What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

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What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pm

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"Hate" may be a strong word, but I've noticed a growing swell of fans who seem to view Toei Animation with a degree of contempt when it comes to their contributions to Dragon Ball. I've been wanting to make a thread addressing this for some time, but struggled to find a way to frame the topic without it coming across like that "y r u gay?" interview. This thread may just be an excuse for me to gush over Toei, but it's only fair to give them some love.

For many fans, authenticity to the original author's vision is absolutely essential. I largely agree. Toriyama's involvement, or merely his stamp of approval, can generally be used as a mark of quality and canonicity to the amazing world he has created. However, Toei's many artists, animators and associated studios have also been by Toriyama's side, helping to develop his vision for Dragon Ball on the small screen since 1986. I feel that their contribution to Dragon Ball as a story and as a global phenomenon really can't be overstated. While Toriyama has had his conflicts with the anime production staff at some points, notably when he expressed disappointment that the early Dragon Ball anime's colour palette and visual style were still too bright and kitschy for the brand of serious martial arts action that the story would soon focus on, I think that just shows that there was always a lively creative symbiosis going on between the manga and anime that ultimately elevated both. It says a lot that Mayumi Tanaka's performance as Kuririn was so singularly iconic that Toriyama made sure to note -- in a medium without audio -- that Yajirobe had the same voice as Kuririn to make sure that Tanaka would continue to act for the series even after Kuririn's death.

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As we all know, Toriyama has taken inspiration from the anime and movies numerous times. When the original author lifts directly from other authors in the same franchise, at what point can we really claim there's a "purity" of artistic vision at play here? Should Koyama and others be placed on a similar pedestal as Toriyama when Toriyama plays around with their ideas? For me, I suppose it boils down to Toriyama and his own irreverent approach to Dragon Ball. He has always been supportive of others having their way with Dragon Ball and doing interesting things outside of his own comfort zone, so I have no problem extending support to people beyond Toriyama, even if their visions are sometimes very different from his.

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While a complete non-issue to most of the public, for hardcore fans of any media, it can be hard not to get preoccupied by issues of authenticity, canonicity, the author's opinion of XYZ sequel/adaptation. Yeah, I can't deny that knowing how George Lucas feels about Disney and the nostalgia-driven direction they took with the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy does affect my opinion of them "canonically" speaking. But I feel that sometimes, fans can lose the forest for the trees. Stephen King was critical of Stanley Kubrick's film adaptation The Shining, but hardly anyone is dumb enough to deny that the film is a highly influential banger in its own right. Stephen King may have created that world, but should Kubrick have been denied his own artistic vision when adapting it for cinema? If we get more in the realm of direct sequels, James Cameron took a completely different approach to Aliens than Ridley Scott did with the original Alien, yet nobody complains because it turned out really well. Roy Lichtenstein's WHAAM! is lifted from some panels in DC Comics' All-American Men of War, yet it arguably stands alone as an elevated work of art due to how effectively the imagery is recontextualised.

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Keeping the story streamlined across both mediums, Dragon Ball didn't have much of an issue with people going off-script. As was the case with many animated manga adaptations, Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z mostly stuck to the story of the comic beat for beat, with filler of varying quality added in. As the story gradually devolved into endless fighting, something Toriyama himself came to regret, the filler expansions to the brief periods of peace between the main arcs -- while not hugely necessary -- definitely help to keep viewers invested in the Dragon Ball world across both mediums. Knowing that Goku, Gohan, Kuririn and the others have lives outside of brutal deathmatches for the fate of the planet is strangely comforting.

In terms of a story that was solely imagined by Toei, Dragon Ball Z: A Lonesome, Final Battle has always been praised extremely highly by just about everyone including Toriyama, while also acknowledging that it was darker than anything he would personally write. Whatever you think of that special, it in many ways best represents what Toei brought to the table creatively, and what made the marriage between the manga and anime so incredibly strong. I won't delve too much into this or other Toei-made continuations like Dragon Ball GT (which was also highly praised by Toriyama and, while obviously a different beast, still carried over Toriyama's charming sensibilities in some ways) because I have little to say that hasn't been said many times before, but the point is that Toei managed to be faithful while also taking creative risks.

