FUNimation Dragon Box Z #1 (In-Hands) Discussion

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Post by Smooth Criminal » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:37 am

Kendamu wrote:Oh, wow. PS3? You have to change your Upscale settings to "Normal." You can find it in the A/V settings from that menu you can bring up with Triangle while playing a DVD. If the Upscale is "None" or "Full" it'll stretch. If it's "Normal" it'll fit your screen properly.
So apparently, my PS3 refuses to upscale because I am hooked up to the tv via component connection (no hdmi). Is there any other way to adjust the settings so that I may view this properly? I don't quite understand why I need to be upscaling just to view a simple image in the correct ratio.

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Post by Greenman » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:41 am

Smooth Criminal wrote:So apparently, my PS3 refuses to upscale because I am hooked up to the tv via component connection (no hdmi). Is there any other way to adjust the settings so that I may view this properly? I don't quite understand why I need to be upscaling just to view a simple image in the correct ratio.
I believe you can press triangle as you are playing the DVD to access more settings. Have you tried that?

Edit: I don't know if you missed my post a couple pages back:
greenman wrote:Are you sure your TV doesn't have settings for something called "anti-image retention" or something similar? Most plasma TVs have gray pillar boxes to prevent the image from burning in but they can almost always be turned off.

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Post by Kendamu » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:51 am

Smooth Criminal wrote:
Kendamu wrote:Oh, wow. PS3? You have to change your Upscale settings to "Normal." You can find it in the A/V settings from that menu you can bring up with Triangle while playing a DVD. If the Upscale is "None" or "Full" it'll stretch. If it's "Normal" it'll fit your screen properly.
So apparently, my PS3 refuses to upscale because I am hooked up to the tv via component connection (no hdmi). Is there any other way to adjust the settings so that I may view this properly? I don't quite understand why I need to be upscaling just to view a simple image in the correct ratio.
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Post by penguintruth » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:57 am

It was a guest review by yours truly.

I thought my review was pretty fair, actually. I even mentioned what it was I liked about Son Goku, and hell, even used "Son Goku". I went out of my way to praise the Kikuchi score, too.

I guess one of my failings was trying to "justify" enjoying DBZ and qualifying it. But the show has its faults, and I'm not trying to score points by only accentuating the positives.

I do, by the way, love the Dragon Box.
Last edited by penguintruth on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Post by Smooth Criminal » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:04 am

To be a little bit more specific, I am watching on a Sony CRT. This is an HDTV from 2003, so there is no hdmi support at all.

I did check for an anti-image retention burn in setting on the tv to see if I could make the grey pillar boxes black, but it's a no-go.

Guess I'm just screwed on this one, and will have to make the most of a stretched image. Thanks for the help.

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Post by SHINOBI-03 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:14 am

Best parts from the review:
The series - which, let's not forget, is a sequel to the original adventures of lil' Goku, as chronicled in Dragon Ball - does tend to push its past behind it pretty quickly, though, especially concerning the characters. While Roshi, Yamucha, and Tenshinhan were all important players in the previous series, here they're supporting cast at best, and cannon fodder at worst. It's a little disappointing, and it's definitely a strike against the show, but it's not difficult to adjust to. It's just one of those warts that as fans of the show, you likely come to accept. At least those guys aren't Lunch. The poor woman barely gets a cameo.
One thing that never gets enough attention in Dragon Ball Z is the orchestral score composed by Shunsuke Kikuchi. He's been composing for anime adapted from Akira Toriyama manga since the first Dr. Slump series. He composed for the original Dragon Ball series and continues the trend with some takes on old pieces while introducing brand new ones. The original score, with its hints of old martial arts films and operatic epics, are every bit the fabric of the series as the animation itself.
The English dub track is, frankly, a relic of the past, and is often inaccurate in both word and tone. It may hold nostalgia value for the people who grew up listening to Goku's various stiff, generic tough guy voices and over-the-top morality speeches on television (which is a lot of people, to be fair), but it tends to gloss over some of the nuances of the Japanese version. Masako Nozawa's performance as our hero in orange captures a bit more of his personality, where Sean Schemmel's seems to go more for a voice that fits the body type. A lot of subpar scripting and awkwardly inserted jokes makes the antiquated English dub seem more than a little cheeseball.
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Post by Kendamu » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:06 am

Smooth Criminal wrote:To be a little bit more specific, I am watching on a Sony CRT. This is an HDTV from 2003, so there is no hdmi support at all.

I did check for an anti-image retention burn in setting on the tv to see if I could make the grey pillar boxes black, but it's a no-go.

Guess I'm just screwed on this one, and will have to make the most of a stretched image. Thanks for the help.
Any "zoom" or "display" settings on your TV? I have several on mine so I can stretch and crunch the picture in a few different ways depending on what I'm watching.

