Dragon Ball GT

[Raki]

GT could've been a great continuation to the Dragon Ball Z series. The problem was that it wasn't executed well, for reasons aforementioned.

But it's not and never really was intended to be.

How do you know what TOEI intended it to be?

As far as we know, it was meant to capitalize on the success of Dragonball/Z, which was still popular at the time.

[Blade]

To me Dragonball GT is merely a myriad of missed opportunities. Taking the plot out of Toriyama's hands was never necessarily a bad thing, as the Dragonball Universe presents so much imaginative possibility that there are numerous great plots which could have brought to life by a good writing staff, and being completely honest here, GT really does contains some fantastic ideas on paper.

Although, therein lays the rub - as good as these things may sound on paper, the reality never quite matches up with very few episodes truly executing the plot in an exciting and engaging way. And that’s just GT all over, touching on some really great and imaginative ideas but completely failing to bring them to life in the way which we are accustomed to as fans of Toriyama’s plots in Dragonball and Dragonball Z.

Let me illustrate my point with an example, take Baby for instance. Here is a character with some really nifty designs, a dramatic premise and a fantastic introduction to the plot (For me Episode 27 of GT is an extremely spectacular and exciting way to kick off the Baby saga). Ultimately, though, the storyline never pulls itself into fifth gear and is let down by stunted plot growth, generic conclusions to stories and numerous annoying and bewildering inconsistencies.

And for me, this isn’t even the apex of GT’s failings, that great accolade is taken by the fact that there is very little character development and the scripts are very monophonic in that they only seem to focus on Goku. It pains me greatly as a fan that the script only attends to other characters when the plot is quickly trying to call upon them in a given script (for example, Vegeta's ascension to Super Saiyan 4, virtually ignored throughout the entire series apart from as being host to Baby he suddenly gets a whole episode to go over the pride-filled-Saiyan-Prince-diatribe which we generally associate with him from Dragonball Z and has been practically absent over the rest of the series).

As if this wasn’t enough, the writers chose to dangle possibilities of where certain stories would go only to go for the generic conclusion at the last moment. An example of said annoyance can be found during the fight with Baby. With Goku having rid all of his comrades from Baby's control, Goten and Trunks prepare to perform fusion, only for Goku to stop them, asking for their energy so that he can continue the fight on his own. Forgive my strange simile, but it’s like the ultimate cock-block in the eyes of the fandom – was Toei really blind to how lame this was? Did they really think the fans would appreciate this?

It seems that when fighting every major villain in GT, the role of everyone else apart from Goku (and Vegeta at the very end) is to momentarily go Super Saiyan, fire a few energy blasts and then get swept to the floor in a speedy fashion (with a nice little musical jingle to accompany the fun). For characters like Gohan, Trunks, Goten and Uub (who at the end of Toriyama's manga was billed as being the future saviour of Earth) GT merely uses them as also-ran weaklings who count for very little and only deserve screen time when serving to prove the strength of an unbeatable opponent. While one could draw comparisons with the combat-diminished roles of Yamucha, Tien, Piccolo, Kuririn and Chaozu at the end of Dragonball Z, I find that GT is unforgivable in this regard as instead of replacing older characters in favour of newer ones it merely just picks up the archetypal idea of a single lead character in Goku and never really looks back on that philosophy.

And unfortunately, that is why GT failed. And it did, primarily, fail in practically all aspects. The viewing figures didn’t warrant further production, the fandom disliked it, Toriyama disliked it and it failed to capitalise on numerous golden opportunities to continue the Dragonball story far beyond the manga in its commercial heyday. I mean, take a look around. If you visited Japan today you would see that the “Dragonball Z” brand is still alive and well. Merchandise sales are still high and the brand remains in the public lexicon despite being aged by well over a decade. If you are looking for Dragonball GT, however, you would find very little to show for it. The lasting legacy which the series commands is quite diminished practically everywhere you look, and I don’t think it’s any mere coincidence by any stretch of the imagination.