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To this day, Toei's staff still have extremely important contributions to the series, especially when you consider that there is no longer a singular script to go off. Among many other unique character designs for the Tournament of Power arc, Kale was contributed by Toei yet she was extensively used in Toriyama and Toyotaro's manga version of the storyline, and her design inspired Toriyama to come up with another female Super Saiyan, Caulifla. Hell, the "revival" era movies, while heavily attributed to Toriyama in the writing department, are still 100% Toei productions and all of them have long empty stretches in their screenplays in which Toriyama encourages the animators to do their own thing (i.e. "and then a big fight happens").

When it comes to the latest Super arcs, I've often seen the criticism "this is worse than a Toei movie" as if the only connotations anyone can draw from that comparison are negative. Well shit man, considering that some of the Toei's movies are arguably up there with peak Dragon Ball in terms of phenomenal hand-drawn animation, memorable character designs (some produced by Toriyama himself), amazing voice acting, digestible storylines for their short runtimes, authenticity to the wuxia genre, etc. I can't help but find comments like that weirdly snide and dismissive. Aren't Battle of Gods, Revival of F, Broly and Super Hero all "Toei movies" as well? :wink:

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To wrap this all up, the point I mainly want to get across is pretty simple: show some respect to Toei, creep.
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:12 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pm "y r u gay?" interview.
Well, a few years ago I realized I'd rather be a bisexual woman instead of a straight man and that led to me saying "I'm a girl" and "I'm bisexual!" and "I'm going to get my doctor to prescribe me the surprisingly affordable medication that feminizes my body so I can look more girly!" and here we are!

Anyway, the basic answer likely lies in how our capitalist society covets the limiting of quantity so as to apply an artificial value to things. This bleeds over into art and thus leads to consumers pitting works against one another so as to appear morally and artisitically superior to an artificially demonized 'other'.

Basically (well, more basically), I think we need to cultivate an environment of fandom being more aware that they can just be cute girls who like more than one thing because art appreciation and fandom are not a competition.
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by Geraldo » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:48 am

I, as an amature animator, don't hate Toei Animation's products, may them be the movies, OVAs and Dragon Ball GT; I also believe that the anti-filler/non-canonical Toei material sentiment in the fandom would have been much weaker if the said products were fitting one homogeneous structured story/timeline. But they are what they are.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:32 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pmFor many fans, authenticity to the original author's vision is absolutely essential.
But then you find out there might be a large portion in the fandom willing to sacrifice the script just so the characters can have a good voice. "Authenticity" might not be priority number one... unfortunately.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pmToriyama's involvement, or merely his stamp of approval, can generally be used as a mark of quality and canonicity
Eh, that's questionable. Even speaking in "general".
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pmbut the point is that Toei managed to be faithful while also taking creative risks.
You'll never get anywhere if you don't do that. And you'll never know if it's gonna work until you take that risk. Which is why nonsensical lines such as "this never fit Tori's manga" that I've had the unpleasure to see will always be a very idiotic thing to say. Dragon Ball has already implemented stuff that would/could be said to be "unfitting", but here we are, alive and well, and so is the franchise.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pmWhen it comes to the latest Super arcs, I've often seen the criticism "this is worse than a Toei movie" as if the only connotations anyone can draw from that comparison are negative. Well shit man, considering that some of the Toei's movies are arguably up there with peak Dragon Ball in terms of phenomenal hand-drawn animation, memorable character designs (some produced by Toriyama himself), amazing voice acting, digestible storylines for their short runtimes, authenticity to the wuxia genre, etc. I can't help but find comments like that weirdly snide and dismissive. Aren't Battle of Gods, Revival of F, Broly and Super Hero all "Toei movies" as well? :wink:
I don't know about Dragon Ball Super, but when it comes to the old movies and the games today, those "weirdly snide and dismissive" comments, for the most part, stem from the old "if Toriyama isn't involved, it's garbage!1!1!!11!" shit that plagues this fandom. A disease for which we don't have a cure yet. I will agree that Toei hasn't produced anything good in modern times, but that's definitely not to say they never did anything remarkable or that their contribution is "bad by default". I still have faith in Dende they will come up with something original and as good as the Bardock TV Special, or will adapt something into an even better version, like the Trunks TV Special.

