Vegeta's dubbed death speech more accurate than we think?

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Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:22 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
No offense, but I don't see that.

Dub: He made me what I am today and I totally cared about my father.

VS.

Sub: He used us, made light of our entire race, and insulted us as a whole.
None taken. Its not 100% but the idea still is the same. Here, this is from the previous page.

JPN:
Vegeta: Freeza did it! This after we Saiyans... served as his hands and feet... working as he ordered...! Everyone besides us was killed...! Your father... and my father, the king, as well...! Freeza... was afraid that as the Saiyans gathered strength... a Super Saiyan would be born among us...

ENG:
Vegeta: No... listen! You have to hear this! We worked so hard for him. We did everything he asked of us and more. He took me... from my father... when I was just a little boy! He made me do whatever he wanted, and said he'd kill my father if I didn't! I did everything he asked, but he killed him anyway... along with everyone else. He was scared of us. Scared that a Super Saiyan would be born someday... and rise up to overthrow him


Off topic
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Not in original but I liked it.

Not a big fan of the whole "he took me away from my father bit" but when you put it into perspective any child(Regardless of species or race) would feel a deep pain from being taken away from his parents. There is nothing in Dragonball that tells you what happened to Vegeta as a kid but even with the Bardock special in mind its clear that he was cut off from his father and to a young boy that can be pretty heart breaking. Though speaking of the Bardock special, that is the only time we see Vegeta in his youth and it DOES show that he enjoyed the fighting so the whole "he made me fight" thing is kind of bull shit.

Funimation could have done without out that silly little bit but the rest of that line pretty much stayed in context.
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Post by penguintruth » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:35 pm

The "off-topic" bit ruins the whole English version scripting of that scene, no matter how much the rest of it stays vaguely similar.

Not to mention the bit after Vegeta dies and Goku buries him. Goku has admitted he is a Saiyan in the past, mind you, but most of the time he denies it. This was the first time it had any conviction to it.

If anything, Vegeta's death scene says more about Goku than it does about Vegeta.
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Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:58 pm

penguintruth wrote:The "off-topic" bit ruins the whole English version scripting of that scene, no matter how much the rest of it stays vaguely similar.

Not to mention the bit after Vegeta dies and Goku buries him. Goku has admitted he is a Saiyan in the past, mind you, but most of the time he denies it. This was the first time it had any conviction to it.

If anything, Vegeta's death scene says more about Goku than it does about Vegeta.
Oh, there is no arguing about what Goku says after Vegeta is buried. His lines were way off from the original. That was an important scene for Goku, the whole set up was for him to accept his past and Funimation dropped the ball with his lines.

Was there ever any changes with the updated version of the Freeza saga? I know Funimation went back and redid some lines, but did the writers ever go back to fix the script?
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Post by Big Momma » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:56 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: Was there ever any changes with the updated version of the Freeza saga? I know Funimation went back and redid some lines, but did the writers ever go back to fix the script?
Nope, just watched the ep. on my Orange Brick yesterday, and it's basically the same.
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Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:38 pm

penguintruth wrote:The "off-topic" bit ruins the whole English version scripting of that scene, no matter how much the rest of it stays vaguely similar.

Not to mention the bit after Vegeta dies and Goku buries him. Goku has admitted he is a Saiyan in the past, mind you, but most of the time he denies it. This was the first time it had any conviction to it.

If anything, Vegeta's death scene says more about Goku than it does about Vegeta.
Pretty much this. People really need to stop giving FUNimation a gold star every time they get a line or two kind of right. All it really does is show how completely assinine all of their changes were and how easier it would have been to simply translate the script.

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Post by Khalid Shahin » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:43 pm

Didn't they simply take the script from Ocean Dub and slightly alter it? Or was it the other way around? Similar scripts have been shown between Funimation and Ocean Dub during the Cell reenactment during the tournament before the Buu saga, when it goes "Waves on Rocks". It's not proof, but I could've sworn I read somewhere that Ocean Dub does the translating.

