I'm sorry, but that seems like a lame way to get the last word in so I'm just gonna go ahead and answer anyway. First, yes, I can think of a martial arts series where the characters aren't mainly cliches (and the first one that comes to mind is early Dragon Ball). And second, as far as archetypal stories go, when it comes to a movie like Star Wars the biggest difference between that and DBZ is that Lucas still managed to fit a fair amount of humor into his saga. DBZ takes itself way too seriously given its subject matter, and that's thanks in part to trying to make a two dimensional character like Goku seem more interesting than he actually is.IncompetentOverlord wrote: I won't argue with you further. I can think of several counter arguments to your post, but I can tell it would be a waste of both my time and yours to bring them up. However, I will leave you with a hypothetical question.
Can you think of one Martial Arts/Superhero series where the characters aren't mainly cliches?
And yet this doesn't matter to me. They were written in such a way that they still mean something to me even though I know that they are mainly archetypes from old legends and popular fiction. The same goes for many other non-anime series, like Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings.
As was previously stated, it's a hypothetical question: please don't answer it with a post. Just think about it.
Your rewrite of the Dragon Ball manga
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Yeah why not, I would love to have Mr. Satan beat up someone much more powerful then him for the fun of it .Or do you mean you would like to see Mr. Satan legitimately win against 18 rather than how it really happened? (The way I worded it for you)
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The humans have never had 'real fights' ever outside of a tournament where they're protected by rules.IncompetentOverlord wrote:What people want is for the humans to be useful against the Artificial Humans, Cell, and Boo. They were present, but they didn't get any character development or any real fights.
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Then only the Cell arc and the buu arc didn`t focus on the Dragons balls since its clear that the sayans and Freeza wanted the Dragon balls and they were their motivation.IncredibleGuy wrote:er.... I am going to have to disagree with that one. It was absolutely the focus. The Piccolo Jr. saga definitely had nothing to do with it, but the original Piccolo made the Dragon Balls his priority. Aside from the that there were a few tournaments, and with the exception of the first one I found them to be pretty boring. Like a warmup until the real adventure started right afterwards.IncompetentOverlord wrote:
Ahem....WHAAAAAAT!!??
First of all, the original DB really only had two arcs where the search for the Dballs was the focus: the Son Goku and Red Ribbon Army stories. Piccolo Daimao was also after them, but that wasn't really the focus of the arc.
Dragon ball is supposed to be just one story so yes, it would be boring to have all the vilains with the same motivation.
DBZ taking itself too seriously? With less humor than Star wars? I must have seen a different show...IncredibleGuy wrote:
I'm sorry, but that seems like a lame way to get the last word in so I'm just gonna go ahead and answer anyway. First, yes, I can think of a martial arts series where the characters aren't mainly cliches (and the first one that comes to mind is early Dragon Ball). And second, as far as archetypal stories go, when it comes to a movie like Star Wars the biggest difference between that and DBZ is that Lucas still managed to fit a fair amount of humor into his saga. DBZ takes itself too seriously given its subject matter, and that's thanks in part to trying to make a two dimensional character like Goku seem more interesting than he actually is.
This.Kendamu wrote:Y'know how in the Jump Special everyone had something to contribute when the debris was falling? I would do something kind of like that. I would give everyone who was around a specific way to contribute something important to whatever is happening. Sure, in the end it would still be the main super popular characters who fight the main bad guy, but everyone else who just stood around during the non-tournament fights would have something important to do in that Justice League kind of way... which would make Piccolo the "Batman" of the group... which is totally awesome!
Which ... the Cell Saga tried to do (though half-heartedly). Meh.
Dangit, Chaozu. -_-
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I agree with the previous sentiments about the Jump special doing a good job. Not every villain has to be a huge threat to absolutely everyone. You can have more personal antagonists, like someone kidnapping Chaozu, or maybe an archnemesis for Yamucha.
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First thing I'd change is little Chichi's outfit because it gives Pedophilia for readers.
Storywise, maybe I'de leave Toriyama's original plan with Fatso & Geezer in the Jinzoningen arc.