If Dragon Ball Super comes back, that'd be another chance for them to come up with a TV Special and/or an OVA for it. I don't know why they haven't done it already anyway.
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:21 am

While it's small, there is a portion of any fandom that put way too much emphasis on the importance of timelines, canon, lore, power scaling, etc. as opposed to narrative. There are some that want stories to fit together like a puzzle and function like an RPG.

And I think part of the dislike towards filler is because it's an easy and tangible detail people can point to as a reason for perceived lack of quality. It's far easier than substantive criticism.
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by Desassina » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:04 am

Most people can't separate these products when they talk about Dragon Ball and I think that the minority who's followed the manga before the anime is a bit bitter that their world can't be shared without being tainted by another. The internet made them vocal against casuals and a shift in the entertainment industry made streaming channels the new content release window where people from different backgrounds meet. The fact that Dragon Ball Super was delivered as an anime series and deemed sufficient to most people to get the story and narrative without following Toyotaro's manga must have annoyed some fans.

At the end of the day, everyone had better know both products and appreciate their differences, but also the fact that Dragon Ball had a complete anime run and still exists in compact form to read at your own pace. Toei Studios' contributions are at least better and sometimes more in line with its original content than most fan fiction. Toriyama's new ideas having felt like they were taken from the latter notwithstanding. It's their treatment that matters.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by coola » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:53 am

I can hate bad people, like Putin :) Disappointment is more fitting word, especially when i know they can do it if they try, instead they produce medicore, because they know its gonna sell :( Hiring newbie writers, that openly ignore lore (Namekians having great hearing) is one example that comes to mind, making Goku act like retard, Chi-Chi being soccer mom again...
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:21 am

Tomioka Atsuhiro is one of my favorite writers so I really enjoy when he writes a Dragon Ball episode. I opine about it all the time but I love the strategy he wrote Gokuu ueing in Dragon Ball Super #123 that nearly knocked Jiren out of bounds.


https://youtu.be/ulIBezpZcVE
coola wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:53 am I can hate bad people, like Putin :) Disappointment is more fitting word, especially when i know they can do it if they try, instead they produce medicore, because they know its gonna sell :( Hiring newbie writers, that openly ignore lore (Namekians having great hearing) is one example that comes to mind, making Goku act like retard, Chi-Chi being soccer mom again...
What the heck does Putin have to do with Dragon Ball?
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:24 am

I think one of the "benefits" of this franchise being so long-running and omni-present into the "modern era" is that we have things like:

(1) Its original manga widely available in multiple foreign translations, many of them quite excellent, and many of them even more further widely available through digital means (I largely mean legal, like Viz's $2/month archive -- that's mondo nuts!)

(1b) We also now have things like an official English release of Akira Toriyama's Manga Theater on top of the previous Dr. Slump release, which gives Dragon Ball fans a MUCH better look and deeper insight into who Toriyama actually was as an author and illustrator LEADING UP to Dragon Ball (and in some cases, slightly beyond it)

(2) Selfishly listed here, resources like Kanzenshuu that strive to be comprehensive about the entire production of the entire franchise, documenting all of the little changes and minutia along the way that led to the spin-off products (like the TV series) being what they are, how they are, why they are, and who they're from

It provides a larger picture, one you can actually do some genuine analysis from. It's no longer just a series you watched on TV; you have all the information in the world that you can use to do your own critical thinking, as well as compare notes with peers.

That all leads to new thoughts and new re-evaluations. With real names! And real citations! And that's a good thing! It's no longer just "triangle man" animation analysis, and it's no longer just "speech Goku" movie analysis.

It all comes in waves, too. Fans are always coming and going, with (anecdotally from myself being in the game here for 25+ years) most fans only sticking around for a couple/few years at a time. Every time someone says "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE CELL ARC?!" it's invariably just a year or two after people were shouting "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE BOO ARC?!" It's funny to watch folks think they have novel thoughts, but at the same time, I'd argue these arguments and analysis are consistently moving forward the "FURTHER INFORMED" end of the spectrum than ever before.

