"FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid" - Wait, what?

[jjgp1112]

Okay, I hate to beat a proverbial dead horse, but I was looking through one of the DBZ Kai threads and I just started to think, where the hell did this notion that Funi thought it's fans were stupid come from? Like, what mental gymnastics are required to even come to such a conclusion? I just found it comical how people will seem to look for any attempt to get people to view Funimation as this evil corporation that hates its fans. Like seeing penguintruth make a joke about Funimation changing any name that has more than two syllables. Even as a joke, that came off as a rather silly attempt to vilify FUNimation.

Yes, we all know that Funi made changes to the show and changed the music score, and all of that shit. But the thing was, this was 1996. The anime market was largely untested, and almost all other Anime dubs were done the exact same way as DBZ was done initially. Sure, DBZ probably would've taken off if kept as-is, but it's a lot easier to say that now as opposed to 14 years ago. Funimation wasn't taking any risks of wasting their time on a show that would bomb. So they decided to make the show more like other children's cartoons around the time.

But where does this become a "calculated insult on the audience's intelligence?" I highly doubt that FUNi executives were sitting in their offices saying, "Man, those American children sure are stupid, they're not smart enough to like it like this." They were just trying to make it more similar to US Cartoons. Plain and simple. I don't see how it's possible to think they were trying to insult our intelligence, other than making a half-hearted attempt to feel like an oppressed victim.

And I don't mean to be antagonistic or to jump to conclusions, but I can't help but think that it may be because the people who make these statements, somewhere in their heads, are thinking, "People who actually like this shit HAVE to be idiots, so Funi must've made these changes because they thought the people they were marketing to were dumb enough to like it in the first place." And in that case, all I have to say is get over yourselves and just kinda reevaluate the way you look at things.

Basically, I'd really like to see some insight on what people think indicates that Funi thinks its fans are dumb.

[penguintruth]

Well, for one, they dumb down/simplify the dialogue to make the characters and scenarios more relatable to the average American child.

Vegeta doesn't regret who he's become in the Japanese version, but by his first death on Namek he's begging for Goku to stop Freeza from turning any more little boys into people like him.

Even earlier, Goku spares Vegeta, in the dub not because he wants to fight him again, but because it's merciful to. This is more in line with the traditional values you see in American cartoons, where the evil villain is spared because the good and righteous hero is merciful and just. In the Japanese version, Goku isn't under the impression Vegeta will become a better person. This is a selfish request. His Saiyan blood drives him to want to fight Vegeta again some day.

These are just a couple of examples of what permeates throughout the various English dubs of the show. This is insulting because it's like saying the audience couldn't possibly understand or recognize the value of the story the way it was intended, that they lack the faculties to do so. That the show has to be transformed into something different for DBZ to be likeable.

I absolutely believe that they intended to water down this to fit the average, dumb American cartoon. Not that DBZ is especially intelligent in itself, but it's clearly more complex than many American cartoons that aired at the time of its release in North America, and even some now, as an action carton.

They even add dialogue where there wasn't any as if the American audience needs more explanation for things the Japanese audience didn't.

[jjgp1112]

That's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. How does "making it more like an American cartoon" suddenly become, "Treating its audience like idiots." Again, this is 1996 we're talking about, not 2010 where every little kid tries to watch Anime and use Japanese honorifics to feel cool.

[Gaffer Tape]

Ooh, I'll give this a shot. I certainly don't think it was ever an explicit, "We think our fans are dumb," moreso than just following that kind of mentality. I'll always remember an interview with Cindy Brennan-Fukunaga (is she still around? I never hear about her anymore, just Gen) where, in one question, she praises their choice of DBZ for its uniqueness but then a few questions later defends Rock the Dragon by claiming it's very similar to what's popular in America. So basically they were both interested in what made it different but not enough to actually believe in those very elements.

But as for more specifically "dumbing down" you have to look at animation in general. I'm sure you've heard the debate come up. You have Disney movies, the old Looney Tunes, new films like Shrek, and shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender that demonstrate that, even if your core demographic is children, it can still be intelligent and able to impact different people on different levels. I believe Robert Zemeckis put it best when he said that he believed those types of cartoons weren't made "for children." They were made for everybody, and it just happened to be appropriate for children. He goes on to say that when adults specifically cater to children, or, more accurately, what they think are children's levels, the result is very two-dimensional, lacking in substance, and dumbed down.

Actions such as never allowing a moment of silence, either in music or in talking, is one of those things that I dare anyone to justify in a way other than FUNimation fearing that children would immediately lose interest if the noise was turned down. No, seriously, if anyone has any other idea for why they did that, I would love to hear that. Likewise, can the constant addition of cartoony "boinks" and "zonks" be for any other reason than to hype up the little kiddies? I'm sure anyone can make a list of almost anything FUNimation significantly altered and find good reason to believe that it exists solely to cater to what they perceive is a child's level. Is it conclusive? No. Does this mean that other cartoons haven't done the same thing? Not at all. It doesn't make the claim any more or less legitimate to say that "everybody did it," though.