In my opinion, the best thing which Dragonball GT has to offer the Dragonball franchise on the whole is its theme music, which itself owes credit to Field of View for writing it, and for an anime, that says a lot.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Toriyama disliked it

I don't remember ever reading anything like this... I mean, it could well be true, seeing as how he is nice about pretty much anything anyone does with the franchise, but I don't think he's ever actually stated he dislikes it.

[Blade]

Toriyama disliked it

I don't remember ever reading anything like this... I mean, it could well be true, seeing as how he is nice about pretty much anything anyone does with the franchise, but I don't think he's ever actually stated he dislikes it.

I take the fact that Dragonball Online, a project which Toriyama has overseen for the past five years, pretty much ignores the fact that GT ever existed serves as proof enough that he doesn't really like what Toei did with his characters.

[Rocketman]

It seems that when fighting every major villain in GT, the role of everyone else apart from Goku (and Vegeta at the very end) is to momentarily go Super Saiyan, fire a few energy blasts and then get swept to the floor in a speedy fashion (with a nice little musical jingle to accompany the fun). For characters like Gohan, Trunks, Goten and Uub (who at the end of Toriyama's manga was billed as being the future saviour of Earth) GT merely uses them as also-ran weaklings who count for very little and only deserve screen time when serving to prove the strength of an unbeatable opponent.

The thing is that that is mostly accurate. Goku's SS3 (then later on SS4) means that anything that can challenge him will absolutely destroy the characters restricted to SS1/2 (since there's no difference between them in GT). Uub is the only possible exception, as it's entirely believable that he'd have Kid Buu's power (although AFAIK all he's shown as having in GT is strength equal to base Goku - still impressive for a pure human).

Toei themselves realized this, so they shrank him down...and then they repower him, so it's back where it started.

[Blade]

It seems that when fighting every major villain in GT, the role of everyone else apart from Goku (and Vegeta at the very end) is to momentarily go Super Saiyan, fire a few energy blasts and then get swept to the floor in a speedy fashion (with a nice little musical jingle to accompany the fun). For characters like Gohan, Trunks, Goten and Uub (who at the end of Toriyama's manga was billed as being the future saviour of Earth) GT merely uses them as also-ran weaklings who count for very little and only deserve screen time when serving to prove the strength of an unbeatable opponent.

The thing is that that is mostly accurate. Goku's SS3 (then later on SS4) means that anything that can challenge him will absolutely destroy the characters restricted to SS1/2 (since there's no difference between them in GT). Uub is the only possible exception, as it's entirely believable that he'd have Kid Buu's power (although AFAIK all he's shown as having in GT is strength equal to base Goku - still impressive for a pure human).

Toei themselves realized this, so they shrank him down...and then they repower him, so it's back where it started.

In context to the scripts that Toei used it may be an accurate depiction but that isn't really what I was getting at, my criticisms were more orientated towards the fact that the scripts neglected the development of those characters in favour of just calling upon them now and again to pad out the plot. Why couldn't we have seen an extension of Gohan's power up from the Elder Kai? Why couldn't we have seen Gotenks achieve new levels of power? Why couldn't the plot have involved Uub more? None of these avenues would have been outlandish to persue in any way, shape or form.

[Rocketman]

Why couldn't we have seen an extension of Gohan's power up from the Elder Kai?

Because Mystic Gohan was so far beyond everybody else, if he was in GT, it'd be the same show, just with Gohan instead of Goku.

And Elder Kai's powerup unlocked all of Gohan's hidden powers. He has nothing else left to uncover.

Why couldn't we have seen Gotenks achieve new levels of power?

Gotenks already has SS3, what're you talking about? In any case I hate Gotenks, but I still think it was a dick move how they shut him out. Even Goku saying "No, I want to fight him myself" is better (and accurate to the character), but they could've done things like Baby attacking them before they can fuse, or them messing up the fusion cause they haven't done it in twenty years so they're stuck as Fatty for thirty minutes.