...That kinda went in a couple different directions, but I think that's my quick take on it!
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by coola » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:50 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:21 am What the heck does Putin have to do with Dragon Ball?
Ah, sorry, what i meant to say, is that i wouldnt use such strong word for people who create cartoons, even if they do bad job at times. I reserve hate for truly horrible people, who make people live a living hell.
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:29 pm

Toei has produced good Dragon Ball material (including some filler), but I think you see this anti-Toei sentiment among fans because their misses leave a more lasting impression than their successes: Bad filler, bad animation days in the TV series, the Z movies' reputation for being disposable fight-fests with little story happening, and the failure of Dragon Ball GT.

I think all of these misses coalesced into the idea that Toei can't do Dragon Ball justice without Toriyama's work to jump off of.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:59 pm

Thanks for the detailed responses, everyone!
Majin Buu wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:29 pm Toei has produced good Dragon Ball material (including some filler), but I think you see this anti-Toei sentiment among fans because their misses leave a more lasting impression than their successes: Bad filler, bad animation days in the TV series, the Z movies' reputation for being disposable fight-fests with little story happening, and the failure of Dragon Ball GT.

I think all of these misses coalesced into the idea that Toei can't do Dragon Ball justice without Toriyama's work to jump off of.
Yeah, that's all pretty accurate. Though Toriyama's own failings have also been very visible in recent years, Toei's missteps always stand out most.

I wanted to clarify in the post that people are entitled to dislike Toei's work and there are many legitimate reasons I'd agree with
VegettoEX wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:24 am I think one of the "benefits" of this franchise being so long-running and omni-present into the "modern era" is that we have things like:

(1) Its original manga widely available in multiple foreign translations, many of them quite excellent, and many of them even more further widely available through digital means (I largely mean legal, like Viz's $2/month archive -- that's mondo nuts!)

(1b) We also now have things like an official English release of Akira Toriyama's Manga Theater on top of the previous Dr. Slump release, which gives Dragon Ball fans a MUCH better look and deeper insight into who Toriyama actually was as an author and illustrator LEADING UP to Dragon Ball (and in some cases, slightly beyond it)

(2) Selfishly listed here, resources like Kanzenshuu that strive to be comprehensive about the entire production of the entire franchise, documenting all of the little changes and minutia along the way that led to the spin-off products (like the TV series) being what they are, how they are, why they are, and who they're from

It provides a larger picture, one you can actually do some genuine analysis from. It's no longer just a series you watched on TV; you have all the information in the world that you can use to do your own critical thinking, as well as compare notes with peers.

That all leads to new thoughts and new re-evaluations. With real names! And real citations! And that's a good thing! It's no longer just "triangle man" animation analysis, and it's no longer just "speech Goku" movie analysis.

It all comes in waves, too. Fans are always coming and going, with (anecdotally from myself being in the game here for 25+ years) most fans only sticking around for a couple/few years at a time. Every time someone says "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE CELL ARC?!" it's invariably just a year or two after people were shouting "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE BOO ARC?!" It's funny to watch folks think they have novel thoughts, but at the same time, I'd argue these arguments and analysis are consistently moving forward the "FURTHER INFORMED" end of the spectrum than ever before.

...That kinda went in a couple different directions, but I think that's my quick take on it!
Oh, I have no doubt that nothing I've said here counts for anything new or revelatory in the grand scheme of things, popular opinions have come and gone like clockwork for however many years, but I hope some of what I've written resonates with others' experiences on some level.
Grimlock wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:32 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pmbut the point is that Toei managed to be faithful while also taking creative risks.
You'll never get anywhere if you don't do that. And you'll never know if it's gonna work until you take that risk. Which is why nonsensical lines such as "this never fit Tori's manga" that I've had the unpleasure to see will always be a very idiotic thing to say. Dragon Ball has already implemented stuff that would/could be said to be "unfitting", but here we are, alive and well, and so is the franchise.

