan was already absoberd by Boo at the time, but i think we can discount this as something relevant.
and i don't think Goten recognizing Goku during moive 10 at that moment means it's after the Tournament, i always got the sense that he reacted that way because of instinctively knowing that's his dad and that he was helping them, especially due to Gohan's reaction.
You're right, But I didn't said that due to that it can't be before the tournament, I only confirmed that many people places this movie in the timeline before 25tb, and I agree, I actually always believed the movie could be in all likelihood before the TB, I actually only think it can't happen in the regular continuity, while it can happen before TB, there's still the DBs stuff.
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