Sigh... Why the Kikuchi Score Doesn't Work with the FUNi Dub
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
- Gaffer Tape
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6054
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
- Contact:
Sigh... Why the Kikuchi Score Doesn't Work with the FUNi Dub
As I've mentioned before, my recent acquisition of the Dragon Box has gotten me spot checking the dub for the first time in several years, allowing me to view the redub for the first time in some cases. I know Mike has said in certain episodes of the Podcast that it's the quality of the dub voices that clashes with the original Japanese score. Maybe that's true I agree that the voices do clash, but I don't know if that's really the case (all subjective, obviously). Yet they did work quite well in the Pioneer-released movies. Having done my spot-checking, I think I've come up with the answer. Let me give you this example:
In the recap for episode 23 I believe (don't have them in front of me), Goku is beating the crap out of Nappa. Then he Zanzokens in and has that awesome uppercut to Nappa's gut. Right at the point of that hit, the music just STOPS. Complete silence except for Nappa blubbering in pain. And it stays that way until Goku says, "That punch just now was for Chaozu."
THE ENGLISH SCRIPT WAS NOT WRITTEN TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT MOMENT OF SILENCE!
So instead, when you watch it in English, the music still stops since they're sourcing the original score, but Kyle Hebert just steamrolls over that entire moment by continuing to talk. It just sounds so bizarre, almost like the orchestra all just went into comas at that exact moment.
In contrast, the first three movies were written with those scores, those moments, in mind, so there's nothing jarring there. But we all know that one of FUNimation's biggest problems with their scripting is their nigh-inability to not have people talk. Here's one more fun example albeit a little less severe.
At the end of episode 17 when Tenshinhan-tachi return from getting killed by the dream Saiya-jin, Kami-sama asks them if they want to give up. There's an overhead shot of silence while they consider this. Then it cuts to a shot of Tenshinhan. The music begins a second before Tenshinhan smiles and then agrees to continue.
In the dub, this moment of silence is replaced by Kami-sama continuing to talk about how there is no shame in giving up. And he continues talking until the exact moment when Tenshinhan voices his assent... again, ruining the timing of when the music starts. Like before, it just makes the scene sound awkward due to their inaccurate scripting.
Don't get me wrong. Overall, I'm glad FUNimation dumped their revised score for this release. At least it's a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are countless moments like this. Has anyone else noticed this? Or did you all do the smart thing and save yourselves the headaches by not bothering to check the dub in the first place?
In the recap for episode 23 I believe (don't have them in front of me), Goku is beating the crap out of Nappa. Then he Zanzokens in and has that awesome uppercut to Nappa's gut. Right at the point of that hit, the music just STOPS. Complete silence except for Nappa blubbering in pain. And it stays that way until Goku says, "That punch just now was for Chaozu."
THE ENGLISH SCRIPT WAS NOT WRITTEN TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT MOMENT OF SILENCE!
So instead, when you watch it in English, the music still stops since they're sourcing the original score, but Kyle Hebert just steamrolls over that entire moment by continuing to talk. It just sounds so bizarre, almost like the orchestra all just went into comas at that exact moment.
In contrast, the first three movies were written with those scores, those moments, in mind, so there's nothing jarring there. But we all know that one of FUNimation's biggest problems with their scripting is their nigh-inability to not have people talk. Here's one more fun example albeit a little less severe.
At the end of episode 17 when Tenshinhan-tachi return from getting killed by the dream Saiya-jin, Kami-sama asks them if they want to give up. There's an overhead shot of silence while they consider this. Then it cuts to a shot of Tenshinhan. The music begins a second before Tenshinhan smiles and then agrees to continue.
In the dub, this moment of silence is replaced by Kami-sama continuing to talk about how there is no shame in giving up. And he continues talking until the exact moment when Tenshinhan voices his assent... again, ruining the timing of when the music starts. Like before, it just makes the scene sound awkward due to their inaccurate scripting.
Don't get me wrong. Overall, I'm glad FUNimation dumped their revised score for this release. At least it's a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are countless moments like this. Has anyone else noticed this? Or did you all do the smart thing and save yourselves the headaches by not bothering to check the dub in the first place?
- VegettoEX
- Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
- Posts: 17547
- Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
I think you answered your own question, Gaffer, when comparing the original FUNimation/Pioneer releases of DBZ movies 1-3 with the current stuff.
Those movies WERE scripted and produced with the original Japanese score in mind, which is why they feel so natural. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a dubbed version... it had to do with the fact that they were meant to be together from the very beginning.
Those movies WERE scripted and produced with the original Japanese score in mind, which is why they feel so natural. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a dubbed version... it had to do with the fact that they were meant to be together from the very beginning.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
- NeptuneKai
- I Live Here
- Posts: 3576
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:51 pm
- Gaffer Tape
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6054
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
- Contact:
Haha, yeah, good point. What exactly is 5.1 about that dub anyway? The music doesn't seem to come from a stereo source (it would be much more awesome if they did use a stereo master for that) but rather the same mono as the original. I guess the voices are 5.1... maybe the sound effects too? Overall, it just seems like a rather haphazard and inconsistent thing.
- Ultimate_DB_Fan
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:22 pm
- Gaffer Tape
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6054
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
- Contact:
Oh, yes, I certainly agree. The dub with the original score is certainly a phenomenal improvement. It's just a shame that the other half of the dub still doesn't fit. It's a step in the right direction, but they'd really have to do it again from the ground up to have a chance of getting it to really work (and at this point... there'd be no point).