Why couldn't the plot have involved Uub more?

That I agree with in the latter part of GT. I don't mind his role in the Baby Saga.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Yeah, actually, I didn't tjhink so before I thought about it just now, but Uub's part in Baby saga wasn't too bad (although his fight should have lasted a lot longer than just some thrown energy blasts and a beam struggle after he merged. But after that, it should have become a learning experience for Uub, as his first real battle, something he could have grown from. In the end, even #18 proved more useful in the series.

[Raki]

Toriyama disliked it

I don't remember ever reading anything like this... I mean, it could well be true, seeing as how he is nice about pretty much anything anyone does with the franchise, but I don't think he's ever actually stated he dislikes it.

He sees it as a side story.

[johnboy1]

I take the fact that Dragonball Online, a project which Toriyama has overseen for the past five years, pretty much ignores the fact that GT ever existed serves as proof enough that he doesn't really like what Toei did with his characters.

Toriyama has gone on record saying that he enjoyed GT. As for why DBO ignores GT (or will ignore it, assuming it ever fucking comes out), I don't know. Considering that Toriyama is ignoring filler as well, it may be that he doesn't want to be encumbered by other people's work. It's a sentiment similar to George Lucas and Star Wars. GL holds nothing against the Star Wars novels and comics. However, he rarely, if ever, incorporated items from the Expanded Universe into the movies, because he felt that it wasn't "his" story.

I see this as somewhat lazy, myself, but I can understand where the sentiment comes from. As a fanfic writer, it's a pain in the ass to try and write stories about a franchise that is constantly growing while trying to avoid contradictions.

[goku the krump dancer]

If you think about it, Toei still kinda went in Toriyama's path. Because, remember at the end of Z, Goten, Trunks, or Gohan didnt train at all (for 10 years!!!). Then 5 or 10 years later in GT they still weren't training, so that's 15 to 20 years without training. So it's no wonder why they couldn't make Super 17 budge. The only thing about that is that Vegeta couldn't make him move either. WTF is up with that?

[TheGreatness25]

That's what I've been saying for a while. People complain about how GT made Gohan look, how Vegeta was portrayed in GT, Trunks and Goten. But look at the last episodes of DBZ. Gohan is exactly the same in GT as in those episodes. Vegeta is the same (leather jacket look, etc) but with a haircut, and Goten and Trunks were more interested in girls than fighting it seemed and that carried on into GT. It's not like they were completely uninterested in fighting, but they were "teenagers" (if you wanna call them that).

[Duo]

I dislike the fact Goku's pants went from green to yellow between the end of Z to the start of GT. That totally ruined the series for me ;)

[TheGreatness25]

I dislike the fact Goku's pants went from green to yellow between the end of Z to the start of GT. That totally ruined the series for me

lol That and his pink wristbands. That's so irritating to me. Why would he have pink wristbands?

[Duo]

I dislike the fact Goku's pants went from green to yellow between the end of Z to the start of GT. That totally ruined the series for me

lol That and his pink wristbands. That's so irritating to me. Why would he have pink wristbands?

Orange wristbands were way better, but I think my favorite Goku outfit will always be the alternate from Burst Limit in which he has the same color scheme as Vegetto. It works so well on him.

I really didn't like Trunks GT outfit either. But I guess not everyone is going to be like Goku and wear a Gi all the time.

[TheGreatness25]

But Future Trunks didn't wear a gi and he was fine. In GT he wears a long-sleeved shirt, a scarf, and shorts. Huh?

[TripleRach]

GT's portrayal of Gohan and Goten didn't bother me, because yeah, they were supposed to be lazy and useless at that point. Same with Trunks, although I disliked his personality swap. Vegeta probably shouldn't have been as hung up on his Gokuu rivalry anymore, but the new manga ending kind of retconned that, so ehh.