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Post by G1Ravage » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:18 am

I randomly decided to throw in one of the old Ultimate Uncut discs and watched episode 27, the one where Piccolo throws himself in front of Nappa's attack at the end of the episode.

The difference between these discs and the Dragon Box is immense. With the old footage, aside from the crackles and sparkles and dirt and stuff, it looks like the contrast and sharpness were turned way up. The more subtle, darker colors of Muten Roshi's clothes and Gyumao's beard look flat out black on the old discs. And there's a certain harshness to the picture.

But I also discovered something interesting about the way the scenes were framed between the old and the new. The old Ultimate Uncut discs, despite being slightly zoomed in (a staple of FUNi's old masters), there's more footage visible on the right side of the frame than what we get on the Dragon Box. In fact, it looks like the Ultimate Uncut has more overall footage. That could just be the creditless masters FUNi used to have, and it's the episodes themselves that have the zoom effect.

I took some quick snaps of my TV to illustrate the difference. Ultimate Uncut is on the top; Dragon Box is below.

Image Image

Image Image

Image Image

We know that Pony Canyon went and realigned the frames, so perhaps this is a result of their adjustments on certain frames. There's also overscan to take into consideration, but I played both discs on the same TV, in the same PS3, with the same settings. It doesn't make sense that a 16x9 TV set to play, pixel for pixel, a 4x3 video source, would have overscan, but apparently it does. When I play the Dragon Box on my computer, I get more overall picture on the sides. For instance, on the next episode preview Dragon Ball Z logo splash, I can see red fencing on the side of the thick, vertical pillar, which I can't see on my TV.

Image

On my TV, I would see nothing past the pillar.

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Post by Greenman » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:37 am

G1Ravage, could you take a screenshot of that last frame on the TV with both the UUC/Dragon Box discs?

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Post by Levlik » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:31 am

G1Ravage wrote:When I play the Dragon Box on my computer, I get more overall picture on the sides. For instance, on the next episode preview Dragon Ball Z logo splash, I can see red fencing on the side of the thick, vertical pillar, which I can't see on my TV.
That's just overscan. Everything has it. For example, on a lot of the Disney DVDs I know Disney specifically puts black bars on that small section just so you're able to view absolutely everything on your TV. Some HDTVs, mine included, allow you to view things in their native resolution, allowing you to see more footage than a TV normally would.

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Post by Li'l Lemmy » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:03 am

greenman wrote:G1Ravage, could you take a screenshot of that last frame on the TV with both the UUC/Dragon Box discs?
That would be quite impossible. The shot in question is part of a preview for the next episode, and such previews (for Z, anyway) are exclusive to the Dragon Box discs.


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Post by Greenman » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:26 am

Li'l Lemmy wrote:
greenman wrote:G1Ravage, could you take a screenshot of that last frame on the TV with both the UUC/Dragon Box discs?
That would be quite impossible. The shot in question is part of a preview for the next episode, and such previews (for Z, anyway) are exclusive to the Dragon Box discs.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I mean the last one that he originally took a picture of playing on his TV. I was asking for an actual screen shot of that frame.

Edit: Worded better.
Edit 2: Never mind, anyway.
Last edited by Greenman on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by TripleRach » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 am

G1Ravage wrote:But I also discovered something interesting about the way the scenes were framed between the old and the new. The old Ultimate Uncut discs, despite being slightly zoomed in (a staple of FUNi's old masters), there's more footage visible on the right side of the frame than what we get on the Dragon Box. In fact, it looks like the Ultimate Uncut has more overall footage. That could just be the creditless masters FUNi used to have, and it's the episodes themselves that have the zoom effect.
I thought this was common knowledge by now, since it's been mentioned a few times before about the Japanese boxes. Yes, it's just the creditless openings and endings that FUNimation used that contain more footage than the credit-filled ones, for whatever reason. I believe this is also the case for the creditless versions that were included as extras on the Japanese boxes. I don't know whether it was Toei who zoomed it in during the original animation process, or a result of the new framing in the remastering done for the Dragon Boxes, but it would make a lot of sense for the raw, blank versions to have originally been much larger than the episode-specific versions.

I have seen VHS recordings of Japanese TV airings that were definitely less zoomed in than FUNimation's original DVD singles, but I can't say how the framing on those compares to the Dragon Box framing. What I do know is that the openings and endings aren't the only things with this issue, since I'm sure we've all seen examples of the slight extra material on the sides that was exclusive to the season sets. Obviously not everything on the film reels made it into the Dragon Box masters, and possibly not even the original broadcast masters, either.
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Post by G1Ravage » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:30 pm

Gotcha. Thanks for the answers, everyone!