- penguintruth
- Banned
- Posts: 4861
- Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:49 pm
I absolutely agree, actually.
Dragon Ball Z's English dub is essentially a different program than the Japanese version, a show that the Faulconer score belongs to.
But removing the Faulconer score is a step in the right direction towards a dub that is a faithful one.
Dragon Ball Z's English dub is essentially a different program than the Japanese version, a show that the Faulconer score belongs to.
But removing the Faulconer score is a step in the right direction towards a dub that is a faithful one.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.
Dragon Ball (Z) Kai Reviews!
Can I get a Schemen?
- Ultimate_DB_Fan
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:22 pm
I agree with you that it still doesn't fit and that it does feel a bit awkward. There's no denying that. It's an improvement, nonetheless.Gaffer Tape wrote:Oh, yes, I certainly agree. The dub with the original score is certainly a phenomenal improvement. It's just a shame that the other half of the dub still doesn't fit. It's a step in the right direction, but they'd really have to do it again from the ground up to have a chance of getting it to really work (and at this point... there'd be no point).
Doing it from the ground-up doesn't seem like an impossibility, contrary to what others may believe.
- Ultimate_DB_Fan
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:22 pm
I agree with you that it still doesn't fit and that it does feel a bit awkward. There's no denying that. It's an improvement, nonetheless.Gaffer Tape wrote:Oh, yes, I certainly agree. The dub with the original score is certainly a phenomenal improvement. It's just a shame that the other half of the dub still doesn't fit. It's a step in the right direction, but they'd really have to do it again from the ground up to have a chance of getting it to really work (and at this point... there'd be no point).
Doing a redub from the ground-up doesn't seem like an impossibility, contrary to what others may believe.
You just love saying that, don't you? We get it.penguintruth wrote:Dragon Ball Z's English dub is essentially a different program than the Japanese version, a show that the Faulconer score belongs to.
- IncompetentOverlord
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 273
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:23 pm
- Location: Sitting at my computer
- Contact:
.... can you say double post?
Stuff I Know About: Hellsing, Detective Conan, Macross, GaoGaiGar, Cowboy Bebop, Black Lagoon, Kaiji, Hetalia, Fullmetal Alchemist, Captain Harlock, Digimon, Berserk, Dragon Ball, One Piece, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Yu Yu Hakusho, Cyborg 009, Lupin III, Ultimate Muscle/Kinnikuman, Discworld, Avatar: The Last Airbender, TMNT, Futurama, Invader Zim, South Park, Sandman, Marvel, DC, Scott Pilgrim, Star Wars, Godzilla, Doctor Who, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Kingdom Hearts, and Sonic the Hedgehog
IncompetentOverlord wrote:.... can you say double post?
Double post.
Anyway, Yeah, The English voices do not go well together with the original Japanese score.
At all.
____________________
olympia wrote: 21:28 why are we still talking about the emails
21:29 who gives a fuck
21:29 shut the fuck up trunks
21:29 * mean trump
- Ultimate_DB_Fan
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:22 pm
- IncompetentOverlord
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 273
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:23 pm
- Location: Sitting at my computer
- Contact:
Case in point, Kuririn's goodbye to Goku before he fights Vegeta. That was classic. Hell, it's why I put it in my signature (I had it for like a month then took it off).Ultimate_DB_Fan wrote:I slightly disagree.CashmanX wrote:IncompetentOverlord wrote:.... can you say double post?
Double post.
Anyway, Yeah, The English voices do not go well together with the original Japanese score.
At all.
In some instances, it does somewhat mesh together.
Stuff I Know About: Hellsing, Detective Conan, Macross, GaoGaiGar, Cowboy Bebop, Black Lagoon, Kaiji, Hetalia, Fullmetal Alchemist, Captain Harlock, Digimon, Berserk, Dragon Ball, One Piece, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Yu Yu Hakusho, Cyborg 009, Lupin III, Ultimate Muscle/Kinnikuman, Discworld, Avatar: The Last Airbender, TMNT, Futurama, Invader Zim, South Park, Sandman, Marvel, DC, Scott Pilgrim, Star Wars, Godzilla, Doctor Who, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Kingdom Hearts, and Sonic the Hedgehog
Half the time I hardly notice any awkwardness.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
- Gaffer Tape
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6054
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
- Contact:
I don't think it's impossible. I just think they're aware they've already alienated their dub loyalist fanbase by reverting back to the original music, so I don't think they'd risk messing with the script again. Especially with Kai (most likely) on the horizon, it seems logical to me they'll simply use that to redeem themselves.Ultimate_DB_Fan wrote: Doing a redub from the ground-up doesn't seem like an impossibility, contrary to what others may believe.
Naw, most of their 5.1 tracks have ended up this way. Their own fault.JulieYBM wrote:Yeah, FUNimation's mix is pretty terrible. I guess Toei gave them a bad effects and music track.
[quote="Brakus"]For all the flack that FUNimation gets on this forum for their quote about DBZ, there's some modicum of truth to it: a 9-year-old is born every day. Or in some cases, "reborn". DBZ may be a kids' show, but it's been so close to so many hearts all over Japan, America, and quite possibly, even the world.[/quote]