Vegeta's dubbed death speech more accurate than we think?

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Vegeta's dubbed death speech more accurate than we think?

Post by NeptuneKai » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:29 pm

Most of us are aware of the highly infamous dub speech Vegeta gives before dying. Many people find it out of character for Vegeta to be saying such things and are angry that this story is unique only to Funi’s script. However is it really inaccurate?

A filler scene in episode 78 of Dragonball Z depicts King Vegeta handing over his son to Freeza. True we never had a glimpse of Vegeta’s personality before this point but it calls into question if he would of been different had he not been forced into Freeza’s top ranks so quickly. Is Vegeta’s death speech in the dub truly as inaccurate as we all think? According to the anime Freeza did indeed take Vegeta away from his father as a small child and we can only assume he forced him to kill and fight tough enemies at a young age. We see a Vegeta that looks to be around 8 killing Saibamen in a training room during the Bardock Special. Take into account they only trusted “Kakarotto” with enemies who merely possessed a power level of 5. Vegeta does have the blood of a Saiyajin meaning he is naturally ruthless but we see him killing comrades without a moments hesitation which brings into question if he was truly more cold hearted then the other Saiyajins we have seen. Is this particular hard apathetic attitude thanks to Freeza's influence?

By no means can I truly call this dialogue 100% accurate because it does completely ignore the original script but I merely bring into question is it truly as farfetched as we think it is? Can we really blame the dub writers for adding dialogue like this? Sure they weren't following the Japanese script but making reference to a huge glimpse into Vegeta’s childhood from the anime does seemed called for during this moment.
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Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:37 pm

Just from looking at the scene without thinking of any dialogue, dub or sub, I would say it was trying to imply that Vegeta was sort of a tortured soul revealing his past. The dub just tends to go overboard with things. The same thing happened when Trunks died. The dub had the right idea, they just went kinda overboard. And I also agree with you on Vegeta being more cold-hearted than other Saiyans. Bardock, for example, would probably just stop caring for a comrade after he got his ass kicked, rather than just killing him like Vegeta would.

Oh, and Vegeta was 4 in Bardock: The Father Of Goku.
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Post by Sprite Satan » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:38 pm

I do not believe that the character of Vegeta would have been fundamentally changed if he was never taken under Freeza's wing.

There's not much I can say really. I don't buy the "Wah Freeza stole me away when I was a widdle boy and made me evil" thing they gave Vegeta in the dub, at all.

Vegeta is a greedy maniacal cock who also happens to be a member of a race of space assholes. I don't believe the Saiyans were ever an honourable fighting race, I don't believe King Vegeta would have showered his son with love and cuddles and I don't believe Vegeta would have grown up to be some regal, but un-assholeish Prince in Freeza's absence.

Would there be differences in personality? Sure. But I wouldn't think they'd be anything too drastic. Vegeta doesn't care the Saiyans were all killed anyway. I'm not going to assume he was lying every time he said this and every time he showed a lack of expression or interest in the matter.
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Post by Captain Awesome » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:38 pm

I think you're giving them too much credit.

Vegeta's awful death speech in the dub was part of a constant and deliberate attempt by FUNimation to whitewash the Saiya-jin from ruthless bloodthirsty space barbarians into an honour bound, almost noble race of warriors that were simply mislead by a galactic tyrant. I can certainly understand why they did it, after all the dub was tripping over itself trying to turn Vegeta into a good guy as quickly as possible at that stage, but some throwaway filler in the anime doesn't really justify ignoring everything that had been established about Vegeta's character and the Saiya-jin race up to that point just because they want to make things a little more kiddie friendly.

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Post by Chrono Trigger » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:39 pm

What happens in the re-dubbed version might not be right script wise but it's believable. It's not entirely far fetched and impossible.
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Post by nathantheguitarist » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:44 pm

I could look for it on Youtube, but I don't really care enough to see at the moment.

But what about the Ocean English dub? Did they use the same script as Funimation for those episodes? Or is the speech different in some way?