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Post by KaiserNeko » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:44 pm

Khalid Shahin wrote:Didn't they simply take the script from Ocean Dub and slightly alter it? Or was it the other way around? Similar scripts have been shown between Funimation and Ocean Dub during the Cell reenactment during the tournament before the Buu saga, when it goes "Waves on Rocks". It's not proof, but I could've sworn I read somewhere that Ocean Dub does the translating.
Ocean is the one who copied FUNimation's scripts for the later episodes... they had to of, Ocean didn't re-start dubbing DBZ again until FUNi was nearly DONE.
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Post by Khalid Shahin » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:55 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Khalid Shahin wrote:Didn't they simply take the script from Ocean Dub and slightly alter it? Or was it the other way around? Similar scripts have been shown between Funimation and Ocean Dub during the Cell reenactment during the tournament before the Buu saga, when it goes "Waves on Rocks". It's not proof, but I could've sworn I read somewhere that Ocean Dub does the translating.
Ocean is the one who copied FUNimation's scripts for the later episodes... they had to of, Ocean didn't re-start dubbing DBZ again until FUNi was nearly DONE.
That's right, Ocean didn't start redubbing until later. Ocean using Funimation's script makes a lot more sense. I was thinking that Ocean Group continued translating and didn't get to dub until later. But I still don't understand why Ocean Group didn't dub episodes 54-107, and dubbed 108-276, even though Funimation was nearly done. Ocean Group did it as an "International" DBZ, but was it because they didn't have the rights of Funimation's Dub after 108?

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Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:48 pm

Big Momma wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: Was there ever any changes with the updated version of the Freeza saga? I know Funimation went back and redid some lines, but did the writers ever go back to fix the script?
Nope, just watched the ep. on my Orange Brick yesterday, and it's basically the same.
Man that sucks, oh well. :?
Pretty much this. People really need to stop giving FUNimation a gold star every time they get a line or two kind of right. All it really does is show how completely assinine all of their changes were and how easier it would have been to simply translate the script.
I'm not giving them a gold star, far from it in fact. I'm just saying they got the job done(a D if you will). I started watching the Freeza saga again thanks to this thread(and my friends orange brick) and with out a doubt it's Funimation weakest performance in all of Dragonball and anime in general.

I'd like to see them attempt to re-write the script for the next Dragonbox box but I'm sure re-writing Dragonball(again) is the farthest thing from Funimation's mind. It's a shame too, now that they have better writers and now that they actors have their characters down pat and re-done version of the show would defiantly be worth a gold star. However that's not going to happen(unless Kai comes to North America) so for now I'm sticking with my D for the Freeza Saga.
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Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:56 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I'm not giving them a gold star, far from it in fact. I'm just saying they got the job done(a D if you will). I started watching the Freeza saga again thanks to this thread(and my friends orange brick) and with out a doubt it's Funimation weakest performance in all of Dragonball and anime in general.
I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was just voicing my slight annoyance at how some dub fans who defend the dub will say that, "the translation's not that bad!" When someone counters their arguments with example after example that torpedos that point, said dub fan often references a line or scene that potrays them (quasi) close to the Japanese counterpart.

I find that logic assinine because:

1) A few instances where the dub is dead on/a little bit right don't make up for the countless errors and dumbing down the series went through. Just because you have one scene where Goku is potrayed as his proper happy go lucky, only cares about fighting self doesn't make Goku's super heroesque potrayal any less dumb and uninspired, and it certainly doesn't magically make FUNi Goku accurate.

2) As I said before, when the FUNi dub decides to actually try and be accurate, all they are doing is putting a great big spot light on how different the two portrayals are and creates internal continuity errors that weren't there in the Japanese version. Vegeta's death for instance, its artificially created death confession about Freeza making him a monster gives indication that he is a changed man. What happens when he is ressurected? He laughs at the reborn Nameks for missing the ones Vegeta murdered and then goes on to beat the shit out of Gohan. Yeah, he's a changed man, alright! :roll: Its a fact that had said dialogue not been fucked with, there would be no continuity error (thats what filler is for! :wink: ).

