Stupid things you've ignored.

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by BobZ » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:06 pm

coola wrote:Cooler: "I can transform one more time then Freeza! Sounds cool? Sorry,but I'm already in 4th form,so you`ll be able to see only one transformation"
Yeah, and what's up with the Cold family anyway? We only saw Freeza's forms. His father had a tad different skin colour and was in his second form? While his brother in his final form looked completely different as a whole. Their whole race seems fucked up. :lol: We just weren't given that much information about them and that's why I found it strange and guess just simply ignored it. I know they're CHANGE-lings and all, but aren't they supposed to look at least a bit similar or something? They actually do, but without following a specific pattern.

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:53 pm

coola wrote:Cooler: "I can transform one more time then Freeza! Sounds cool? Sorry,but I'm already in 4th form,so you`ll be able to see only one transformation"
In addition to this, Freeza and his many transformations were irritating. The third form looked completely out of place, and his final form was ruined when he went all bulky with the 100%.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kaboom » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:04 pm

Listing Freeza's forms as simply "first" through "fourth" is a bit misleading, because they were there to hold his power back. Power which was all available in his slim, final form. So it'd be more appropriate to label that as his "true," most natural form, and the others as first, second, or third "suppression" or what-not.

If Cold's power works the same way, then he was likely just in one of his suppression forms as well when we saw him. He more than likely has a "true" form as well that we never got to see, because he tried for trickery against Trunks than fighting him outright. Freeza's body was probably incapable of using the suppression forms after he was so badly injured on Namek, so his new cybernetics probably did any required suppression for him. This never came up in the Trunks "arc" so we may never know for sure.

Cooler was in his "true" form when we first saw him. My theory is that he had much better control over his power than his brother and father did. He just strolled around in his true form all the time with no problem, and it seemed he was actually able to suppress his ki at times, since he snuck up on the heroes and surprised them a few times during movie 5.

I like to think that this better ki control of his was what led to his discovery of his extra, "fifth" form. It may have been a result of trying to figure out a better way to channel his "100%" power. It's like Freeza's bulked-up "100%" is Super Saiyan Grade 3, while Cooler's transformation is like a proper Super Saiyan 2.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Thanos6 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:46 pm

Same here, actually.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kaboom » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:41 am

Oh, to add another ignore-worthy idea to the list... Kaioshin's power. Particularly the out-of-nowhere concept that he's stronger than the beast that is Piccolo. It's a damn shame that Big Green needs to get downplayed in order to hype a character who turns out to be an incompetent, worthless, cowardly hack in the end. Even AFTER undergoing the same process that created mutha-effin' Vegetto, Kaioshin's still totally worthless.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:45 am

Kaboom wrote:Oh, to add another ignore-worthy idea to the list... Kaioshin's power. Particularly the out-of-nowhere concept that he's stronger than the beast that is Piccolo. It's a damn shame that Big Green needs to get downplayed in order to hype a character who turns out to be an incompetent, worthless, cowardly hack in the end. Even AFTER undergoing the same process that created mutha-effin' Vegetto, Kaioshin's still totally worthless.
Forget the power part, I say the entire character of the Supreme Kai is something that should be on the ignore list. :lol:

Sorry if I offended those who like the Supreme Kai, he always just irritated me.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:04 am

Something that annoys me? Episode 18... Horrible, horrible, episode 18. Not just because it's lame. Not just because it makes no sense that Goku's pod would still have power after over a quarter of a century. Not just because the filler plot creates a plot hole when Goku has to get to Namek. Not just because Piccolo's fight against Gohan is a complete ripoff of Jackie Chun's fight against Goku right down to the animation and attack. But because we're supposed to believe that Goku's pod... is on the uninhabited island where Piccolo is training Gohan? That that's where the elder Gohan just happened to be when he stumbled across it? You do remember it's an island, right, Toei? And wasn't Gohan supposed to be at least somewhere near his house when he found Goku? Well, in the anime at least, they live on Mt. Paozu, which, even after Gohan made it across the ocean, was still said to be a very long distance (by flying car, no less) from the island where he had been. But Piccolo just happened to take Goku's son back to the very same island where Goku had crash-landed as a baby? No. Just. No.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Thanos6 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:57 am

Kaboom wrote:Oh, to add another ignore-worthy idea to the list... Kaioshin's power. Particularly the out-of-nowhere concept that he's stronger than the beast that is Piccolo. It's a damn shame that Big Green needs to get downplayed in order to hype a character who turns out to be an incompetent, worthless, cowardly hack in the end. Even AFTER undergoing the same process that created mutha-effin' Vegetto, Kaioshin's still totally worthless.
Is it ever explicitly stated that Kaioshin's POWER is what makes Piccolo back down? I always thought it was just respect/fear of his divine status.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:01 am

Thanos6 wrote:
Is it ever explicitly stated that Kaioshin's POWER is what makes Piccolo back down? I always thought it was just respect/fear of his divine status.
I think it was stated in one of the Daizenshuu that Kaiohshin is outright stronger than Piccolo.