I don't know about Dragon Ball Super, but when it comes to the old movies and the games today, those "weirdly snide and dismissive" comments, for the most part, stem from the old "if Toriyama isn't involved, it's garbage!1!1!!11!" shit that plagues this fandom. A disease for which we don't have a cure yet. I will agree that Toei hasn't produced anything good in modern times, but that's definitely not to say they never did anything remarkable or that their contribution is "bad by default". I still have faith in Dende they will come up with something original and as good as the Bardock TV Special, or will adapt something into an even better version, like the Trunks TV Special.

If Dragon Ball Super comes back, that'd be another chance for them to come up with a TV Special and/or an OVA for it. I don't know why they haven't done it already anyway.
Can't help but agree with most of this. When I see those sorts of criticisms, a part of me thinks "good!" as any sequel, spin-off or adaptation should diverge from the source material, not be an exact replica. If you showed someone from 1985 who'd only read the first couple arcs what the manga would eventually become under the same author's pen, they'd have much the same rejective reaction. "Why is the art style so sharp and jagged, this looks nothing like Toriyama's art style! Where's the goofy comedy? Why is everyone now an alien super-mutant?" Toriyama has no problem changing up his own style, he certainly doesn't mind when others take similar liberties.
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:12 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pm "y r u gay?" interview.
Well, a few years ago I realized I'd rather be a bisexual woman instead of a straight man and that led to me saying "I'm a girl" and "I'm bisexual!" and "I'm going to get my doctor to prescribe me the surprisingly affordable medication that feminizes my body so I can look more girly!" and here we are!

Anyway, the basic answer likely lies in how our capitalist society covets the limiting of quantity so as to apply an artificial value to things. This bleeds over into art and thus leads to consumers pitting works against one another so as to appear morally and artisitically superior to an artificially demonized 'other'.

Basically (well, more basically), I think we need to cultivate an environment of fandom being more aware that they can just be cute girls who like more than one thing because art appreciation and fandom are not a competition.
All this (including the first paragraph, thanks for answering Mr Njala's question so thoroughly :lol: ), I'm so sick of everything being a "my artist can beat up your artist" contest. Preferring a comic over a cartoon doesn't make someone the second coming of Jesus Christ.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by Goe » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:10 pm

My experience about Toei hatred.

When I was a child in 90s I loved DB and DBZ anime (and I still love), I became a DB fan thanks to anime, so I couldn't be a Toei hater.

However, I remember I found Garlick minisaga so boring. On the other hand, I loved Bardock special. Both were Toei products, in fact, and that proofs I liked some Toei-exclusive stuff, but some don't. I liked Toei's movies but I remember thinking about it was the same scheme over and over: Goku's team defeating a villain with no relevant data. In Bardock special we saw Planet Vegeta and saiyans before genocide, how genocide was, who was Goku's father and who were his friends, how was Vegeta as a kid, etc. Film's were a bit unsubstantial for me when I was a child but I liked them anyway. So I enjoyed Toei's products.

However, when GT was released I didn't like it at all. I was 11 years old then, I didn't care if was Toriyama or Toei scriptwritters who created that plots and I even ignored that the animation company's name was Toei. Of course, I didn't use internet them so I couldn't be biased by opinions on forums and/or social media. My real life friends who were fans of DB didn't generally like GT but they said it after I noticed I didn't like it.

Being a DB fan, I read the whole manga in 2004 (before then I had only read some isolated chapters. In any case, before that I already known movies and GT were anime-exclusive) and I noticed about there were a lot of DB and DBZ tv series exclusive stuff. However, I didn't know them the concepts of canon and filler, and I didn't care.

In 2006 I registered in a DB forum in Spanish and I learnt the meaning of filler, Toei and canon. I learnt only manga was canon and the other stuff merchandising. Despite being canon or not, there was a lot of Toei hatred there. Some users usually said filler, Gt and movies wers full of inconsistencies and manga was perfect. They exposed hunreds of inconsistencies of Toei stories but justified Bardock breathing in the space (it appears in a manga panel) saying "there were oxygen near the planet" or Cell regenerating after his head was destroyed by Goku with another non-sense reason I don't remember now.

Then I was too young and, before reading that forum I already liked DB manga and hated GT so that comments biased me until reading DB manga with critical thinking I noticed is also full of inconsistences (but I liked it anyway).