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Post by Teclo » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:46 pm

Vegeta's "pride" as a Saiyan is merely a conduit created by Vegeta to give himself even more of an ego in some form of douche bag feedback loop.

Vegeta's Saiyan pride is just a drawn out way of saying Vegeta's Vegeta pride.
When someone is proud of their own race, it's based on their upbringing in that race or culture. When Britain owned the largest empire ever, many British people would be proud of their country for educating all those savages, and bringing civilisation to all those poor, savage countries. Much like how a lot of modern Americans are proud of bringing democracy to a country or for their country fighting for freedom. Thing is, the virtue of those deeds only seemed virtuous in that culture, in that time, to those people. People in other cultures, including "subcultures" within the US itself, see America's "gift of democracy" more like a thinly veiled invasion for oil, not fighting for liberty. Britain just wanted loads of land and natural resources and, believing they were superior to all other countries, genuinely thought poorer countries were benefiting from British rule (and, in some ways, they did - but they still lost their freedom in other ways).

I see it like that with Vegeta, he's like some far-right American, a the kind of guy who - and I've actually seen this - airbrushes the faces of the Bush administration onto his SUV. He's a real hawk, a patriot with a capital P, and his own - in my culture's opinion - assholeishness is, to him, this great belief in the American Way, and a desire to bring the FUCK YEAH AMERICA to all those poor countries around the world that have yet to experience Coors Light and the Super Bowl. So his personality, his way, are the same thing as his nation's way. Vegeta likes subjugating weak races because Saiyans like subjugating weak races; Vegeta excels at what his nation believes one should excel at. His pride in his people is the same as his pride in himself - in fact, being almost offensively self-assured is a trait admired by Saiyans.

When his surroundings, his culture and his peers, change for long enough - when he becomes immersed in a different set of values for long enough - he does indeed change his outlook and what he's proud of. He is proud of his son and he gets "weak human emotions" and after a slight hiccup with that Majin stuff (OK, so he killed loads of innocent people...) he even grows to be proud of Goku, as a fellow Saiyan.

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Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:58 am

I was talking about this thread with a few of my friends last night and one of them brought up an interesting point about the whole "he made me what I am" line. She basically said this line still holds some value in the speech because after the Freeza saga, though he was still a proud asshole, he stopped killing people. Right after the Freeza Saga and the disappearance of Goku, Vegeta had the perfect opportunity to destroy/enslave/ take over earth because he was the strongest at the time. However, he didn't because well with Freeza out of the picture there was no incentive to do these things. Also, though he was pissy about it and only stuck around in the background, he hung out with the very same people he tried to kill just a few years earlier. He also managed to settle down to have a kid(well two actually).

I thought that was a very interesting point to bring to this thread. Well off to class. :D
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Post by Gogeta 00 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:42 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:I was talking about this thread with a few of my friends last night and one of them brought up an interesting point about the whole "he made me what I am" line. She basically said this line still holds some value in the speech because after the Freeza saga, though he was still a proud asshole, he stopped killing people. Right after the Freeza Saga and the disappearance of Goku, Vegeta had the perfect opportunity to destroy/enslave/ take over earth because he was the strongest at the time. However, he didn't because well with Freeza out of the picture there was no incentive to do these things. Also, though he was pissy about it and only stuck around in the background, he hung out with the very same people he tried to kill just a few years earlier. He also managed to settle down to have a kid(well two actually).

I thought that was a very interesting point to bring to this thread. Well off to class. :D
That isn't really the issue at in this line though. The main issue is that Freeza didn't make Vegeta a cold-hearted murderer, he was born that way as a Saiya-Jin, and regardless of Freeza's influence, he would have grown up the same way. Yes Vegeta eventually changed, but when he was killed and when he was revived his personality was the same.