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Fin » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:58 am

Also, there's the bit where Goku asked Piccolo about why he surrendered. I don't have the book on me right now, but the Viz exchange went something like this;

Goku: Is he that strong?
Piccolo: Yes. He is a different order of being.

Piccolo wanted to focus on the fact of Kaioushin's status, but he didn't actually deny that he was stronger than him. In fact, he said yes!

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Silver Sinspawn » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:37 am

BobZ wrote:
coola wrote:Cooler: "I can transform one more time then Freeza! Sounds cool? Sorry,but I'm already in 4th form,so you`ll be able to see only one transformation"
Yeah, and what's up with the Cold family anyway? We only saw Freeza's forms. His father had a tad different skin colour and was in his second form? While his brother in his final form looked completely different as a whole. Their whole race seems fucked up. :lol: We just weren't given that much information about them and that's why I found it strange and guess just simply ignored it. I know they're CHANGE-lings and all, but aren't they supposed to look at least a bit similar or something? They actually do, but without following a specific pattern.

Technically, the race doesn't have an official name. but i just suppose that they look a bit similar when you think about it.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by BobZ » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:11 am

Of course, they do, it's obvious, but still... If their forms are there just to suppress the large amount of power they have in their original states, then they have different appearances in them. My head starts hurting. :lol: The mere fact that we've only seen 3 representatives of the whole race is enough to show that Akira didn't think it through and didn't provide additional information. Also, Cooler is a non-canon movie character, so he doesn't fit that much in the picture anyway.

Anyhoo, while browsing YouTube for Dragon Ball related videos, I stumbled upon some GT scenes with SSJ4 Goku and I started watching for good old times' sake. And I remembered Goku's new and amazing ability which came with his new transformation - the one to grow pants and shoes on himself. :mrgreen: It always seemed weird to me how he tore of his clothes when he turned into an Oozharu and then later when he changed to an adult Saiyan, he suddenly had *NEW* pants and shoes on in his size.
Of course, it would've been weird for him to be naked and fight like that, but that still doesn't explain it. The explanation here is that Toei did it just to cover his bottom part of the body, as they couldn't afford to have a naked man swinging his genitalia against his enemies (well, duh). So yeah, it's just one of those things you learn to simply ignore.

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kaboom » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:06 am

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:I think it was stated in one of the Daizenshuu that Kaiohshin is outright stronger than Piccolo.
Yeah, except the Daizenshuu seems to just be taking Piccolo's word for it, as there's no other basis for the idea in the manga itself. Nobody could sense Kaioshin's Ki, and they didn't know who he was (only Piccolo had an inkling, but he still thought he was "just" the Grand Kaio). So there was no way for Pic to actually tell how strong Kaioshin was. Piccolo either backed down based on a "gut feeling" or just by virtue of Kaioshin's status. (But regardless, if I don't have Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo when I make BP lists, the people at "other forums" throw a fit)

The same problem holds true and is applicable for this thread with Androids 17 and 18. Trunks thinks the Androids in his future are inexplicably weaker than the "prime" ones, mentioning that although he could hold his own against his, the ones in the past kicked his ass. But we can tell based on bits from the plot that it's more likely "his" Androids were merely toying with him while these ones didn't hold back. Because they had mostly wiped out humanity and were bored, for fun they had a tendency to fool their opponents into thinking they had a chance, only to beat them down and leave them to lick their wounds until last time. They did it with Gohan, and dialogue from right before their fitting deaths very strongly implied they'd been doing it with Trunks too.

But whatever bum was going through that part and compiling information for the Daizenshuu apparently didn't look past poor, confused, bonked-in-the-head little Trunks' one line, took his word for it, and listed that the future Androids are flat-out weaker than the present ones. Yet if one looks even a little bit farther than that, there's no actual precedence for that. Odds are, there's no difference in power between the alternate Androids; just differences in attitudes and goals.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by fig404 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:22 am

King Piccolo arc
-Piccolo's wish is granted, Shenlong dies, Kami/Popo fix him, dragon balls and wish are immediately restored
Frieza arc
-Gohan/Krillin make two wishes, Elder dies, Elder is revived with Earth dragon balls, dragon balls and Purunga are brought back with the dragon already summoned with only the wish they didn't use
Buu arc
-One wish is made, Shenlong is dismissed, the Earth and dragon balls are destroyed, Earth and dragon balls are wished back with one wish remaining and four(or six) months to be able to use it

The first time Shenlong was revived after dying, the wish was replenished. But every time after that, the dragon balls/wishes remained as they were before anything happened.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:39 am

To me, there has always been one stupid plot contrivance above all others.