[penguintruth]

That's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. How does "making it more like an American cartoon" suddenly become, "Treating its audience like idiots." Again, this is 1996 we're talking about, not 2010 where every little kid tries to watch Anime and use Japanese honorifics to feel cool.

The act of making it seem like an American cartoon is itself insulting to the intelligence of the viewer, saying that American children can't handle foreign entertainment unless it relates to what they already are used to. It's calling us uncultured.

[bkev]

Even earlier, Goku spares Vegeta, in the dub not because he wants to fight him again, but because it's merciful to. This is more in line with the traditional values you see in American cartoons, where the evil villain is spared because the good and righteous hero is merciful and just.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original dub actually keep this selfish request? I still have no idea why in the UUC they made up some dumb speech.

edit: nope, spot-checked it. Incorrect on my part, sorry.

[jjgp1112]

That's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. How does "making it more like an American cartoon" suddenly become, "Treating its audience like idiots." Again, this is 1996 we're talking about, not 2010 where every little kid tries to watch Anime and use Japanese honorifics to feel cool.

The act of making it seem like an American cartoon is itself insulting to the intelligence of the viewer, saying that American children can't handle foreign entertainment unless it relates to what they already are used to. It's calling us uncultured.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. There wasn't any real evidence in 1996 that American kid would enjoy a show in the vein as DBZ, and Funi's first priority is to make money above all else. So I don't see how they're treating its audience like crap. They were just being complacent and didn't have the insight that every company has now. They didn't think were stupid - they just didn't think that the style of DBZ appealed to their tastes. Of course, when Funimation completely took over in Season 3 and stopped editing the fuck out everything, they eventually started acknowledging the show's origin and original style more and more since they already hooked their audience on the show and the anime industry was evolving.

Just put yourself in their shoes at the time. When you're a small as shit company and the one show that you're banking the whole company on is completely unlike anything people have experienced before, you're more likely to just cling to the status-quo. Big companies can afford to risk introducing something different because if it doesn't work, they can just brush it off. But for a company as small as FUNi was back in the day, they weren't risking shit.

[Gaffer Tape]

Again, your question isn't "Were they justified in dumbing down the show?" Your question was, "Did they?"

[penguintruth]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original dub actually keep this selfish request? I still have no idea why in the UUC they made up some dumb speech.

I'm pretty certain that Goku spared Vegeta out of the goodness of his heart in both versions of the English dub. The UUE was working with the Ocean scripts for the most part.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. There wasn't any real evidence in 1996 that American kid would enjoy a show in the vein as DBZ, and Funi's first priority is to make money above all else. So I don't see how they're treating its audience like crap. They were just being complacent and didn't have the insight that every company has now. They didn't think were stupid - they just didn't think that the style of DBZ appealed to their tastes. Of course, when Funimation completely took over in Season 3 and stopped editing the fuck out everything, they eventually started acknowledging the show's origin and original style more and more since they already hooked their audience on the show and the anime industry was evolving.

Either way, it either becomes insulting to the audience of the dub when it first came out, or insulting to the current audience, because we're used to better, more faithful dubs. You may have been able to excuse what they did back in the day, but that the dub is still the way it is now is even more insulting.

Also, I find it cute that you think the dub changed that dramatically when Funimation started doing it in house. Sure, there were some changes, but it still wasn't up to par with any of the anime dubs that were out at that time.

Even some of Streamline's dubs back before Funimation's first DB dub were more accurate.

[jjgp1112]

The dub is still the way it is because it was completed for the most part 8 years ago. Do you expect every dubbing company that was around in the 90s to just go and say, "Whelp, since every dub now is different, looks like we're just gonna have to completely redo this old one." As much as you would like to see Funi redo the DBZ dub from scratch, it's not very practical. How can Funimation possibly in 1996 insult an audience that wouldn't even come out until many years later?

And yes, I do think that Funimation around 2000 or so became miles more faithful to the original, but that's for another thread. But for the record, I always found DBZ to be a little bit more "mature" than the average cartoon on air. Maybe it was because of the fact that it was on Toonami, but I definitely thought it was more "advanced" than an action show on Nickelodeon or Kids WB.

[B]

The dub is still the way it is because it was completed for the most part 8 years ago. Do you expect every dubbing company that was around in the 90s to just go and say, "Whelp, since every dub now is different, looks like we're just gonna have to completely redo this old one."

They would have if it hadn't of exploded. Or they would have died.

[Gaffer Tape]

Sigh. I don't know why I even bothered posting in this thread.

[B]

Sigh. I don't know why I even bothered posting in this thread.

Hey, your post was awesome; I just didn't feel pointing it out would contribute too much.