Edit: God dammit, never mind. I just realized it was the Freeza speech, not the Buu one. That's a whole 'nother shitstorm isn't it? ...moving on.
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Post by penguintruth » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:49 pm

For reference:

JP
(Vegeta is dying on Namek)

Vegeta: K-kakarot...
Goku: Vegeta!
Vegeta: Are you... still reciting that soft crap? Are you not a Super Saiyan?!
(Vegeta flashes back to the past, then it comes back to the present)
Vegeta: You foolish scum! Get cold-hearted! If you had only discarded your leniency, you would surely already be... a Super Saiyan!
Goku: I just don't see how I could act as cold-hearted as you do. And as for this Super Saiyan business, I don't know what you mean.
Vegeta: A Super Saiyan is...
(Vegeta flashes back to the past, then it comes back to the present)
Vegeta: Listen well, Kakarot...
Freeza: And here I've pierced his heart. What nerve. Are you going to keep talking?
Vegeta: Your.... our planet of birth, Planet Vegeta... was not destroyed... in a collision with a giant meteor...
Goku: Don't say any more! You're just hastening your death!
Vegeta: Freeza did it! This after we Saiyans... served as his hands and feet... working as he ordered...! Everyone besides us was killed...! Your father... and my father, the king, as well...! Freeza... was afraid that as the Saiyans gathered strength... a Super Saiyan would be born among us...
Freeza: Just listen to you.
Goku: Vegeta!
(Goku notices that Vegeta has been crying.)
Vegeta: I-I beg you! Freeza... defeat Freeza! Please... by your Saiyan hand...

(...)

(Goku buries Vegeta)

Goku: I understand. It wasn't that your fellow Saiyans had been killed that was rough on you. (Looking at Freeza) Having to do as he told you must have been worse than anything you could stand. (Putting Vegeta in the hole he made) I hated you so much... but you had your Saiyan pride. (Goku covers Vegeta up) And now, I, too, will share in some of that pride of yours.
(Goku stands up)
Goku: I am a Saiyan raised on Earth! (to Freeza) For all the Saiyans who were killed by you... as well as for all the Namekians here... I am going to beat you!
Freeza: Such drivel.

ENG
(Vegeta is dying on Namek)

Vegeta: K-kakarot...
Goku: Huh?
Vegeta: Don't be so soft! There's no stinking honor in any of this! It's just a game, played to win, with no rules!
(Vegeta flashes back to the past, then it comes back to the present)
Vegeta: You're going to have to get over your soft-heartedness! Do it! Forget about your feelings! They'll get you killed! They'll get you killed, Kakarot!
Goku: I can't! I can't change who I am. Not on the battlefield. My feelings are my guide. Besides, everyone deserves a chance to change their ways, just like you had.
Vegeta: Fool, you don't know what you're dealing with.
(Vegeta flashes back to the past, then it comes back to the present)
Goku (speaking a line that wasn't there in the original): Save your strength, Vegeta.
Vegeta: No, there's more. He killed our home planet. It... was him.
Freeza: He's just a corpse and he's still blabbing. I'll have to gag him to shut him up.
Vegeta: Your father... and mine... the whole planet. He blew it up! It's true. No one survived... but us. Ask him if you want. He'll tell you, he's... proud of it!
Goku: Please, stop talking, Vegeta! It's sapping all your strength!
Vegeta: No... listen! You have to hear this! We worked so hard for him. We did everything he asked of us and more. He took me... from my father... when I was just a little boy! He made me do whatever he wanted, and said he'd kill my father if I didn't! I did everything he asked, but he killed him anyway... along with everyone else. He was scared of us. Scared that a Super Saiyan would be born someday... and rise up to overthrow him.
Freeza: Ah, a touching story.
Goku: Please... no more. Save your strength.
(Goku notices that Vegeta has been crying.)
Vegeta: Kakarot. Please... destroy... Freeza. He made me what I am. Don't... let him... do it... to anyone else. Whatever it takes... stop him. Please!

(...)

(Goku buries Vegeta)


Goku: I think I understand you now. You weren't grieving over your own death or because our home planet was destroyed. (Looking at Freeza) You were grieving because he turned you into what he wanted you to be. You never had a chance to be anything else. (Putting Vegeta in the hole he made) Well, I still respect you. I know you made a lot of mistakes. But now I see that it wasn't all your fault. You had the firey will of a Saiyan. (Goku covers Vegeta up) Please share that with me now, because I need it. Thank you for saving my friends life, for buying enough time for me to recouperate.
(Goku stands up)
Goku: I'll do my best to carry out your wish. (to Freeza) It's true. Vegeta's right. You have no honor. For him... and for everyone else you've destroyed... I am going to... finish you!
Freeza: We'll see about that, won't we?
The point is, Vegeta does not feel bad about who he is or what he's become. When he's wished back with the Dragon Balls, he goes right back to being a total asshole.