So, being too young and biased by Toei's haters, I believed manga was perfect and Toei didn't but I was never a Toei hater (I love Bardock special and he has been always one of my favourite characters). However, in that forum I was blamed twice for being a Toei hater (unfairly): once because I said when Violet steals Red's money is filler so it wasn't canon and about the other one… I don't remember really, but someone called me Toei hater and I replied "how can I be a Toei hater being a Bardock fan?". In any case that 2 people were sick of Toei haters, and that proofs Toei haters were very common then.

Nowadays I think Toei haters are less common since Toriyama is involved in plot in the last Toei creations since Battle of Gods. However, when anime-exclusive plots were only written by Toei scriptwritters, it caused that nowadays inexistent dychotomy. Hope this helped.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by Vijay » Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:51 am

Besides their God thankful contributions in DB, DBZ, some DBZ films, practically none of their work since 1996 since dbgt has done good for thr franchise

Thinkin abt it, dbgt, kai, kai2.0, dbs, horrendous special/ova, dbs films..db heroes..dang...

You weigh in DB/DBZ against all those trash..thankfully DB franchise has got hardcore fanbase who time & again kept forgivin toei...but in recent era..I think ppl are less forgivin tbh...

I knw quite a numn of guys who abandoned dbs altogether & nvr since looked forwrd to any db products frm toei in recent times...

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:29 am

My only issue with Toei has always been that it ignores the fact that Dragon Ball is a growing global franchise. This leads to a slew of issues related to product investment.

Looking at what Dragon Ball is worth and seeing it being treated no better than it was in the 80s and 90s is annoyingly bizarre.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by YMK_8000 » Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:25 pm

Toei has done their good for the franchise(in the past) but they’ve done even more harm than good in recent times.


But let’s not be hyperbolic and call everything trash now going down the list

Dbgt is strangely beloved nowadays Debatable

Kai is just a sloppy recut but the content(story) is mostly the same as Z-

2008 OVA- harmless I don’t see how that damage the franchise

Bardock/Hatchiyak ova- really are we counting these? if so on the level of the old Toei movies slightly lower. ?

DBS is universally despised and was even on the list of worst anime series of all time. So yes TRASH

BOG is wanked to the high heavens by the old ass geezers in this fandom I see very few calling that movie trash.

ROF- mildly forgettable pile of shit TRASH

Broly- the single best product produced in this damn franchise since the early 90s

SH- image ROF but 530000 times worse HOT FLAMING DOGSHIT


I think for Dragonball to be successful again you need a change in overall culture from the top. You won’t get that at Toei. Plus the dead weight needs to be cut loose. I think the franchise is big enough you can do it without Toriyama crappy writing and designs. All Toei or whoever would have to do is keep quiet and just mention his name of the special thanks credit & the fandom would be none the wiser.


Dragonball is a simple franchise and easy to be successful again yet Toei fumbles every time with it. Keep it straight gas on the pedal action from beginning to end, 2-D hand drawn, & fun, cool villain design and powers the rest can be whatever as long as it’s serviceable & makes sense within the story. Profit.

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:33 pm

YMK_8000 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:25 pm Toei has done their good for the franchise(in the past) but they’ve done even more harm than good in recent times.


But let’s not be hyperbolic and call everything trash now going down the list

Dbgt is strangely beloved nowadays Debatable

Kai is just a sloppy recut but the content(story) is mostly the same as Z-

2008 OVA- harmless I don’t see how that damage the franchise

Bardock/Hatchiyak ova- really are we counting these? if so on the level of the old Toei movies slightly lower. ?

DBS is universally despised and was even on the list of worst anime series of all time. So yes TRASH

BOG is wanked to the high heavens by the old ass geezers in this fandom I see very few calling that movie trash.

ROF- mildly forgettable pile of shit TRASH

Broly- the single best product produced in this damn franchise since the early 90s

SH- image ROF but 530000 times worse HOT FLAMING DOGSHIT


I think for Dragonball to be successful again you need a change in overall culture from the top. You won’t get that at Toei. Plus the dead weight needs to be cut loose. I think the franchise is big enough you can do it without Toriyama crappy writing and designs. All Toei or whoever would have to do is keep quiet and just mention his name of the special thanks credit & the fandom would be none the wiser.