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Post by OutlawTorn » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:45 pm

SHINOBI-03 wrote:Best parts from the review:
The English dub track is, frankly, a relic of the past, and is often inaccurate in both word and tone. It may hold nostalgia value for the people who grew up listening to Goku's various stiff, generic tough guy voices and over-the-top morality speeches on television (which is a lot of people, to be fair), but it tends to gloss over some of the nuances of the Japanese version. Masako Nozawa's performance as our hero in orange captures a bit more of his personality, where Sean Schemmel's seems to go more for a voice that fits the body type. A lot of subpar scripting and awkwardly inserted jokes makes the antiquated English dub seem more than a little cheeseball.
This was, perhaps, the only part I took exception to. Like or dislike the dub to your heart's content, but to call it a relic of the past is just a bit harsh, I think. By no means is it "perfect" in being a word for word adaptation of the original and changed a few too many things around but, like it or not, it is a version of Dragon Ball Z. Thankfully the Dragon Box presents the original as it was meant to be.

I'm also not sure if it referred to the type of dub Dragon Ball Z had received or the fact that it was dubbed at all. I certainly hope it wasn't the latter as dubs aren't an evil thing and even the Japanese have added in jokes or changed things which completely altered the intended meaning of a scene of character. Of course, it was second hand information many years ago from Usenet, so your mileage may vary.

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Post by penguintruth » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:54 pm

I was expressing that, simply put, the DBZ dub is not up to par with even the average anime dub. It's akin to the dubs of old that the studios didn't bother doing either a very accurate or well-acted product, and often reversioned it almost entirety, which is what I would call the DBZ dub, even in its newer incarnations.

If you tried to do a dub like DBZ's with another program, you would have a hard time selling it to the modern anime fan who isn't pleased just to get a dub at all. They have expectations. It may have sailed back in the early to mid nineties, but even by those standards there were plenty of better dubs, even from worse studios.

Funimation has grown not just in power, but in talent. It's inexcusable to continue using an English dub that not only looks bad in comparison to their other dubs, but actually casts some doubt on their ability to produce a quality dub, even to this day. Because of this, Funimation can go onto doing the greatest English dubs ever, but they'll always be known as the studio that screwed up DBZ, and I think they're probably better than that.

They owe it to themselves to distance themselves from that dub.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Post by VegettoEX » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:05 pm

OutlawTorn wrote:Like or dislike the dub to your heart's content, but to call it a relic of the past is just a bit harsh, I think.
Liking it or not has nothing to do with the absolute fact that the style of dubbing and general treatment that FUNimation gave the series is *not* the same as what they do today with each and every single other property.

In that respect, yes, it's a "relic" of the "past".
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Post by DBZfan29 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:17 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
OutlawTorn wrote:Like or dislike the dub to your heart's content, but to call it a relic of the past is just a bit harsh, I think.
Liking it or not has nothing to do with the absolute fact that the style of dubbing and general treatment that FUNimation gave the series is *not* the same as what they do today with each and every single other property.

In that respect, yes, it's a "relic" of the "past".
I think he just means that people actually watch the dub still. I mean, you can tell they do by all the harsh comments toward the Dragon Box because of the exclusion of Faulconer's track.
An interviewer asks, "The soundtrack in Sonic 3 has become legendary. Is it true that you worked with Michael Jackson on it?" Takashi Iizuka kills all of our hopes and dreams by replying, "You know, those are just rumors, and SEGA does not want to say anything about them. So they will forever be just rumors..." WHY!?

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Post by Kendamu » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:22 pm

DBZfan29 wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:
OutlawTorn wrote:Like or dislike the dub to your heart's content, but to call it a relic of the past is just a bit harsh, I think.
Liking it or not has nothing to do with the absolute fact that the style of dubbing and general treatment that FUNimation gave the series is *not* the same as what they do today with each and every single other property.

In that respect, yes, it's a "relic" of the "past".
I think he just means that people actually watch the dub still. I mean, you can tell they do by all the harsh comments toward the Dragon Box because of the exclusion of Faulconer's track.
But... the dub is still on the DBox. It's just on there with the real music exclusively now.

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Post by DBZfan29 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:36 pm

Kendamu wrote:
DBZfan29 wrote:
VegettoEX wrote: Liking it or not has nothing to do with the absolute fact that the style of dubbing and general treatment that FUNimation gave the series is *not* the same as what they do today with each and every single other property.

In that respect, yes, it's a "relic" of the "past".
I think he just means that people actually watch the dub still. I mean, you can tell they do by all the harsh comments toward the Dragon Box because of the exclusion of Faulconer's track.
But... the dub is still on the DBox. It's just on there with the real music exclusively now.
That's what I said. I meant that there are still dub viewers because of all the negative comments.
An interviewer asks, "The soundtrack in Sonic 3 has become legendary. Is it true that you worked with Michael Jackson on it?" Takashi Iizuka kills all of our hopes and dreams by replying, "You know, those are just rumors, and SEGA does not want to say anything about them. So they will forever be just rumors..." WHY!?

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