The Saiyans were a brutal, maniacal race of murderers, and he would have ended up the same way, regardless of whether Freeza influenced him at all or not.

I just don't see Vegeta blaming somebody for something he's proud of.
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Post by Super Sonic » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:41 pm

Yeah, they did soften them during season 3. The same was done with the Saiyan king as in the dub they had him talking about "saving the prince" which he doesn't do at all in the original. However they did play him right in the movie 8 flashback as a ruthless tyrant who bluntly orders the execution of a newborn. No softening there thankfully.

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Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:00 pm

Super Sonic wrote:Yeah, they did soften them during season 3. The same was done with the Saiyan king as in the dub they had him talking about "saving the prince" which he doesn't do at all in the original. However they did play him right in the movie 8 flashback as a ruthless tyrant who bluntly orders the execution of a newborn. No softening there thankfully.
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Post by DemonRin » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:18 pm

You know, looking at PenguinTruth's side-by-side of the Japanese and Dub versions of the lines. up until the "He Made me what I am" part, the line was perfect... it was well translated and came out in a good concise way... then they dropped the ball and changed Vegeta's character... uuugh...

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Post by Kingdom Heartless » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:36 pm

Well, Movie Eight was written by Chris Sabat.
Huh, I didn't know that. Haven't seen the dub of movie 8 in years... can it be considered more accurate than the other dub writing?
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Post by Duo » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:49 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:
Well, Movie Eight was written by Chris Sabat.
Huh, I didn't know that. Haven't seen the dub of movie 8 in years... can it be considered more accurate than the other dub writing?
Not particularly, no.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:57 pm

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Post by Gogeta 00 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:07 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:I think you're giving them too much credit.

Vegeta's awful death speech in the dub was part of a constant and deliberate attempt by FUNimation to whitewash the Saiya-jin from ruthless bloodthirsty space barbarians into an honour bound, almost noble race of warriors that were simply mislead by a galactic tyrant. I can certainly understand why they did it, after all the dub was tripping over itself trying to turn Vegeta into a good guy as quickly as possible at that stage, but some throwaway filler in the anime doesn't really justify ignoring everything that had been established about Vegeta's character and the Saiya-jin race up to that point just because they want to make things a little more kiddie friendly.
After abandoning the english dub in favor of the original, I now know that nowhere is this idea pushed heavier then in the dub of the Bardock special. :roll:

I completley agree with peguintruth. It wouldn't have made a difference if Freeza hadn't taken Vegeta away and influenced him. He would have grown up as a cold-blooded murderous bastard either way. That's how the Saiya-jin race is. Freeza didn't force them to be that way. Sure he used them, but he didn't appear on planet Vegeta, enslave every Saiya-jin and breed them into merciless killers, that is their nature.

EDIT: For the record, I was typing this while kunzait was typing the above post, I agree with him as well as penguintruth.
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Post by penguintruth » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:20 pm

This is my favorite part of the English dub version, by the way:
There's no stinking honor in any of this! It's just a game, played to win, with no rules!
Vegeta, ladies in gentleman: expert in honor.

What with the beating the shit out of little kids and killing innocent civilians.

Also, "a game, played to win, with no rules"? It's not a game if there aren't any rules, and if it were a game, of course it would be played to win. All games are played to win! Your pithy summary of current events is flawed, dub Vegeta!
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Post by Adamant » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:26 pm

According to that guidebook timeline, didn't the Saiyans approach Freeza's empire with the idea of a "we kill the people you point at and you run our facilities and all that boring shit we don't want to do" teamup in the first place? That really hammers in how stupid the dub dialogue is in this scene.
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Post by NeptuneKai » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:33 pm

Wowzers, so much for that theory. Thanks for the input. :lol:
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Post by Tsukento » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:39 pm

It doesn't really help that the anime shows a few episodes later him laughing at the fact that both Goku and Freeza would die on Namek and then beating the hell out of Gohan, while going off about he'd be the strongest person in the world.

Not to mention, he later goes on about how his heart is pure evil when he explains how he became a Super Saiyan.
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Post by Big Momma » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:49 pm

I think it makes Freeza seem more evil.


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Post by Kaboom » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:57 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:
Well, Movie Eight was written by Chris Sabat.
Huh, I didn't know that. Haven't seen the dub of movie 8 in years... can it be considered more accurate than the other dub writing?
I'd say yes. It's one of those weird-dubbed things where despite not many lines being directly translated, it still manages to be pretty accurate overall. Which is about the best it gets with FUNi's DBZ.
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