I'de remind Toriyama of his contradictions and plotholes.
I'de make the Dragon Balls get to be the plot device for every villain in the series. (We had Pilaf, The Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo Daimaoh, The Saiyans and then Freeza. But after that, they turned into nothing for but life restoring items everytime someone dies.)
I'de give other characters more roles instead of making it Goku-centric all the time.
I'de make Pilaf the recurring villain who does something ((Like getting the Dragon Balls)) in every arc no matter how small or big it is.
I'de take away the regeneration of Boo because it's too annoying!!
I'de give Vegetto a one day limit because Vegeta is alive for one day.
Storywise, maybe I'de leave Toriyama's original plan with Fatso & Geezer in the Jinzoningen arc.
I'de remind Toriyama of his contradictions and plotholes.
I'de make the Dragon Balls get to be the plot device for every villain in the series. (We had Pilaf, The Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo Daimaoh, The Saiyans and then Freeza. But after that, they turned into nothing for but life restoring items everytime someone dies.)
I'de give other characters more roles instead of making it Goku-centric all the time.
I'de make Pilaf the recurring villain who does something ((Like getting the Dragon Balls)) in every arc no matter how small or big it is.
I'de take away the regeneration of Boo because it's too annoying!!
I'de give Vegetto a one day limit because Vegeta is alive for one day.
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I think not getting humiliated on a daily basis was enough of an enemy for Yamcha, considering he never won.IncompetentOverlord wrote:I agree with the previous sentiments about the Jump special doing a good job. Not every villain has to be a huge threat to absolutely everyone. You can have more personal antagonists, like someone kidnapping Chaozu, or maybe an archnemesis for Yamucha.
Not a problem.
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It's about time I got round to this.
Firstly, have Chaozu's role in the Saiyans a little more than just blowing up on Nappa's back. I wish they had him last a little longer in the battle against Nappa. I still think he should've died before Tenshinhan, but have Nappa fighting him and the others a while longer before Chaozu blew himself up. The self-destruction was supposed to be a last resort, when really all (and I say "all") Nappa did was chop off Tenshinhan's arm and make a crater in the ground. It was as if it was Toriyama's way of telling us he hated Chaozu.
Like someone else said, Freeza should be special and still be seen as a villain who was extremely powerful and feared even in the afterlife. None of this "All Kaioshins could beat Freeza in one blow" bullshit. Freeza was not a small-time punk.
Lunch should've appeared in Dragon Ball Z. I absolutely despised how Toriyama chucked her out of the story with his "chasing after Tenshinhan" line, which, might I add, is the only part in the story that she is ever talked about or referred to. She isn't even mentioned again! I know it may be in Launch's personality to be very determined when it comes to getting the job done, but explain this: would a person really go missing for years chasing after a guy who fly faster than any vehicle and still hope to catch him? I think that Launch should've either stayed at Kame-Sen'nin's house or gone missing, but popped back up at random points in the story like Yajirobe, or just to visit.
Maybe have more of a backstory to King Cold. Don't have him just pop out of nowhere. Maybe have Freeza talk about him a bit more in the story. Make mention of King Cold being just as much of a galactic ruler and global fear as Freeza.
Like someone else said, foreshadow Dr. Gero during the Red Ribbon Army Arc. When Murasaki is saying "Don't you remember who made you? The Red Ribbon Army, that's who!" to #8, he should mention Dr. Gero, or just "The Doctor" (no Doctor Who jokes, please ). But that's the only mention. And when Goku destroys the Red Ribbon HQ (and this time, the whole headquarters building is destroyed), there should be an eerie scene where Dr. Gero (we wouldn't know who this old guy was, yet) was hiding in the ruins, watching as Goku flies off, and he vows to exact his revenge. Also, like SSJ Kaboom said, have the robot bug things that were collecting cells for Cell randomly pop up at times, but as little black dots so they would be hard for the reader to notice.
Remove all inconsistencies in Dragon Ball. And with Cell's regeneration, have it exactly like Piccolo's regeneration ability. Piccolo can regenerate as long as his head is intact. The same should go for Cell. Meaning that Goku's Kamehameha that blows off Cell's top half would be removed from the story as well.