Freeza crafted a galactic empire out of his strength and acquired technology. He was feared throughout space. Meanwhile, on Earth, which is a technologically primitive planet, some old guy just makes three androids far stronger than him. I'm not sure why Freeza was so pre-occupied with Super Saiyans when anyone with a wrench and a computer could've usurped him overnight.

Oh, and just for kicks, they are also almost as powerful as the highest pantheon of gods.

Wut.

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kaboom » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Dr. Gero was an absolute freakin' genius, that's how. If Freeza had stumbled upon Earth and discovered him, I'm sure he would have hired him if their goals meshed or destroyed the planet if they didn't.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by TenshinFan » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:52 pm

Cipher wrote:To me, there has always been one stupid plot contrivance above all others.

Freeza crafted a galactic empire out of his strength and acquired technology. He was feared throughout space. Meanwhile, on Earth, which is a technologically primitive planet, some old guy just makes three androids far stronger than him. I'm not sure why Freeza was so pre-occupied with Super Saiyans when anyone with a wrench and a computer could've usurped him overnight.

Oh, and just for kicks, they are also almost as powerful as the highest pantheon of gods.

Wut.
Yeah, I was always skeptical of the Androids being stronger than freaking Super Saiyans. But then again, where do you go from an intergalactic emperor?

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:49 pm

TenshinFan wrote:Yeah, I was always skeptical of the Androids being stronger than freaking Super Saiyans. But then again, where do you go from an intergalactic emperor?
Preferably somewhere less stupid, or at least more self-awarely stupid like Buu (who, even then, he was a demon designed to kill gods. That's pretty big stuff). But I'm not huge on the Cell arc as a whole.

It's like Toriyama was chomping at the bit to do a Terminator homage so bad that he didn't care how incongruous it was with the rest of the series. The answer is "very."
Dr. Gero was an absolute freakin' genius, that's how. If Freeza had stumbled upon Earth and discovered him, I'm sure he would have hired him if their goals meshed or destroyed the planet if they didn't.
Freeza had stumbled across thousands of planets and amassed the technology to sense ki, achieve intersteller flight, and have himself be rebuilt from about one-fourth of his body. And with all that, he never found anyone else who could sit down and just build something more powerful than him? Like, that was completely possible of being done, but only this one crackpot on Earth could do it? Can we go back to ridiculous Zenkai boosts again? Or Blue fighting Arale? I miss things being at least remotely plausible like that.

The same fault would apply to Baby/Dr. Myuu and some of their more ridiculously powerful Machine Mutants, but that's excusable because:

1) It was over twenty years after Freeza's defeat, and as far as I could tell, only Rildo and Luud could even go toe-to-toe with a Super Saiyan.

2) The technology was Tsufuru-based, and not made by some guy on Earth.

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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:36 pm

Well, it's not like it was ever explained why Freeza is so strong as well.

#19 and #20 had the ability to absorb ki which make them powerful, if the other Androids had that ability it would have probably been more believable.
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Re: Stupid things you've ignored.

Post by rereboy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:54 pm

Cipher wrote:Freeza had stumbled across thousands of planets and amassed the technology to sense ki, achieve intersteller flight, and have himself be rebuilt from about one-fourth of his body. And with all that, he never found anyone else who could sit down and just build something more powerful than him?
You said it yourself. He gathered his and his father`s scientists to rebuild his body. And did they make him a much more stronger body than before? No, not really. If Mecha-Freeza was actually stronger than the intact original Freeza, then he was only by a small margin, and I`m sure he would want the strongest and most powerful body his scientists could build.

Now compare that to the androids of Dr. Gero. He created cyborgs much, much more powerful than Mecha-Freeza, out of normal humans and a even more powerful robot.

Conclusion? Dr. Gero`s skills in robotics and cybernetics were way beyond anything any scientist that Freeza had ever met could do.

And if you think about it, its not that hard to figure out why. 17, 18 and 16 had infinite energy reactors. INFINITE! That`s incredible. I really don`t think any of Freeza`s men had come up with something like that.

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