[penguintruth]

The dub is still the way it is because it was completed for the most part 8 years ago. Do you expect every dubbing company that was around in the 90s to just go and say, "Whelp, since every dub now is different, looks like we're just gonna have to completely redo this old one." As much as you would like to see Funi redo the DBZ dub from scratch, it's not very practical. How can Funimation possibly in 1996 insult an audience that wouldn't even come out until many years later?

Because Funimation has never had the opportunity until just now to redo the dub?

Not to mention, even if you can excuse what they did in the past, it still doesn't make it a good dub. Dubs have to hold up, otherwise it's as good as them never having been good to begin with. A movie that was good a decade ago isn't good if it's not good now.

The DBZ dub wasn't even that good for back then. I think Ronin Warriors was probably better as a dub.

I always found DBZ to be a little bit more "mature" than the average cartoon on air. Maybe it was because of the fact that it was on Toonami, but I definitely thought it was more "advanced" than an action show on Nickelodeon or Kids WB.

You're right, it was. Even censored and with a bad dub script, DBZ was still edgier than most other cartoons airing at the time. But that's the strength of the original version of the series shining through. It's still no excuse for a poor dub.

[Gaffer Tape]

Sigh. I don't know why I even bothered posting in this thread.

Hey, your post was awesome; I just didn't feel pointing it out would contribute too much.

I appreciate that. I just figured this thread would be more along the lines of stuff like that. A bit more thoughtful. Instead, it's just the same old bickering of what FUNimation did wrong or right. Not that I usually mind that, but the original post of this thread did seem like it had the potential to be more.

[B]

I think Tape makes a fantastic point, and it sort of answers the original question, that these people were not sitting in ivory towers trying to discern how to annoy us. No, what they did was stereotype children. And it worked.

FUNimation's dub and overall marketing for this series is not malicious, just really careless. Of course, they're doing all sorts of careless things right now.

[jjgp1112]

Penguintruth, I'm not trying to argue whether the dub is good or not (which I do think, for the record).

[penguintruth]

But one of the reasons I think the dub is bad is because I believe it does actively insult the intelligence of the viewer. Why add all that dialogue were there wasn't any unless you felt like the viewer isn't going to understand what they're watching unless you add more explanation? As if there wasn't already tons of redundancy/repetition in the original script, they added more.

Are you telling me Gohan's "Android 16... you loved life! And you were just an android!" isn't insulting? It came just after 16 told him that very thing!

[the_abberration]

I think some of the things FUNimation did in the name of censorship in the earlier days, came off as insulting to a majority of DBZ fans. This initial dislike and subsequent complaints evolved into the "FUNi is evil" vibe that took a while for them to shake.

First off, the anime market, had been tested prior to 1996. Remember shows such as Astroboy, Kimba, Gigantor, Transor Z, Starblazers, and G-Force (to name a few) paved the way. In some way shape or form these shows suffered varying degrees of censorship. However, Robotech was able to break-thru in that while it suffered censorship, some of the more serious themes made it through. Up until that time, only unmanned tanks were destroyed, robots were killed, and people were sent into another dimension (an episode of Voltron actually used this to explain a characters' "death" prior to DBZ).

Robotech received critical acclaim for shooting the dice and representing violent actions resulting in death with a fair amount of success. Now along comes DBZ. A fighting show with a child in the the middle of violence. Yet any attacks or physical damage are airbrushed over, aliens seem to know that buildings they are destroying are empty (because it's Sunday?!?), and no one dies but are sent into another dimension.

I reiterate, this is a fighting show where one of the main points is that when a character dies, they can be wished back with a magical plot device. Yet they are in another dimension?? If that is the case, why not have Bulma create a time space portal to bring them back from this other dimension? On the other hand, shows like The Simpsons dealt with character death many times over.

The thing that gets me though, is how we came full circle. When the DBZ first premiered in the U.S. in edited form in 1996, fans complained until FUNi gave it to us uncut. Now it's 2010 and U.S. fans are waiting for DBZ: Kai which in effect is edited but uncut.

[caejones]

But one of the reasons I think the dub is bad is because I believe it does actively insult the intelligence of the viewer. Why add all that dialogue were there wasn't any unless you felt like the viewer isn't going to understand what they're watching unless you add more explanation? As if there wasn't already tons of redundancy/repetition in the original script, they added more.

Are you telling me Gohan's "Android 16... you loved life! And you were just an android!" isn't insulting? It came just after 16 told him that very thing!

I think the adding of extra dialogue is the most valid point that's been brought up to the topic of this thread; while we may find localizing of content to be insulting, I don't think it's an insult to intelligence so much as expected tolerance (or something like that).
The inability to have a single moment of silence, extra dialogue, occasional thing like "WOULD YOU BE QUIET! I'D RATHER FRI'EZA'S SCOUTERS DIDN'T PICK US UP BECAUSE OF YOUR INCESSANT JABBERING!"... those don't seem to fall into the category of localization so much as deciding the audience is either extremely stupid or ridiculously fickle (or both).

But... yeah... that's... mostly all I've got.