In the Cell arc, give Gohan more of a role in the Cell arc. It seems like the whole hidden power thing drops out for a while before conveniently appearing again during the Cell Games. Have Gohan fight the Artificial Humans with everyone else, but be the last one to get owned, just for a little dramatic effect. Bulma, Trunks & Yajirobe can find their own damn way home.
Also, let's see more of Goku & Gohan's training in the Room of Spirit & Time, so we can actually see how Goku proposed to bring out Gohan's hidden power. Gohan should transform into Super Saiyan the way he did in the anime, including the whole build-up to it. In the manga, I couldn't help but feel somewhat unfulfilled by the event.
Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 shouldn't exactly be a transformation, but something special to Gohan and Gohan only. Sort of like Gohan's raging-out state, but being Gohan, and the fact that he's a Super Saiyan, it manifested itself into something greater. And Gohan should inherit his father's role of world hero after Son Goku dies.
No Majin Boo arc either. There's a reason why it was the worst of Dragon Ball Z's four arcs, and that's because it lacked the spirit of the Saiyan arc, the Freeza arc and even the Cell arc.
I have many more ideas, but if I continue, I'll be writing 'til midnight.
Firstly, have Chaozu's role in the Saiyans a little more than just blowing up on Nappa's back. I wish they had him last a little longer in the battle against Nappa. I still think he should've died before Tenshinhan, but have Nappa fighting him and the others a while longer before Chaozu blew himself up. The self-destruction was supposed to be a last resort, when really all (and I say "all") Nappa did was chop off Tenshinhan's arm and make a crater in the ground. It was as if it was Toriyama's way of telling us he hated Chaozu.
Like someone else said, Freeza should be special and still be seen as a villain who was extremely powerful and feared even in the afterlife. None of this "All Kaioshins could beat Freeza in one blow" bullshit. Freeza was not a small-time punk.
Lunch should've appeared in Dragon Ball Z. I absolutely despised how Toriyama chucked her out of the story with his "chasing after Tenshinhan" line, which, might I add, is the only part in the story that she is ever talked about or referred to. She isn't even mentioned again! I know it may be in Launch's personality to be very determined when it comes to getting the job done, but explain this: would a person really go missing for years chasing after a guy who fly faster than any vehicle and still hope to catch him? I think that Launch should've either stayed at Kame-Sen'nin's house or gone missing, but popped back up at random points in the story like Yajirobe, or just to visit.
Maybe have more of a backstory to King Cold. Don't have him just pop out of nowhere. Maybe have Freeza talk about him a bit more in the story. Make mention of King Cold being just as much of a galactic ruler and global fear as Freeza.
Like someone else said, foreshadow Dr. Gero during the Red Ribbon Army Arc. When Murasaki is saying "Don't you remember who made you? The Red Ribbon Army, that's who!" to #8, he should mention Dr. Gero, or just "The Doctor" (no Doctor Who jokes, please ). But that's the only mention. And when Goku destroys the Red Ribbon HQ (and this time, the whole headquarters building is destroyed), there should be an eerie scene where Dr. Gero (we wouldn't know who this old guy was, yet) was hiding in the ruins, watching as Goku flies off, and he vows to exact his revenge. Also, like SSJ Kaboom said, have the robot bug things that were collecting cells for Cell randomly pop up at times, but as little black dots so they would be hard for the reader to notice.
Remove all inconsistencies in Dragon Ball. And with Cell's regeneration, have it exactly like Piccolo's regeneration ability. Piccolo can regenerate as long as his head is intact. The same should go for Cell. Meaning that Goku's Kamehameha that blows off Cell's top half would be removed from the story as well.
In the Cell arc, give Gohan more of a role in the Cell arc. It seems like the whole hidden power thing drops out for a while before conveniently appearing again during the Cell Games. Have Gohan fight the Artificial Humans with everyone else, but be the last one to get owned, just for a little dramatic effect. Bulma, Trunks & Yajirobe can find their own damn way home.