I would also argue that Vegeta chose not to destroy the world because Goku survived, not because Freeza died. He wanted to see the legendary super Saiya-Jin with his own eyes. Becoming a super Saiya-Jin was a far higher priority for Vegeta then destroying the human race. I highly doubt that the reason Vegeta didn't attempt to destroy the earth was because Freeza wasn't around anymore.
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Post by Krazy Monkey » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:54 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:Pretty much this. People really need to stop giving FUNimation a gold star every time they get a line or two kind of right. All it really does is show how completely assinine all of their changes were and how easier it would have been to simply translate the script.
You want to know what else is asinine? The fact that there are so many people who constantly nitpick and complain over every little thing in the dub that's different from the Japanese version in even the slightest.

As it's already been pointed out in this topic, the words during Vegeta's death scene weren't that inaccurate; the things that he told Goku ACTUALLY happened in BOTH versions. Yes, I know... It apparently contradicts later events, where Vegeta went back to his evil ways as soon as he and everyone else got warped from Namek to Earth, as well as the Majin Buu saga, where he apparently enjoyed being evil, even without Frieza. However, I think it could be argued that Vegeta used that "he made me what I am" line to manipulate Goku's emotions, since he considered him to be too soft hearted, and wanted to give him the right motivation to destroy Frieza. This could also be supported by the fact that Vegeta stated that Goku "served his purpose" during the scene where he celebrated his and Frieza's supposed deaths, which implies that he was only using him.
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Post by penguintruth » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:59 pm

The dialogue still misses the effing point of the scene in the dub. Like I said, Vegeta's death scene isn't about Vegeta's death. We knew Vegeta was going to die. It's about Goku embracing his Saiyan heritage, if only tenuously.
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Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:40 pm

penguintruth wrote:The dialogue still misses the effing point of the scene in the dub. Like I said, Vegeta's death scene isn't about Vegeta's death. We knew Vegeta was going to die. It's about Goku embracing his Saiyan heritage, if only tenuously.
Yeah I know. My friend just brought up a good point and I wanted to bring it to the thread.
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Post by laserkid » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:39 pm

Ultimately, this is just proof people don't pay attention to grammar.

Even if a part of a sentance is written the same, it can have an entirely different meaning.

For a classic example:

It is cloudy outside, so it is raining.

It is raining outside, so it is cloudy.

Sure, each sentance talks about something similar and has similar wording but the meaning of each sentance is different.

So what if they got part of the line right, if they changed the overall meaning by adding or changing things around?
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Post by Big Momma » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:58 pm

laserkid wrote: So what if they got part of the line right, if they changed the overall meaning by adding or changing things around?
The point of this thread isn't to show that the speech was correct. It was to show that it just wasn't as far off as some people say...which it isn't.


Still very far off, just not as extreme as a lot of people say, IMO.
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Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:30 pm

laserkid wrote:Ultimately, this is just proof people don't pay attention to grammar.

Even if a part of a sentance is written the same, it can have an entirely different meaning.

For a classic example:

It is cloudy outside, so it is raining.

It is raining outside, so it is cloudy.

Sure, each sentance talks about something similar and has similar wording but the meaning of each sentance is different.

So what if they got part of the line right, if they changed the overall meaning by adding or changing things around?
Dealing with the snippet I used above(because I don't want to go through the whole speech again, let someone else do that) there really isn't that much of a difference when it comes to the gramatical side of things.

Example

Japanese:
we Saiyans... served as his hands and feet... working as he ordered...!

English:
We worked so hard for him.

They are saying the same thing. Sure the Japanese one has more detail but I think the simplification in writing has to do with the lip syncing in English.
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Post by Super Sonic » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:36 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:

They are saying the same thing. Sure the Japanese one has more detail but I think the simplification in writing has to do with the lip syncing in English.
While it may or may not be the case, that is the reason why most dubbed anime can't be 100% faithful to the original Japanese dialogue. WHile the Speed Racer effect enhanced Speed Racer, it would look just plain silly on Dragon Ball.

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