Dragonball is a simple franchise and easy to be successful again yet Toei fumbles every time with it. Keep it straight gas on the pedal action from beginning to end, 2-D hand drawn, & fun, cool villain design and powers the rest can be whatever as long as it’s serviceable & makes sense within the story. Profit.
I'm curious: Why do you think it is necessary for you to provide marketing and financial strategy to Toei Animation? What exactly are you going to get out of it?
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by YMK_8000 » Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:07 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:33 pm
YMK_8000 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:25 pm Toei has done their good for the franchise(in the past) but they’ve done even more harm than good in recent times.


But let’s not be hyperbolic and call everything trash now going down the list

Dbgt is strangely beloved nowadays Debatable

Kai is just a sloppy recut but the content(story) is mostly the same as Z-

2008 OVA- harmless I don’t see how that damage the franchise

Bardock/Hatchiyak ova- really are we counting these? if so on the level of the old Toei movies slightly lower. ?

DBS is universally despised and was even on the list of worst anime series of all time. So yes TRASH

BOG is wanked to the high heavens by the old ass geezers in this fandom I see very few calling that movie trash.

ROF- mildly forgettable pile of shit TRASH

Broly- the single best product produced in this damn franchise since the early 90s

SH- image ROF but 530000 times worse HOT FLAMING DOGSHIT


I think for Dragonball to be successful again you need a change in overall culture from the top. You won’t get that at Toei. Plus the dead weight needs to be cut loose. I think the franchise is big enough you can do it without Toriyama crappy writing and designs. All Toei or whoever would have to do is keep quiet and just mention his name of the special thanks credit & the fandom would be none the wiser.


Dragonball is a simple franchise and easy to be successful again yet Toei fumbles every time with it. Keep it straight gas on the pedal action from beginning to end, 2-D hand drawn, & fun, cool villain design and powers the rest can be whatever as long as it’s serviceable & makes sense within the story. Profit.
I'm curious: Why do you think it is necessary for you to provide marketing and financial strategy to Toei Animation? What exactly are you going to get out of it?
it goes back to thread question why Toei is despised it’s the egregious mishandling of the franchise in this modern era. I just offered a simple fix solution. What would I get out of it? Idk a watchable show that’s actually funny, has good development of characters with good designs but nah for this fandom that asking way to much.

They definitely could use that advice SEVERELY. they are looking like brainless fools compared to how other modern anime are handled today lol. Do you think they are handling this franchise in the right way?

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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:22 pm

YMK_8000 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:07 pmit goes back to thread question why Toei is despised it’s the egregious mishandling of the franchise in this modern era.
Not really, but bare in mind they aren't handling the franchise much different than they were in the 1980s and 1990s. At least now we've gotten cool female characters like Caulifla, Kale and Ribrianne. That's better than Toriyama and Toyo-tarou continually introducing new female characters to just shit all over them.
YMK_8000 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:07 pmI just offered a simple fix solution. What would I get out of it? Idk a watchable show that’s actually funny, has good development of characters with good designs but nah for this fandom that asking way to much.
I understand wanting Toei Animation to be better but everything you've suggested is mostly up to subjectivity and otherwise has no effect on the lives of real people.
YMK_8000 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:07 pmThey definitely could use that advice SEVERELY. they are looking like brainless fools compared to how other modern anime are handled today lol. Do you think they are handling this franchise in the right way?
I do not believe that the poor portrayals of women, queer people and minorities in their work are appropriate and I would argue that those things absolutely need to be improved upon by both Toei Animation produced projects and Shueisha produced projects. Nobody pays me to market Dragon Ball or any commercial art, so I'm not exactly inclined to think up ways for the executives to steal even more of their employees profits. I have nothing to gain from Dragon Ball competing with some other childrens-aimed commercial franchise.
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Re: What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:13 am

YMK_8000 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:25 pm

DBS is universally despised
This isn't even remotely true and I say this as someone who was pretty lukewarm towards Super overall.

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