Also, let's see more of Goku & Gohan's training in the Room of Spirit & Time, so we can actually see how Goku proposed to bring out Gohan's hidden power. Gohan should transform into Super Saiyan the way he did in the anime, including the whole build-up to it. In the manga, I couldn't help but feel somewhat unfulfilled by the event.
Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 shouldn't exactly be a transformation, but something special to Gohan and Gohan only. Sort of like Gohan's raging-out state, but being Gohan, and the fact that he's a Super Saiyan, it manifested itself into something greater. And Gohan should inherit his father's role of world hero after Son Goku dies.
No Majin Boo arc either. There's a reason why it was the worst of Dragon Ball Z's four arcs, and that's because it lacked the spirit of the Saiyan arc, the Freeza arc and even the Cell arc.
This. He should've treated her the way he treated #16. There is still the same foreshadowing for Kuririn & #18's relationship, though. Most parts concerning Kuririn & #18 stay pretty much the same after that.B wrote:Kuririn doesn't kill 18 because he sees "human" fear in her at the thought of being absorbed by Cell and deems her "not so bad" as opposed to being desperately horny.
I have many more ideas, but if I continue, I'll be writing 'til midnight.
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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What exactly could Chiaotzu do?Piccolo Daimao wrote:Firstly, have Chaozu's role in the Saiyans a little more than just blowing up on Nappa's back. I wish they had him last a little longer in the battle against Nappa. I still think he should've died before Tenshinhan, but have Nappa fighting him and the others a while longer before Chaozu blew himself up. The self-destruction was supposed to be a last resort, when really all (and I say "all") Nappa did was chop off Tenshinhan's arm and make a crater in the ground. It was as if it was Toriyama's way of telling us he hated Chaozu.
Eh, I think it would've weakened the Freeza Saga to just offhandedly mention "o btw my daddy's just as much of a badass". That's the kind of thing to do at the beginning of a story to set up the TRUE bad guy.Maybe have more of a backstory to King Cold. Don't have him just pop out of nowhere. Maybe have Freeza talk about him a bit more in the story. Make mention of King Cold being just as much of a galactic ruler and global fear as Freeza.
Base Gohan outlasting Super Saiyan Vegeta? No.Have Gohan fight the Artificial Humans with everyone else, but be the last one to get owned, just for a little dramatic effect.
The only way I would support this is if Gohan isn't such a titanic pussy for the entire story previous.Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 shouldn't exactly be a transformation, but something special to Gohan and Gohan only. Sort of like Gohan's raging-out state, but being Gohan, and the fact that he's a Super Saiyan, it manifested itself into something greater. And Gohan should inherit his father's role of world hero after Son Goku dies.
I prefer, however, Piccolo and Vegeta as the world heroes after Goku's death.
Rocketman, I think (if there were a total re-write from about Goku turning Super Saiyan on), it would have been cool for Piccolo and Vegeta to be the main heroes for an Arc, then have Gohan succeed for whatever would be the Arc after that.
I wouldn't want to overhaul his character as much as you, but some changes would be nice. Like maybe a technique besides GET PISSED.
I wouldn't want to overhaul his character as much as you, but some changes would be nice. Like maybe a technique besides GET PISSED.
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Exactly. It could be like a side-story arc where everyone gets their own plotlines that tie together at the end.Rocketman wrote:Nobody but Tenshinhan would care.IncompetentOverlord wrote:You can have more personal antagonists, like someone kidnapping Chaozu
Nobody would care.or maybe an archnemesis for Yamucha.
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I tried coming up with one of those once as the basis for a crappy generic fighting game set between Namek's destruction and Trunks' warning.IncompetentOverlord wrote:Exactly. It could be like a side-story arc where everyone gets their own plotlines that tie together at the end.Rocketman wrote:Nobody but Tenshinhan would care.IncompetentOverlord wrote:You can have more personal antagonists, like someone kidnapping Chaozu
Nobody would care.or maybe an archnemesis for Yamucha.
Maybe I'll look at my notes on that again.