That being said, the adult Gotenks tease in the Baby arc was like a bad kick to the face. "Hey, let's use Fusion!" "Nah, don't bother. You'd still be worthless."

My real problem is with Pan and Uub. Pan was introduced as a very promising young fighter in Z who could potentially suck less than Gohan or Goten, but in GT, she turned into someone who's biggest contribution to the story was crying. And Uub was supposed to be trained to become Gokuu's successor, but he ended up being more worthless than Pan, and was barely even used at all.

I mean, sure, most story arcs in the overall Dragon Ball series usually end up with everyone else getting beaten up until Gokuu shows up to save the day, and Gokuu is even my favorite character. But his character peaked with the Freeza battle, and his story really should have ended when he passed the torch to Gohan and sacrificed himself at the Cell Game. He really shouldn't have come back during the Buu arc, but I like that Toriyama at least ended the story with two new potential successors for Gokuu to train. Then GT came along to ignore that and focus even more on Gokuu. It was just overkill at that point, and hurt everyone's character.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta probably shouldn't have been as hung up on his Gokuu rivalry anymore, but the new manga ending kind of retconned that, so ehh.

Was Vegeta hung up on the rivalry? I seem to remember him thinking something like "I don't care about surpassing Kakarot anymore, I just want to know my own limits" in the episode where Bulma tells him she can help make him a SS4.

[JulieYBM]

Vegeta probably shouldn't have been as hung up on his Gokuu rivalry anymore, but the new manga ending kind of retconned that, so ehh.

Was Vegeta hung up on the rivalry? I seem to remember him thinking something like "I don't care about surpassing Kakarot anymore, I just want to know my own limits" in the episode where Bulma tells him she can help make him a SS4.

Yeah, he got over the rivalry thing. He was, after all, the one to suggest fusion.

[Blade]

Why couldn't we have seen an extension of Gohan's power up from the Elder Kai?

Because Mystic Gohan was so far beyond everybody else, if he was in GT, it'd be the same show, just with Gohan instead of Goku.

And Elder Kai's powerup unlocked all of Gohan's hidden powers. He has nothing else left to uncover.

Why couldn't we have seen Gotenks achieve new levels of power?

Gotenks already has SS3, what're you talking about? In any case I hate Gotenks, but I still think it was a dick move how they shut him out. Even Goku saying "No, I want to fight him myself" is better (and accurate to the character), but they could've done things like Baby attacking them before they can fuse, or them messing up the fusion cause they haven't done it in twenty years so they're stuck as Fatty for thirty minutes.

Why couldn't the plot have involved Uub more?

That I agree with in the latter part of GT. I don't mind his role in the Baby Saga.

Wait, so you are saying that at the end of Z there was simply no plausible and interesting plots which could have seen any characters apart from Goku reach new levels of strengh and power? I mean, that's a really unimaginative position to take, and it's exactly that lack of interest in the "supporting characters" which makes the majority of the writing for GT utterly lackluster in comparison to the previous sagas.

Toriyama has gone on record saying that he enjoyed GT. As for why DBO ignores GT (or will ignore it, assuming it ever fucking comes out), I don't know. Considering that Toriyama is ignoring filler as well, it may be that he doesn't want to be encumbered by other people's work. It's a sentiment similar to George Lucas and Star Wars. GL holds nothing against the Star Wars novels and comics. However, he rarely, if ever, incorporated items from the Expanded Universe into the movies, because he felt that it wasn't "his" story.

DBO has already been released as an open beta. If you are feeling intrepid and fraudulent enough there are certain websites which host the full installation client and house instructions as to how to participate in the open beta and play the game for free. Unless of course you have a Korean social security number, in which case you're fully entitled to play it legally.

The main plot of DBO involves time-travel quests allowing the player to re-live defining moments of Dragonball, there isn't even a single reference to any of the events in GT, let alone a playable story-arc from it.