I remember something about some random Namekian and some artifact that does something (I don't even remember how that was relevant...), some MarySue-esque girl who starts to learn fighting, only to realize that the main cast has her beat by so many leaps and bounds that she goes crazy and starts messing with people... and some Rat Demon that had something to do with Karin...
... So yeah, I'd say something a bit less random fanfictiony than what I just mentioned.
... Wait a second! That ... describes just about everything I write. -_- *headdesk* *fails*
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[inner monologue]rereboy wrote:DBZ taking itself too seriously? With less humor than Star wars? I must have seen a different show...
When... when did rereboy write this reply?! I barely even noticed it was there. His posts are so fast! H-.. how?!
[/inner monologue]
grr.... rereboy....!!
Last edited by IncredibleGuy on Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Signatures are stupid and I wish there was a way to turn them off
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This has my vote.SHINOBI-03 wrote:I'd give Vegetto a one day limit because Vegeta is alive for one day.
None of that "magic in Buu's body de-fused us" crap.
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That typical dragon ball fighting situation doesn`t change the fact that Dragon Ball (even DBZ) is heavily influenced by humor and goofy situations.IncredibleGuy wrote:[inner monologue]rereboy wrote:DBZ taking itself too seriously? With less humor than Star wars? I must have seen a different show...
When... when did rereboy write this reply?! I barely even noticed it was there. His posts are so fast! H-.. how?!
[/inner monologue]
grr.... rereboy....!!
It basically only takes itself seriously enough to be considered a fighting/action manga instead of a comical one (like I would consider early Dragon Ball to be).
The most "serious" arc is the Cell arc but even that arc has much humor (Mr. Satan for example).
DB never took itself that seriously and that fact is clear within the story and the overall attitude of the author and goofiness of the manga. What takes Dragon Ball seriously are the fans who never got how Dragon Ball isnt meant too be taken that seriously.
You should check out a serious fighting manga like Vagabond and then I would like to see if you still think DB takes itself too seriously.
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The original Dragon Ball may have been influenced by humor and goofy situations (Drunken Master I believe is the movie Toriyama cited in its creation), but DBZ is about as cliche as you can get - Last of a race, oppressed by an unruly tyrant, transformed by emotional connections to his friends, blah, blah, blah. But like you said, "It basically only takes itself seriously enough to be considered a fighting/action manga instead of a comical one", which for me is too serious. The plot simply isn't strong enough to exist without a notable amount of humor. And the fight scenes that make up the bulk of this serious demeanor are simply too long, and too numerous, even in the manga.rereboy wrote: That typical dragon ball fighting situation doesn`t change the fact that Dragon Ball (even DBZ) is heavily influenced by humor and goofy situations.
It basically only takes itself seriously enough to be considered a fighting/action manga instead of a comical one (like I would consider early Dragon Ball to be).
The most "serious" arc is the Cell arc but even that arc has much humor (Mr. Satan for example).
DB never took itself that seriously and that fact is clear within the story and the overall attitude of the author and goofiness of the manga. What takes Dragon Ball seriously are the fans who never got how Dragon Ball isnt meant too be taken that seriously.
You should check out a serious fighting manga like Vagabond and then I would like to see if you still think DB takes itself too seriously.
Satan was a nice touch, as was Saiyaman, and SS3 Gotenks, but how much of an impact did these people have on the bulk of the story? Practically nothing! For every 5 minutes of humor there's about 100 minutes of drawn out fight scenes, story recanting, and grunting. And for good reason, it sells!
You say real fans don't take DBZ seriously? Bologna! DBZ's fanbase is primarily teenage and prebuscent boys. Hell, even a lot of the people on this board consider Dragon Ball's overall plot to be novel worthy material as they move well into adulthood.
Let me be clear, however, because I know DBZ isn't the most serious anime on the planet. But a few sight gags now and then aren't enough to make up for the fact that on the whole Dragon Ball post Raditz is pretty boring.
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Signatures are stupid and I wish there was a way to turn them off
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Methinks if Rocketman put as much effort into coming up with his own ideas as he did looking for flaws in other people's, this would be a fun thread.
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